The Bull Reincarnate II

[huerfanista]

@cripp7

Copy the contents (Art & XML) of the Assests into your CustomAssests folder. I repacked the rar file so you can just copy it into the Custom.

Got it working, and enabled events, so I'm good to go. Thanks for the help. I think the ability to build EP in a city will make it unnecessary to use the EP slider.

 

[ifinnem]

CoL should be a priority, but not THE priority.

Yeah I guess I wasn't quite clear - totally agree on basic techs like wheel, pottery, writ, myst etc.
For me the question is CoL vs Alpha vs Aesth as best immed use+trade bait
Agree on Monarch Alpha prob works.
For me prob CoL before Curr - can trade for that.
It does depend on our GP choice tho - if we plan to go GSpy-GS-Gspy then can delay CoL but otherwise need CH ASAP to run the spy in cap.

IMX, the early GSpy is very effective at quickly enabling tech stealing.

Mmm - let me try some more egs. In my experience it helps with u steal the odd tech pre-lib but still need solid commerce in order to tech well before all the EP buildings are available (post constitution)

I think it's very important to run other specialists, especially GSs in a GP farm (if we can set one up). However, I don't think we should run anything other than a spy in the capital until we've gotten a 2nd GSpy for SY there (this could be the 2nd or 3rd gp). Settled GSpy + SY plus CHs and spy specialists elsewhere will get us a ton of EPs. However, GSs are very useful for bulbing techs like phil, edu, lib, PP, chem, SM. We definitely want to try and get 3 GSs for bulbing the lib line, aiming to take constitution if we can (Jails).

We don't need to decide for sure now but I feel like if we generate a bunch of GS's we are not really being true to the variant. I'd prefer we go for at most 2 GS's prob just 1.
Basically 1 for the academy and maybe 1 for philo bulb (which if we get first discourages AIs from pursuing lib)
The good thing is our EPs will allow us to time lib well as we can see the AI's research

I also don't think it makes sense to have 2 GP farms - the capital has hi food, already has GPs from TGW so would be fastest source for any GP. I suggest after the first GSpy we run 2xsci and add 1xspy ASAP (at CoL) - whether we get a GSpy or GS doesn't really matter to us. If 2nd GP is a GSpy maybe then we consider an alternate temp GP farm to guarantee a GS or 2.
Only reason not to run sci in cap early IMHO is if need cap for superfast wker+settler production for REX

@cripp7
I think the ability to build EP in a city will make it unnecessary to use the EP slider.

I'm not so sure here - I agree it will be useful to boost EPs at times but not to replace the slider. The reason I think this is synergy:
If you plan to build EPs mostly then you need a "econ" with modifiers. However this has more synergy with offensive war and getting to space by having a ton of cities. (Hard to tech well with this economy unless you have many cities)
I think since we need to win by space a solid cottage core will be needed to tech effectively. Clearly we need to see how the land around us unfolds...

After we get CoL I think then beeline CS and hope to trade that for machinery.
Then go paper-edu and back trade/steal engineering ASAP for cheap castles

Either nat or constitution from lib and then we need to figure out path
democ if we have lots of cottages or otherwise beeline comm for int agency + kremlin + SP (better with based EPs)

@Cripp are you going to move the warrior & settler and repost? Not sure since I'm listed for turnset #1

 

[cripp7]

Lots of talk here, good. 1st GSpy is settled, 2nd SY. Yes running GSs in a GP farm would be good, can bulb techs we need. I think the capitol should be our GSpy hub. Getting the techs that produce CoL, Engineering, etc.. are a priority.

Moved the settler 1S, didn't move the warrior

Spoiler :

Found cow, looks like ocean next to it. Still be a decent city. Now we can go Mining>BW>Masonry>AH

I think going 15-20t for the first couple rounds would suffice.

 

[huerfanista]

Grass cows are good. I think we should delay AH until after mining/BW/masonry at least, although it's a good tile that should be improved soon. What kind of map is this? Looks like we're on the bottom end of a pretty small peninsula/island. Is Ifinnem going to play this one or Cripp7?

 

[ifinnem]

Got it
Hopefully play by tomorrow.

Pretty straight forward since we discussed at length on page 1
Min->BW will be as far as I get
WB->Warrior->wker (then WB) are the builds
Explore!

Looks like we can still get 5 grass cottages so that will pay the bills for a while

 

[ifinnem]

The adventure begins

Pretty straightforward set with only 1 piece of real excitement... (see below)
Just Pascal (Hindu founder) met so far. Interesting map

Inherited turn
Move warrior 1NW

T2
Settle and decide to still go fast WB despite 3F cow (work grasshill forest)

First hut 105 gold , 2nd hut...

