The City Site Versus thread

[G-Max]

Sometimes, two pretty decent city sites are right next to each other, so you can't build them both. So which do you choose? Sheer muscle, or historical significance?

I'll start.

Budapest vs. Zagreb

Zagreb if I'm really hell-bent on winning; otherwise, Budapest. With Zagreb, you're giving up one iron now for a copper later and an aluminum much later, which I think is the best course if you're thinking ultra-long-term, but it's not like it makes that much of a difference. When I go with Zagreb, I just remind myself that it's not as if Hungary has that much more historical significance than Croatia...

Warsaw vs Vilnius

This obviously depends on who gets to the region first, but assuming that I get there before the Russians do, the bottom line is that it's 2 special resources versus 5. I have a good respect for historical importance, but seriously, Lithuanian and Polish history both consist mostly of getting raped by Russians and Germans over and over and over. The only reason you hear about Warsaw but not Vilnius is that Warsaw is the capital of a bigger country.

 

[civ_king]

Sometimes, two pretty decent city sites are right next to each other, so you can't build them both. So which do you choose? Sheer muscle, or historical significance?

I'll start.

Budapest vs. Zagreb

Zagreb if I'm really hell-bent on winning; otherwise, Budapest. With Zagreb, you're giving up one iron now for a copper later and an aluminum much later, which I think is the best course if you're thinking ultra-long-term, but it's not like it makes that much of a difference. When I go with Zagreb, I just remind myself that it's not as if Hungary has that much more historical significance than Croatia...

Warsaw vs Vilnius

This obviously depends on who gets to the region first, but assuming that I get there before the Russians do, the bottom line is that it's 2 special resources versus 5. I have a good respect for historical importance, but seriously, Lithuanian and Polish history both consist mostly of getting raped by Russians and Germans over and over and over. The only reason you hear about Warsaw but not Vilnius is that Warsaw is the capital of a bigger country.

You forgot this one time when Poland owned Russia in a war and captured Moscow!

 

[keli]

I would say Budapest, but only cuz I'm Hungarian

 

[Leoreth]

I'm assuming you're talking about Germany here? Then the answer is obvious: don't settle Berlin, and Budapest becomes clearly better. Instead make Frankfurt your capital, found Danzig and instead of your other two, Reval in the Baltic.

 

[G-Max]

You forgot this one time when Poland owned Russia in a war and captured Moscow!

According to the article, they didn't really "capture" Moscow so much as they were invited in during a Russian civil war. But yeah, I've been learning a lot about Central/Eastern European history today. The Poles should definitely be a playable civilization in future Civ games. The Hungarians, too.

I would say Budapest, but only cuz I'm Hungarian

Cool. One of my former roommates is from Hungary. His name is Attila Megyeri. He claims to be a painter, but I suspect that his real job is pillaging central Europe

 

[Leoreth]

If that's not a badass name, I don't know what is

 

[G-Max]

I'm assuming you're talking about Germany here?

Any nation you want.

don't settle Berlin

WHAT WHAT WHAT?!?

 

[blizzrd]

Any nation you want.



WHAT WHAT WHAT?!?

This is madness!

No, no it isn't. I have never settled Berlin when playing Germany (or any other civ for that matter) that I can recall. Absolutely terrible city location, compared to the other clearly superior options immediately close by.

 

[G-Max]

 

[Leoreth]

You're talking about optimal city locations here, so moving the capital should definitely be open to debate.

And right after Angkor and Nidaros, Berlin is definitely among those capitals that need to be moved.

 

[SilchasRuin]

Berlin isn't actually that bad, it'sannoying its not on the coast, but because of all the rivers and grassland tiles, with watermills and workshops/cottages (depends on whether you're going for production or commerce) it becomes a nice sister city to Frankfurt. All the forests nearby, and a high population means you can chop and whip in the early game to get the infrastructure going. As for the culture argument for having Frankfurt as capital, pushing the French and Dutch away, I think that Berlin is a better location for a capital. Just build cultural buildings and wonders in Frankfurt, and Berlin's culture keeps the Dutch in Amsterdam, and out of Denmark and that area. So, yes, Berlin is fine.

 

[kairob]

I am working on an alternate map mainly for myself (although I might post once complete) for DoC, part of which involves resource redistribution so each area has about the same relative value but different cities become more valuable. An example of this is moving the cows from SW to NE and giving Berlin a river. Suddenly being coastal loses the river and moving east of Berlin poses no great advantage, now the are good arguments for all of those 3 tiles but historical players wont be penalised as much as Berlin is still a top option.

Also I think this helps the AI as they aren't being penalised from poor capitals that the AI wouldn't go for.

 

[Leoreth]

Berlin has neither river nor coast, which Danzig both has. Danzig also fits better into the Eastern Europe city placement, filling out the area nearly completely together with Reval and Kiev.

It also frees up resources to make Frankfurt and Budapest even more viable. So it's not only the location that's bad, but also its relation to the other cities.

And Germany's spawn isn't even historical. A more fitting Berlin tile would probably be 1W of the spawn (it's incidentally also named Berlin).

 

[kairob]

fair play, I am still experimenting with Germany at the moment, thanks.

