The Civilization II HOF Thread!

by gonzo_for_civ:

I am also considering limiting it to the top 10 in each also instead of 17 and 13 and stuff like that like it is now.

Hi Gonzo, if you're the dude in charge of the HOF (e.g., making the final decisions), I have some input. :)

The main purposes of the HOF are for people to see their work rewarded in some fashion, and to create participation the CivFanatics. It would be a shame change the rules, plunge the dagger, and cast out those who are not in the top ten. It costs no extra money to have a few more lines of entries, and it is extraordinarily easy to add new entries.

The exception is that if a person submits a higher game in one category that the prior game is removed when his/her new one is posted. In other words, a person may have only one entry per category.

Every qualified game that someone plays and submits represents a lot of effort, and so should be recognized the the player goes to the trouble to submit it, even if the result is 20 or 30 entries in a category.

So let's not cut out people, but pack them in. In fact, I have some ideas about how the HOF should be expanded to other areas, like the OCC. :)

 
Good points starlifter. Unfortunately, SOME sort of limit will have to be established to keep the page from growing too large. There would be several hundred submissions on the page. I think the limit will be 15 or 20 instead of 10 though. I would like to hear your ideas for OCC and other things through e-mail as soon as possible, since I am preparing for a new update soon!
 
In case anyone is wondering, I have been busy and will leave and get back in town tomorrow and post a text file with unofficial results tuesday or monday.
 
Sorry for the LOONNNNGGGGGGG wait!

I'm doing the updates now but here's a little crowd pleaser. Presenting the NEW deity HOF in .txt format :)

Just open up the file to see the outline of the new Deity HOF. It'll be a little while until I'm done w/the main site HOF update but you can look at those for now. Those are for the most part official and verified except there may be one or 2 more games for it(of all the submissions on all difficulties about 4 didn't list a difficulty). Well here goes!
 
I'd like to try a HOF game but the rules are not really clear to me. Can someone help?

"Please only play on randomly-generated maps or world maps. We no longer accept custom map games."

Do I use START A NEW GAME and don't use CUSTOMIZE WORLD.

SANG makes maps that have only little islands and others that have big continents . Only continents are big enough for many cities. So I don't turn on cheat mode can I use my MGE map edit to see if the map is any good.

Is it OK to use CUSTOMIZE GAME RULES. I like a flat earth so I dont need defense in as many directions?

Where do I find world maps and that are OK to use? I can't find any untouched maps in MGE.


"DO NOT CHEAT! If you use Cheat mode, your game will NOT be added even if it's 3000%."

I see that re loading goody huts is probably a cheat. But can I end a turn and see that I forgot to change what a city is building or another mistake and re load game to fix it? Is this different from re loading goody huts?

In HOF games there are airfields on hills and food freights and different number of civs and barbs. Are these all OK?

In my game if I start a new game and do nothing and save it and then re load at once the cheat flag is on but theres no CHEAT MODE sign in my civ score. What should I do. I have tried re installing Civ?

Are there other things I shouldn't do?
 
I belive you can use Customize World, but not use a custom map. A custom map would be one that you (or someone else) made on their own. This is to try and avoid people from making maps with already converted terrain and so that people don't know what the map already looks like. So, no, you can't preview the map. Basically it should be a computer generated random map.

You should be able to start a random map, with whatever settings you prefer. Map size, number of civs, restarts, barb levels, etc.

I would suggest keeping your 4000BC save. I don't think it's technically a requirement, but it should be and may be sometime.

I think, technically speaking, reloading the game for any reason is considered cheating.

Airfields are still considered ok as are food freights.

Be sure to check the site page and/or this thread to make sure the rules don't change as you are playing your game.

Once you are done, send your saved games to gonzo@civfanatics.com
 
As far as your game showing cheat moda active, you need to uninstall your game as well as remove every file that is in your directory, excluding saved games and scenarios. Then reinstall the game and any patches and see if that works. If not, post about it in the Civ 2 Technical Support thread.
 
:rolleyes:

You don't need to do anything like that. It's a Civ2 bug, and it won't go away. Civ2 just isn't very good at forgetting the previous game. Another example, if you conquer the world, but quit before the game ends, you will win immediately if you start a new game right after.