Spoiler :

oh no I'm thinking - so much for early exploration...

Spoiler :

Wins with good odds thanks to a blessing from the RNG. Can you spot the crucial difference in pic below vs above?

I decided to promote him to woody since there is all that jungle to scout later and I need to promote him now else he'll take ages to heal

T9
Border pop so switch to plainshill forest

T13
Mining in, BW next

T15
WB completed -> fishing boats and work immediately
Pascal coverts to Hindu

T20
Grow to pop 2 so switch tiles to fish + plainshill forest: warr in 4 turns

What we can see so far

Spoiler :

Ridiculously early dotmap - main point here is to get the red city going soon as will be a great cottage city to finance things. Hopefully we have some more seafood near the gold in the SE

Spoiler :

I recommend the next warrior clears the fog near home while our original warrior heads around Pascal (clockwise) and back to the jungle to hopefully earn woody II and scout it out

EDIT: Save attached

 

[huerfanista]

Got it. Looks interesting. Luckily, huts in the middle of forests always spawn a forest on the hut tile, which saved our little brave's a$$. Finish warrior> worker> GW to size 4> settler> whip for 2 into GW. I should at least be able to get through masonry, I'd go AH> wheel after that. I can play tonight, but will wait for a couple of hours in case any discussion is desired.

 

[ifinnem]

Yup sounds good for now
Agree re tech order - then Pottery->Writing
We need to figure out the timing of the GPs with what techs we want after GW

You won't get settler out this turnset but whenever that point arrives we will clearly need to figure out city sites - thats next big discussion point imho

 

[huerfanista]

I mistakenly played to turn 45 - so shoot me! It hardly matters this early, though. Some good and bad this round:

T20 - inherited turn. I send the scouting warrior around the backside of Pacal's capital.

T24 - warrior done, start worker using fish + plains hill forest. He's sent to scout around the peninsula east and south.

T32 - First, the bad. Our scouting warrior finds a hut in the desert behind Mutal:

Not looking good. BW done, start masonry.

T33 - And the expected result:

2 barb huts in the first 45 turns - pretty bad luck there.

T35 - The next one isn't so bad:

58 isn't too bad. This was the newly built warrior, who I sent out scouting the rest of our peninsula. 2 good cities there, including a really nice GP farm (dotmap at the end of this post).

T38 - worker finishes and I sent him to pasture the cows, forgetting that we don't have AH - 1 turn wasted getting him to the grass hill to build a mine. Workboat started using fish + plains hill forest.

T41 - we get the shields event. All melee get free cover promo.

I send the warrior back over to explore the coastal fog to the west, revealing no new resources. He's sent back to the capital for needed once we get to size 4.

T45 - Masonry done, research set to AH but no have been put into it yet. I realize I played 5 turns too many and save. Here's the land that's been revealed so far:

Pacal's got a ton of floodplains - he'll undoubtedly be our early espionage target since he's financial. I expect there to be more AI's above the jungle belt, but we'll need to wait for a doggie to take a peak once the GW is in.

Here's my ideas for early dotmap.

I think the fish/cow spot has to be taken first. Luckily, I think Pacal will go south with his first settler to grab the gold/floodplains. Next should be the dye/rice - even though the northern half of the BFC is jungle, we can work the grass cow and cottage some nice grass riverside, plus there's a grass hill that can be mined, so it can be productive even before we get IW. The clam/rice/wheat to the SW should make a really nice GP farm, and the gold/clam will make a great moai city.

And the save:
View attachment Spying Bull BC-2875.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[cripp7]

Good work guys, it's a B&S map. I agree on city placements, but the rice/cow being one off the coast

IHT - press enter

Turn 46 - start worker chop, fortify warrior in BFC

Turn 47 - wb goes to clam, GW started

Turn 48 - clam netted, switch plains mine to clam. growth in 7t

Turn 55 - size 4 starting settler, revolt to slavery

Turn 60 - AH > TW

Turn 62 - 2pop settler

Turn 63 - settler ready, worker corralling cows

Spoiler :

The forest above the cow has 1 chop left for GW. I think switching to Mysticism would be best for the UB, then TW>Pottery.
Settler should grab cow/fish, then cow/rice. The dye city could be to the N-NW in the jungle. With 2xdye/cow/rice it's 1 off the coast losing coastal trade routes. The others Moai & GP look good for later.

 

[ifinnem]

Got it
We definitely need to talk about cities. Agree re fish+cow although wonder if we should be more aggressive.
Problem is since we lost our warrior we don't have an escort for the first settler...