 

[G-Max]

And Germany's spawn isn't even historical. A more fitting Berlin tile would probably be 1W of the spawn (it's incidentally also named Berlin).

It's hard to talk about where a city would really be on a map that's deliberately unrealistic.

 

[Leoreth]

Please stop pretending we're at a certain image board (the autocensor won't even let me write its name) here, it gets annoying.

And of course you can pin down a more realistic position. Just because the map differs from reality doesn't mean it's suddenly magic fairy tale land.

 

[G-Max]

And of course you can pin down a more realistic position. Just because the map differs from reality doesn't mean it's suddenly magic fairy tale land.

No, it's magic funhouse mirror land instead.

EDIT: I've been experimenting with this "Germany without Berlin" concept, and it looks interesting, albeit only for the super-hardcore who care only about winning, history be damned (who probably shouldn't be playing RFC anyway if they have that kind of disregard for history). Given that Budapest already has access to the copper and Frankfurt already has the cows, settling 1 tile NE of Berlin (AKA Danzig) instead of Berlin loses you nothing, but gains you pigs (which spares you from settling Copenhagen), horses (which spares you from settling Warsaw or Wilna), and fish. But then where does the last Settler go? Aarhus isn't much better than Copenhagen. What is this "Reval" of which you speak? I hope it's not in Russian-flip territory.

I'm not quite convinced yet. Copenhagen/Zagreb/Wilna still seems to grab the most resources while keeping me safely enough away from the Russkies.

EDIT #2: I found Reval. Are you f***ing joking me? You want me to give up Wilna's deer and cows AND Zagreb's copper and aluminum just so I can lose a city to the Russians and/or start a premature war with them?

 

[Llama231]

Per personal choices and questions (though not in every situation, it usually depends on the surrounding cities):

San Fransisco v. Los Angles
Wichita>Denver (Though Denver has better production, it is not by much.)
Food Chcago v. Production Chicago>Detroit
Philadelphia>New York, etc.
Tenochtitlan<1 NE
London v. Southampton
Amiens>Paris (Though the dutch can get annoying.)
Frankfurt 1N>>>>>>>>>>Frankfurt
Danzig>Berlin
Bordeaux could do moved north and/or to a river.
Rome v. Arretium
Lisbon v. Lisbon 1N
Zagreb>Budapest (But Budapest is easier to use.)
Kiev 1N>Kiev
Riga on river v. Riga north of that
Ryazan>Moscow
Novograd>St. Petersburg
Constantinople v. 1W
On marble>Athens (One of the few cases where I sacrifice resources.)
Akkad v. Assur>Babylon
City between Sur and Jerusalem>Both
Niwt-Rst<1N
Delhi v. ???
City in India on the SE coast on hill v. 1SW
Partha<1S (Lets Shush have amazing production.)
Beijing v. On the coast
Korea<on Deer (Another exception.)
Tokyo v. Hiroshima (Taking into account other cities.)
Edo v. Edo 1N

That should do for now.


Edit: Germany: Frankfurt flip as Capitol (too bad that it is not 1N), Danzig, Budapest, and Kiev (wait one turn after arriving to avoid Russian flip.) Now you can outproduce anyone for pretty much the entire game.

 

[G-Max]

Kiev (wait one turn after arriving to avoid Russian flip.) Now you can outproduce anyone for pretty much the entire game.

Kiev is (a) in your red zone, and (b) in Russia's green zone. When aiming for a German UHV, you want to avoid as many unnecessary redzone cities as possible (just capture the capital and wait for the civ to collapse). Meanwhile, having a city where the Russians want to put one is likely to piss them off, which will definitely lead to worse relations and possibly drag you into a war with them before you're ready.

 

[Llama231]

Kiev is (a) in your red zone, and (b) in Russia's green zone.

With only 4 cities, stability should not be an issue for a while. Also, Kiev is red for everyone but Russia and the Vikings, but even then only Orange for the former and yellow for the latter. Unless I am reading the maps wrong, Kiev is in its own core area. http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Rhye's_and_Fall_of_Civilization_stability_maps

When aiming for a German UHV, you want to avoid as many unnecessary redzone cities as possible (just capture the capital and wait for the civ to collapse).

Or just wait for Panzers, spam them from 4 cities that can produce 1 a turn, and then crush Europe, recapturing after collapse as necessary.

Meanwhile, having a city where the Russians want to put one is likely to piss them off, which will definitely lead to worse relations and possibly drag you into a war with them before you're ready.

From my experience, Kiev can outproduce Russia. Even one time (On Viceroy, I have to admit, but it was amazing) I accidentally settled Kiev before Russia spawned. I refused the flip, so my defensive units all ran off to Russia, but since I was able to build a unit each turn (even without infrastructure and resources, and a low population) I could hold off the invasion of flipped units until they stopped flipping. Another time, I settled Kiev as England, and was far separated from the rest of my empire. Russia decided that they wanted my amazing city, so they swarmed in with Cossaks. Since Kiev actually had infrastructure this time, I spammed some defensive units, and held them off for a hundredish years before I decided to invade them to get them to stop. All with just Kiev's production. As far as I have seen, Kiev>the entirety of Russia, at least with the AI's derpin'. And I am not very good at this game.