The only solution to this problem: Quit Civ2 and then start it up again.
 
Originally posted by Mercator
:rolleyes:

You don't need to do anything like that. It's a Civ2 bug, and it won't go away. Civ2 just isn't very good at forgetting the previous game. Another example, if you conquer the world, but quit before the game ends, you will win immediately if you start a new game right after.

The only solution to this problem: Quit Civ2 and then start it up again.

You are correct that it is a bug, but you are not correct that it will not go away. I had the same thing happening on my system at one point and was able to fix it.

Here's the thread that I got it fixed in and the thread at Poly that talked about it also.
 
I think, technically speaking, reloading the game for any reason is considered cheating.

There is one exception. If you accidentaly move a unit that you MEANT to move somewhere else, you can reload that turn only and play everything exactly as it was excluding that one piece, obviously not worth it if it wasn't important.

Anyways, hopefully I'll get off my ass soon and finish these updates :o
 
Originally posted by Zelig
The link to the thread that you got it fixed in here doesn't work for me.

Hmm, let's try it again....

Here's what the post said:
On Edit: Here's what I did to get cheat mode to be unchecked. I had to try it twice becuase the first time didn't do it.

I uninstalled the game, and then reinstalled it. The same issue existed, once I reloaded a game, it would be toggled again.

The second attempt I did a bit more like was suggested. I uninstalled the game, self deleted everything that was not a saved game (even a video folder that existed), then restarted the computer. I then reinstalled the game and it works! Even after intentionally turning cheat mode on and then reloading it was off again.

I'm not sure if it was deleting all the left over files that did it, or the restart in between, but I'm good to go for now.

Thanks Smash and the guys who helped at Apolyton.
 
I had that problem too. Never found out what caused it, but after following DoM's advice, it went away. I had to delete all of the files left over in the game folder after uninstalling the game. That did it!
 
Some of the replies to Tackaberry's post of a week ago on this thread started me thinking about the purpose and rules of the HOF, particularly the Deity category.

The stated purpose of the HOF is clear, to provide recognition for those who have mastered this form of CIV2 play. Similar, formal recognition is provided for participants in CIV 3, and in CIV 2 and CIV 3 GOTM's. In less formal types of special game play such as OCC, earliest landing on Alpha Centauri, fastest completion of the MGE WWII scenario playing one of the minor powers and so on there are posted acknowledgements from other participating players. Obviously everyone likes to be acknowledged for good game play. I think CFC and Gonzo should be applauded for their effort to revive a rather moribund CIV 2 HOF.

However, as I looked at the set-up and rules of the HOF, my conclusions can best be summarized by the immortal words of one Vulcan Star Fleet officer: "These are not logical.".

In the years since CIV 2 was released, very able analytical minds have analyzed various aspects of the game. They have dicovered not only the algorithms that drive the game but also ways to take advantage of them and even circumvent them. Simultaneosly, all players have been continuously and successfully looking for ways to beat the system. This growing body of "tricks of the trade" has had to be countered in organized games such as GOTM by creating lists of allowed and not allowed cheats, tricks and shortcuts.

I think that everything must have been well thought out when the HOF was originally set up. However, both the original rules and HOF set-up appear to have been overtaken by new discoveries in game play and by more recent software.

Consider the top three Deity entries. The top two, Shadowdale and Andu Indorin, both used the perfectly acceptable FCT to maximize city size. Starlifter who sits third did not use FCT, I believe as a matter of personal preference. As far as I can tell, no one else on the list used FCT, for whatever reason(s). Considering that the maximum possible score is 39852 when FCT is used (my calculation)and approximately 16000 without FCT (Starlifter's estimate), in my opinion Starlifters achievement of 15,500 out of a possible 16,000 is more impressive than Shadowdale's 26,271 out of 39,852. As FCT can make such a large difference is there really much point to grouping scores achieved using FCT with scores reached without it?

HOF rules state that "Please only play on randomly-generated maps or world maps". To see what whole world maps are available I did a short tour of CIV II sites on the Net and now have ~20 zipped world maps ranging in size from 10,000 squares to a humungous 40,000+ squares. All of us know what a world map looks like and I'm willing to bet that within 20 turns of a random start on any world map most of us would have a pretty good idea of where we started as well as the approximate layout of the rest of the map. This advantage is not available when starting with a randomly generated map.

