The Case for Heroic Epic

[Provolution]

The Case for Heroic Epic

I am more than interested, of course as I am "Warlord", to build Heroic Epic in Berlin. We now qualifies for Heroic Epic with several promotion X 4 units.
This allows us a production rate of 100 % production bonus for troops, that is double as fast as normal. If we could build this in Berlin, that would be the best place poised for reinforcements in the many wars against Germans and Romans.
If we lose four units per city, we are to lose 40 (forty) units that needs to be replaced. As we are not getting Engineering and roads anytime very soon, I suggest to build the troops near where the battle takes place.

Heroic Epic fits this nicely, and the expanded cultural border may increase in time for us to turn on Rome.

Heroic Epic requires literature (we need three turns of research)
Heroic Epic should take advantage of Organized Religion when we have it

Therefore I suggest putting a slight detour to our technology research, by adding literature right after Guilds before Banking. This allows us three more turns to build buildings at a quicker rate, as I suggest changing the following civics:

Bureaucracy - Vassalage (this ties in with the Case for Vassalage)
Organized Religion - Paganism (ideally Theology)
Decentralization - Mercantlism

Since we are not able to build Grocers in time where we want to, adding Literature now gives us that time to build more of those, before we turn on Banking.

Literature also unlocks "National Epic" which can be built in another premium city requiring more culture.

 

[DaveShack]

We're going to want to build more buildings after banking -- banks. The gold that banks will give us will more than offset staying in OR to build them. I think we'll be beyond our fiscal crisis by then too.

I like the idea of literature and the epics.

 

[Provolution]

You may be right DS, about keeping OR, giving it second thoughts.

Vassalage may still be great for a short and defined period, and adding literature now, allows us to make Berlin a 200 % producer of reinforcements for the many Northern Wars, with 10 cities to take (at least).

I still think that adding literature now in a little detour after Guilds, fit in with our war plan, as Heroic Epic takes 10-15 turns to build. National Epic is more a Great Person question, and leave that to the civil people.

 

[dutchfire]

I'd prefer Banking before Literature actually.

 

[fed1943]

To build Heroic Epic,yes. In Berlin,no.

Berlin has 1 grass/hill, 1 grass/hill/forest,1 grass/horses,1 plain/cows, 1 grass/
/forest and 2 plain/forest, that's true.
But also has 5 flood plain, 1 gold, 2 wine, 11 river tiles.

Much more points to a commercial route or even GPfarm, not a powerhouse.

Riversight or Coppertown look the best candidates to HE.

Best regards,

 

[Provolution]

I can compromise on Coppertown then

We just need literature now, as we need it (Heroic Epic) before phase 3 in the war (we are phase 2).

 

[Methos]

I'd prefer Banking before Literature actually.

I'd have to agree. Without doing any save looking, I'd have to say Banking is too strong a benefit for us right now to put it off any longer. Our economy is getting worse and worse. The benefits of Mercantilism are tremendous, especially when you consider you could put one merchant specialist in every city if needed. That right there is a lot of extra /t. Plus the benefits of building a bank.

HE is nice, but I seriously believe we need to get our economy a little stronger before we start taking everyone out. Literature allows us to build libraries which our definitely nice, but they don't help our economy, nor does HE.

I like HE and agree we need it, but not at the cost of putting off Banking.

 

[Joe Harker]

I said in another thread, but Riversight has a higher production

 

[Provolution]

Then we all agree we need 30 turns or so for all the warfare?

If we do war on the cheap, it is slow.

Putting off HE, definately calls for Vassalage as we get mercantilism.

 

[Conroe]

Based upon the production graph, I really don't think HE should be high on the list of priorities. I would also continue to urge the research of Compass and Optics, especially over Literature. We already know that the other continent has Literature. And hopefully we won't find an HC or a Mansa over there. We're taking a risk by leaving them in isolation.

 

[Provolution]

HE is key for city specialization in a warzone, and the epics should not be underestimated.

Compass and other techs will come out of the same wars, so you better help funding it!

 

[Conroe]

HE is key for city specialization in a warzone, and the epics should not be underestimated.

I'm not underestimating anything.

 

[dutchfire]

Based upon the production graph, I really don't think HE should be high on the list of priorities. I would also continue to urge the research of Compass and Optics, especially over Literature. We already know that the other continent has Literature. And hopefully we won't find an HC or a Mansa over there. We're taking a risk by leaving them in isolation.

No islam or liberalism yet AFAIK. That's pretty positive IMO, we could even be first to liberalism if we really wanted to

 

[Provolution]

This is why you can handle Literature for 3 turns, so we can gear or reinforcement flow. This is also a logistical question. This delay the need for engineering a bit, and we can do it like this:

Banking-Literature (Germans give us Compass for peace at the same time) - Optics (sending out explorer and caravel) and then Engineering again.

 

[Conroe]

No islam or liberalism yet AFAIK. That's pretty positive IMO,

I agree. Very positive!

I'm just concerned that if we dawdle too long, we will have nothing of value to trade. Despite the plan for pointy-stick research, I'm not optimistic of getting a lot from it. Our trading options are severely narrow at this point. But who knows, maybe I'm worried for nothing. It might be Izzy and Monty duking it out on the other continent, instead of HC and Mansa and Saladin all living peacefully side-by-side. We won't know until we cross the pond. And that is my point.


Edit: Actually, these last 3 posts probably should belong in the newly created "Tech Planning" thread. Sorry 'bout that.

 

[Provolution]

Well, feed the warmachine what it deserves and requires. Put up HE up north and give us vassalage for 20 turns, and the fuel will quicken the war and allow you to specialize the economy once the war is over.

I am against this strategy of doing everything 20 %, and we slowly drift allover the place. Make this final war quick and superior, not a slow drag.

 

[Conroe]

Well, feed the warmachine what it deserves and requires. Put up HE up north and give us vassalage for 20 turns, and the fuel will quicken the war and allow you to specialize the economy once the war is over.

I am against this strategy of doing everything 20 %, and we slowly drift allover the place. Make this final war quick and superior, not a slow drag.

I'm glad you finally agree! No more waiting 4 turns before attacking cities, then?

The thing is that HE and Vassalage are not necessary to finish the war. Take a look at the production and power graphs. The war is won. Stop trying to out think the AI and go take the cities.

 

[Methos]

After further thought I'd say Literature is a waste. We don't need HE and I really hate researching something that someone else already knows. If anything we need to meet our neighbors overseas and trade for it, rather than waste precious turns on it.

 

[Provolution]

then we should win the war and make Germany give us Compass, and we go Optics. Make sure we take 2 cities then, in the polls.

 

[ordinaryguy]

I can compromise on Coppertown then

We just need literature now, as we need it (Heroic Epic) before phase 3 in the war (we are phase 2).

I said in another thread, but Riversight has a higher production

But Coppertown is nearer to the battlefield and has nothing better but units to build . And when I get the time, I'll micromanage and plan to improve its production.