 

[huerfanista]

I honestly don't see why the rice/cow has to be coastal - where I had it may technically be 1 off the coast, but it has no ocean/coast tiles in the BFC. Grabbing the dyes would claim more land and make it a great city IMO, and we can road to it pretty easily for the TR. There's no guarantee that there'll be food in that jungle. So put my vote down as 1NW of where you have it marked.

I also think it would be a much better move to grab the fish spot first - it'll block Pacal better. But I'm not sure it's a good idea to walk a naked settler over there. Use the capital warrior - there's 5 turns of growth before pop3, and he really isn't needed back until pop4. I'd also consider chopping out a dog right away. Working both mines with 1 chop should get him out in 1 turn if we wait until the turn the chop is ready to come in to start him. I think we can afford a forest here - we're gonna need him soon anyway for scouting.

Boy if this was an offline game, I'd we chopping out dogs to grab Mutal. with cover and CR1, they'd be easily good enough to get the job done against archers, especially if Pacal built some holkans and hooked up copper to build axes. Not suggesting it for this game, though. As long as we can grab a bunch of land to the north of him, he'll be a super target for espionage.

EDIT: re cow/rice city - it'll get TRs with our cities just from being riverside once sailing is in.

 

[ifinnem]

I honestly don't see why the rice/cow has to be coastal - where I had it may technically be 1 off the coast, but it has no ocean/coast tiles in the BFC. Grabbing the dyes would claim more land and make it a great city IMO, and we can road to it pretty easily for the TR. There's no guarantee that there'll be food in that jungle. So put my vote down as 1NW of where you have it marked.

fully agree - we have plenty coastal cities and as our main cottage city longterm, 1nw is much better

more thoughts to follow

 

[ifinnem]

A few notes / suggestions

1. Lets use different colors for each site on the dotmap - makes it easy to refer to. (Same color also can then mean alternatives for a single city) <see below>
2. Why is there only 15 overlflow from settler whip? We should whip for max overflow since that way we work more tiles for longer and can convert our high food tiles into for TGW
3. Not sure that partial chopping makes sense here (rather queue swap) as it wastes precious early game worker turns to move back onto the forest

Plan for my turnset
Techs: switch to Myst -> TW (since no roads will be built in next 15 turns anyway) -> pottery

At size 3 work cow+2xmines to get TGW out
With 2 chops this will take 14 turns so ~2075AD (don't think we can delay it for a dog right now)
Then dog timed with growing to sz4

Wker will pasture, 2x chop = 13 turns then move to gold mine at exact turn border pops then mine gold followed by road back to cap

Will send current warrior with settler and city 2 build order
WB (partial) -> tot pole -> WB -> WB (whip)
2nd WB is crucial for exploring since we have not met any other AIs + can see those islands S of us already

Points to consider beyond my turns
The dog after the TGW should be completed at no larger than size 4, then build worker warrior (timed with grow to size 5) then settler -that way we delay the warrior for a while w/o unhappy faces
That dog should scout W of us (N of Pascal) as ideally we want city #4 to block him from "our" jungle

City 3 (red) build gran->pole->lib (early border pop not NB since all food+cottage sites in first ring). Another reason for 1 "off the coast"

City placement

1. I assume we all agree the cities on our peninsula can be delayed
2. Order I propose green -> red -> blocking city N of Pascal (hopefully we find food) (see revised dotmap below)
3. I propose purple 1N of gold as it a) can then grow 3 cottages for cap b) saves a forest c) can share cap cow or fish as needed to whip d) moai is overrated esp w/o stone as will take ages to build and long time before happy cap allows all those tiles to be worked (BTW my site still has 12+water tiles)
4. Not sure I see need for 2nd GP farm - cap is plenty good enough. White city could grow a GS if needed but might serve better as future globe city

EDIT: We need a city soon as all current sites are low in this area - hopefully the city #4 can block + get this

Spoiler :

Will play in a few hours so let me know if any plans should be changed

 

[huerfanista]

Will send current warrior with settler and city 2 build order
WB (partial) -> tot pole -> WB -> WB (whip)
2nd WB is crucial for exploring since we have not met any other AIs + can see those islands S of us already

Why not chop the pole? Send worker over after last chop into GW - what else does he have to do in Cahokia? Otherwise, 2xWB sounds good. I have a feeling that the AIs are up north, and that south is just an island but we'll find out soon enough.