Furthermore, given the option of playing either on a random 10,000 square map (I assume that use of oversize map generators is a no-no) or a much larger world map, I suspect that many if not nearly all players would opt for the larger map. It offers several potential advantages to anyone trying to run up the score: no need to overlap cities, many more goody huts, longer trade routes, less chance of hostile contact early in the game and so on. As the present rules do not specify the size of world map that can be used, my perception is that the presently allowed choice of game maps creates an imbalance.


I would suggest that:

1. The Deity classification is modified to exclude FCT and allow only randomly generated maps up to 10,000 squares. This would eliminate both of the problems outlined above.

2. That a new "Open" category is created where FCT, all world maps (whole or partial) and random maps greater than 10,000 squares are permitted. Existing entries that no longer qualify for the Deity classification would be switched to Open. No one would lose their entry. This would be an "anything goes" category with minimal rules that hopefully would not need to be modified at some future date. Here one could employ all the tricks of the trade. The presently "orphan" custom map entries could be included. The possibility and consequences of having a single rule, "Do not use the Cheat Mode!", should be considered.

3. That at least 4 game saves, saved at prescribed times, must be included in submissions, as is now the case for both GOTM and the CIV 3 HOF. The Duke of Marlborough (Feb. 24 post)has already suggested that 4000 BC games be saved as a matter of course.




I don't know whether or not the DOM's (Feb. 24 post) advice "Be sure to check the site page and/or this thread to make sure the rules don't change as you are playing your game." is meant to imply that rule changes are coming in the near future. I hope so. The present rules need both clarification and modification. :thumbsup:
 
Originally posted by gonzo_for_civ

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I think, technically speaking, reloading the game for any reason is considered cheating.
--------------------------------------------------------------

There is one exception. If you accidentaly move a unit that you MEANT to move somewhere else, you can reload that turn only and play everything exactly as it was excluding that one piece, obviously not worth it if it wasn't important.
I ran into the following situation a couple of years ago.

IIRC the setting was: Deity, mid-game, Democracy, founding "filler" cities on small map.
One city founded on plains square with nearby wheat.
Two trade arrows from city square, no others available within city radius.
Problem: If wheat square worked, city goes into disorder. If not worked, no growth. Getting to size 2 will fix problem.
No way to put road on wheat square, engineers busy elsewhere on basic road network.
Solution: Work wheat square for two turns and idle it on the third as a 2/3 growth rate is preferable to 0.
Establish simple pattern of two turns of city disorder followed by one turn to return to contentment. Everything copacetic.
Save game at end of turn, turn computer off, resume game next day, forget which phase of cycle I'm on, click on End Turn.
Problem: Ooooops! I got revolting citizens, falling government and ANARCHY!!!
Preferred Solution: Re-load last save and take wheat square out of production. No other change(s) required.

Question: Is this legit or not?
 
Something about having my "Alexander" game placed in the same category with Shadowdale's "flawed" game required a response. When I commenced my "Alexander" game, I wanted to put my "strategy" of Modernization to the test within the context of a "minimalist" (i.e., non-ICS) approach. Insofar as the Food Caravan Trick was used in this game, its application needs to be understood within the context of the aesthetics to which I try to adhere when playing the game of Civ2.

To begin with, I set the original map variables to a more challenging environmental setting: Arid, Warm, 3 billion years of age. In this game, the randomly generated results included one of the largest mountain ranges I've ever seen, as well as one of the largest desert expanses I've ever seen. These presented challenges to expansion and settlement of an entire world, a worthy challenge to the strategy of Modernization, especially when using a minimalist approach. And for what it's worth, my map was a standard 75x120 large map, a 1000 squares less than the proposed maximum.