The dog after the TGW should be completed at no larger than size 4, then build worker warrior (timed with grow to size 5) then settler -that way we delay the warrior for a while w/o unhappy faces
That dog should scout W of us (N of Pascal) as ideally we want city #4 to block him from "our" jungle

Why not send the warrior back to the cap once GW is in? City 2 won't grow big enough to need patrol for a while. We can send the warrior over there from the cap once the 2nd warrior is done. Cap will go unhappy at pop4 w/o military.

Agree on city placement and build plans for city 3 (it's a ways off, though ). We should grow the cap to pop5 ASAP for worker/settler builds so we work all the good tiles. Good luck!

EDIT: We need a city soon as all current sites are low in this area - hopefully the city #4 can block + get this

Lots of hill W of the dye - let's hope there's some food there. We'll need a ton of workers for all that jungle, though.

 

[ifinnem]

Why not chop the pole? Send worker over after last chop into GW - what else does he have to do in Cahokia? Otherwise, 2xWB sounds good. I have a feeling that the AIs are up north, and that south is just an island but we'll find out soon enough.

He needs to mine the gold and road it to the cap for happy

Why not send the warrior back to the cap once GW is in? City 2 won't grow big enough to need patrol for a while. We can send the warrior over there from the cap once the 2nd warrior is done. Cap will go unhappy at pop4 w/o military.

Not a bad idea, but that means city 1 will be unhappy at 3 after a whip right?
Whip unhappy will where off so cap should be ok at size 4 w/o CG

 

[huerfanista]

He needs to mine the gold and road it to the cap for happy

When's the next border pop and, more importantly, when will the capital be going to pop 6? After all, we can't work the gold with a city yet, and we don't need the until pop6, and we'll be stagnating to build workers/settlers. Seems like there could be time to run over with the settler, chop, come back and road/mine gold. Seems more important to me to get city 2 productive (which only will happen after a border pop) quickly than to get the cap to pop6.

Not a bad idea, but that means city 1 will be unhappy at 3 after a whip right?
Whip unhappy will where off so cap should be ok at size 4 w/o CG

No, city will be fine at 3 w/o CG and 1 from whip. I think the whip will wear off 2 turns after reaching pop4. My idea was to use the warrior to escort the settler over (5 turns), then return once the city has settled (5 more turns). We can easily get the warrior back to the cap before it goes to pop4 (7 turns to fill the food bin at pop3 working cow + fish + grass hill mine (+6 ). That way we avoid any in the cap. I don't think there's any way barbs will enter borders before 2000BC on monarch (I think it's something like 1500BC), so city 2 should be safe and once GW is in it's a moot point. Surely we can get a CG over to city 2 before it reaches pop4, can't we? Even if not, it's better to have 1 there than in the cap, and we can whip it away on something.

 

[ifinnem]

Phase 1 successful

IHT
Switch to myst->wheel->pott
Send warrior + settler to green city site
T64
zzz
T66 Pascal founds Judiasm
If he becomes a friendly tech monster that will suit us well
T68
Found green city (Poverty Point), starts on WB (working plains forest)
Cap grows to size 3 - micro tiles to cow + 2xmines (means myst in 4 vs 3 turns now)
T69
chop into TGW
T70
Meet Boudalicious
T72
myst in
Switch Pov Point to Pole
T77
drum roll...
TGW complete! (dog next)
Micro cap to max growth (=high commerce too)
Send warrior back towards cap for CG duty
Worker starts to mine gold
T80
Cap grows to size 4
Wheel in

Stopped here so we are back on 20turn schedule

Cap will grow just before dog completes then I think we go worker->settler
Worker should road gold to cap via cows once mine is done

Nothing much new except Pascal's 2nd city borders are visible

Spoiler :

 

[ifinnem]

Really need to get that dog out exploring

 

[ifinnem]

When's the next border pop and, more importantly, when will the capital be going to pop 6? After all, we can't work the gold with a city yet, and we don't need the until pop6, and we'll be stagnating to build workers/settlers. Seems like there could be time to run over with the settler, chop, come back and road/mine gold. Seems more important to me to get city 2 productive (which only will happen after a border pop) quickly than to get the cap to pop6.

Sorry missed this before I played - perhaps could have been convinced otherwise but I feel like all those wasted worker turns hiking there and back don't make sense.
At this stage gold mine + road to cap will take 12 turns and dog+worker 2 will take ~12 turns too.
Pov point will be done with pole manually in 7 turns so I think this was the right way to go - sending the worker to chop would have only shaved 3 turns off the pole completion time so not worth it imho

Now we can go dog-wker-dog (cap grows to size 6) then settler as we are in need of explorer + CG for city 3 anyway

EDIT: worker #2 can chop WBs in city 2 instead