Unlike most players, I generally do not level mountains and hills; and unless a hill has a wine resource, I do not irrigate hills. As a mountaineer from Colorado, I've always felt guilty about transforming mountains and hills into grasslands, even when faced with the necessity of improving my World Trade city. That wonderful mountain range that I converted to a "barbarian perserve"/"training ground" for my colonists en route to Alpha Centauri (in case we needed to kick some alien but when we get there) could have provided room for another six or seven cities, which would have still left me short of the maximum number of cities. This is an aesthetic consideration; but after my Annales of Rome game, I realized that the FCT could be used as a substitute for the wholesale "flattening" of the world via engineers. (My use of the FCT in that game was inspired by a map in the Times Atlas of World History that showed the trade routes involved in feeding Rome at its heighth; it struck me as good material for a Timeline.)

In addition to attempting to maintain the topography of my world, I also have gone out of my way to replant the forests that I've cut down in promoting the growth of my civilization. Again, this is an aesthetic consideration. In this game, if I recall correctly, I reforested around 200 squares across the map. And considering that some of this terrain was originally tundra and desert -- not to mention an island or two -- well, let's just say that as a retired Druid, I'm not supposed to be cutting down those trees in the first place. But it is also becomes a measurement of the power of an Modernized economy that I can "waste" my engineers pursuing aesthetics.

It is also worth noting, again as a matter of aesthetics, that I do not use the Airbase cheat. This "bug" in the system was never intended by designers to provide the advantages to food production that it does. Furthermore, I also take the time to "clean-up" unused fortifications and "rationalize" my railroads. And I don't engage in the practice of "leveling" AI cities because I don't like their placement, and will reestablish those cities that I do level in the course of war.

It is within this context that my use of the FCT should be understood, especially in terms of how I distributed food freight and the resulting population growth to provide a demographic and histrorical representation of the growth and expansion of my civilization across the world. The distributional principles involved are drawn from the concept of the world-economy, as described by Braudel in The Mediterranean and the Mediterranean World in the Age of Philip II and Perspectives of the World: Vol. III of Capitalism and Civilization, 15th-18th Centuries; and by Wallerstein in The Modern World System. Hence, my Capital and World Trade City of Delphi, center of the world-economy, has an end-game population of 90. An inner core of 15 additional cities each have a population of 60; in all, these sixteen cities represent those 16 cities I had established prior to about 1500 -- the "minimalist" limit within which I played the game, and the "core" of my civilization. Next in order of precedence are an additional fourteen cities at a population of 54, which represent the first part of the "semi-periphery": nine additional Greek cities founded and five French cities conquered prior to 1750 (the first five cities conquered since before 1 a.d. and therefore not apart of the core). Next comes the second part of the "semi-periphery": four Celtic, five Aztec, ten Persian, and another French city conquered between 1750 and circa 1850, each with a population of 48. Finally, there are the rest of the cities of the "periphery", with populations of 32, 36, or 40; Greek cities founded after c. 1800, and cities conquered after c. 1850. (I might add that every Greek city name on the map is an authentic, ancient Greek city name; another aesthetic touch, and one that required digging up names from four different books.)

To be sure, one does gain additional points for the use of the FCT. But one does not gain additional points for aesthetic considerations such as population distribution, replanting forests, and maintaing scenic mountains and hills. And the FCT can be a measurement of "strength of play." To be sure, when I ended the game in 1960, having achieved FT 255 and having fully "terraformed" the world according to my aesthetics, I had been running food freight extensively for only around thirty turns. Had I continued to maintain full productive capacity and continued to push food freight around ... well, anyone can do that math.

What I am saying is that a well-played game need not be judged by the restrictive criteria of final point score. Like starlifter's game, my "Alexander" game should be judged as a fine example of the Power Democracy in action; and that my Modernization approach to the Power Democracy has some interesting merits. Since this game, my Modernization approach -- and consequently, my aesthetic opportunities -- have improved; and in fact, I have at least one game that if I ever bother to finish, will be an even finer example of these values.
 
Something about having my "Alexander" game placed in the same category with Shadowdale's "flawed" game required a response. When I commenced my "Alexander" game, I wanted to put my "strategy" of Modernization to the test within the context of a "minimalist" (i.e., non-ICS) approach. Insofar as the Food Caravan Trick was used in this game, its application needs to be understood within the context of the aesthetics to which I try to adhere when playing the game of Civ2.

Unfortunately, I do not understand either why you are unhappy with what I wrote or what you mean by ""Shadowdale's "flawed" game"".

I hope I'm correct in assuming that the reason for your response lies in the following paragraph from my posting:

Consider the top three Deity entries. The top two, Shadowdale and Andu Indorin, both used the perfectly acceptable FCT to maximize city size. Starlifter who sits third did not use FCT, I believe as a matter of personal preference. As far as I can tell, no one else on the list used FCT, for whatever reason(s). FCT is considered a cheat in GOTM. Considering that the maximum possible score is 39852 when FCT is used (my calculation)and approximately 16000 without FCT (Starlifter's estimate), in my opinion Starlifters achievement of 15,500 out of a possible 16,000 is more impressive than Shadowdale's 26,271 out of 39,852. As FCT can make such a large difference is there really much point to grouping scores achieved using FCT with scores reached without it?

From "Consider" at the beginning of the paragraph to "(Starlifter's estimate)" every word is factual. I do not see where I in any sense actively "placed" your game in the same category as ""Shadowdale's "flawed" game"". I understand now that you and he may have used FCT for different reasons but that does not alter the fact that use of FCT is limited to your and Shadowdale's games. In the context of the argument I was trying to present, there is no difference between the two games.

The rest of the quoted paragraph, clearly stated to be my opinion and not fact, seems to have no bearing on your posting.

My original post on this thread was only intended to examine what I percieve to be flaws in the present HOF as well as remedies, some far out and some not so far out. I did it because CivII players were actively interested in the HOF a few years ago and I thought that, given the chance, new CivII fanatics might be equally interested. It was certainly not my intention to step on anybody's toes.
 
AGRICOLA: I did not take your post as any kind of insult. You raised an number of good points, especially concerning potential advantages from using Earth maps vs. randomly generated maps; and the need for 4 game saves, and the 4000 bc save. I would add 1500 bc to these saves, as at that point in the game, it is somewhat easier to determine if anything is "amiss." Had this been the case, then at least two games on the current HOF would have been easily determined to be the product of "unfair advantages" vis-a-vis submissions of other players.

Yet the FCT can be considered a measure of "strength of play" over the course of the game. What I think might be a middle ground between your position and my position is a "bonus" score system for early finishes, similar to that used in GOTM; this would provide a measure for "strength of play" that would render the use of the FCT to a more or less "academic" consideration.

Again, I did not take your post personally.

More of a footnote:

On the theoretical maximum score: My calculations put it at 39,698 [254 cities x (127 pop. + 20 happy citizens) = 37,338; plus 2360 for space ship and other bonuses). So our calculations are comparable. However, as a theoretical maximum, some qualifications should be made to this figure. First, to achieve this theoretical maximum, there can be no overlapping cities, since each happy citizen must be "working" a square in a city radius. Given the AI civ's settlement strategy of an "interlocking defense," achieving the theoretical maximum would require the razing of many -- if not most -- AI cities and refounding them. Second, assuming that WLKD growth under Democracy will boost city population to an average of 40 per city (and this is a generous figure that assumes that most cities do not have to rely on ocean squares for food), then it would require 174 food freights (87x2) per city to achieve the maximum population of 127. At maximum production, this would mean that every city must have achieved a population of the assumed 40 per city by 1842 ad. By extension, factoring in the WLKD growth, every city must have been established and have a population of 8 by 1778 ad. And under normal game conditions, I simply do not think that this can be achieved; thus the "theoretical maximum" is of 39,698 is probably just that: theoretical.
 
Also on the theoretical maximum score: I've been thinking about this for a while, and it would be possible to simply devote all resources to getting an early AC landing. I'm not sure what the record is, but let's say you get your ship launched in 1000 AD, then the turns slow down to 1 per year. Then, you could rush buy a palace in an undefended border city and allow it to be captured. Your spaceship would be cancelled and you would have over 1000 turns in which to grow cities in. Am I right?
 
Yea, well i think the problem with that would be that if you'd launch your ship in 1000 AD, you probably didn't destroy any Civ yet..
So all the other Civs will be able to build a spaceship aswell, and that'd surely take less than 1000 turns
 
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