The Civilization II HOF Thread!

AGRICOLA

Warlord
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The idea of a having a game with 1000+ turns is wild but probably would not work. As far as I know, the program counts turns, not years. As needed, turns are internally converted to years on a schedule specific to the level of the game. The scoring ends when you reach a preset number of turns, not years.

Actually, if you built a very simple space ship with no engine(s) or no fuel, and the program allowed a launch (I haven't tried this) then the SS would never arrive at AC and you would have 1-year turns until you destroyed the SS by the method suggested. Could this be a useful diversion to get the AI busy expending resources on a non-existent space race while you use the time to arm yourself for a murderous attack?
 

AGRICOLA

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AGRICOLA: I did not take your post as any kind of insult
Andu, thank you for your most welcome words, I am truly relieved. :) :) :)
I really thought that I had put my foot in it and unwittingly insulted you, but couldn’t figure out how.

If I may, I have a few comments on your last posting:
I would add 1500 bc to these saves, as at that point in the game, it is somewhat easier to determine if anything is "amiss." Had this been the case, then at least two games on the current HOF would have been easily determined to be the product of "unfair advantages" vis-a-vis submissions of other players.
Couldn’t agree more, my estimate is 4 or 5.

What I think might be a middle ground between your position and my position is a "bonus" score system for early finishes, similar to that used in GOTM; this would provide a measure for "strength of play" that would render the use of the FCT to a more or less "academic" consideration.
I’ve never tried GOTM so I have no idea how its rules could be modified to handle what I see as the main choices that a player may face in an HOF game: finish game earliest by conquest, finish a bit later by landing on AC, or grind it out to the bitter end using FCT to maximize population and getting max FT, AC and peace bonuses. Tough call, I think.

On the theoretical maximum score: My calculations put it at 39,698 [254 cities x (127 pop. + 20 happy citizens) = 37,338; plus 2360 for space ship and other bonuses). So our calculations are comparable.
I think my number may be the correct one because it is possible to own 255 cities and still have one or more other civilizations in existence. However, it does take quite a bit of luck to do it. Here’s how:
1. Fairly early in game, <1000 AD or so
2. Civ regen in effect (does anyone know when regen stops functioning?)
3. All 255 city slots occupied
4. Only unused areas are arctic, desert, forest, etc. with few if any “good” city locations left
5. Target civ reduced to 1 city
6. When city killed, replacement civ may be generated in form of settler and possibly a fighter of some kind
7. Because of the lack of good city sites, there is a chance that settler cannot immediately found a city
8. If so, your settler/engineer founds a city to fill all 255 slots.
9. If no luck, kill the new alien city and try again, hoping to end up with 255 cities and one wandering alien settler.
10. If killing this civ produces no regen, go on to next civ and repeat procedure.

Obviously this is more theoretical than practical but I have seen it happen.
 

Old n Slow

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OK, new question for the hall of fame attempters (I have an urge, but not enough discipline nor patience to work it through). On a large random map, are there enough sites available to generate 255 full sized cities? Even with large landmass, I seem to “fill” the map (the few times I’ve pushed the game to that limit), and run low on space before city 200 let alone city 250.

Granted, populating the poles allows a bunch of cities, but the map edge costs a few spaces -- I know, I know, not important with FCT -- but with FCT, One shouldn’t care about 253, 254, or 255 cities either.
 

AGRICOLA

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I believe the answer is a provisional yes, provided that the right modpack is used. I downloaded a mod to CIV2 MGE that lets you customize the startup map to any size up to 32,767 squares, with each dimension between 20 and 250. Can’t remember source but most likely either CFC or Apolyton downloads section.

With Large/Continents/Warm/Wet just about any map generated has very little desert and tundra and is more than large enough for 255 non-overlapping cities. Actually, a random map doesn’t have to be all that large to hold 255 cities. Shadowdale’s 80 by 125 HOF map has room for at least 265 cities.

There is a fairly quick way (if one can call an hour+ "quick") to check the city capacity of any map. Load the map into map editor, mark potential city squares by changing the terrain to glacier, save, start game using premade map, use cheat mode to create the same unit on each city square and let Defense Minister do the counting.

Actually, the total length of shoreline may more important than total land mass. Consider a 10 by 10, regular, diamond-shaped land mass. Its capacity is 9 cities. Keeping land mass area constant, if you change its dimensions to 5 by 20 or break it up into two 5 by 10 islands and there is room for 12 cities. Ultimately, breaking it up into four 5 by 5 islands creates room for 16 cities. A long shoreline maximizes use of ocean squares which usually take up more than 50% of a map.


OOOps! I think I misread the question :confused:

"Large" means 10,000 squares, not 10,000++, right? If that is the case, only once have I generated a map that would hold 255 cities in 100+ tries when I was playing around trying to quantify the consistent differences in terrain type distribution between random flat and round earth maps. With that one rare exception, what I got agrees with your observations.
 

Andu Indorin

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Originally posted by Old n Slow
OK, new question for the hall of fame attempters (I have an urge, but not enough discipline nor patience to work it through). On a large random map, are there enough sites available to generate 255 full sized cities? Even with large landmass, I seem to “fill” the map (the few times I’ve pushed the game to that limit), and run low on space before city 200 let alone city 250.

Yes, it is possible on a standard large map (120x80), though fairly rare. But it does require establishing cities with some overlapping squares. ...
 

Ace

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A map that is 125 X 80 = 10,000 hexes and will provide room for more that 255 cities. Unless you happen to get a very bad split between water and land, that is. If that happens, you might as well give it up and consider the time invested wasted and start over.

You will have a little overlap, but that is almost unavoidable. It is also a matter of preferance. If you want to avoid open areas, you have to have some overlap. On the other hand, if your willing to accept open areas, you can space your cities out more.
 

Duke of Marlbrough

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Since I'm suggesting people talk about their possible HOF games, I might as well lead by exmple.

I haven't looked at my HOF game in quite awhile, but here it is at AD 1784.

I have all 255 cities built and about 1000 freight active with about 150 a turn being built.

I'll start delivering the Food freight at AD 1911. By then I should have my Spaceship fully built and all the future techs done.

Taxes are currently 70% tax, 10% science, 20% lux with about 500 Engineers terraforming the planet.
 

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Andu Indorin

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Well, at full production, you should reach the maximum of 2046 freight units in a matter of a few turns. Any particular reason for commencing deliveries in 1911?

(btw, should I ever get past my current case of writer's block, my plan is to finish my current big game before 1900 ... that is, IF I ever finish my current big game. ...)
 

Duke of Marlbrough

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That's the latest I can start and still get a size 20 city up to the max size.

Since this is the farthest I've gone with a HOF game, I'm just trying to plan things out on it.

If I start the food freight too soon, then I'll be wasting them because then I'll have to use freight just to keep already grown cities at the max size. I didn't even think about the number of units capping out....
 

Marlos

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Look, this FCT thing is just a bunch of baloney. This tactic should not be allowed in any game that is being submitted for comparison against others. I would (strongly) suggest that any maximum games submitted to the HOF be played with GOTM rules!
 

Marlos

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Upon further reflection, it seems that my "baloney" comment was from an uninformed perspective. I have played many HOF-style games just because I enjoy seeing how many cities I can build, how many FTs I can discover, and let's face it -- there's something fun about thawing the polar ice caps and building cities there!

The FCT was a trick that I have heard of from CFC, but I have never used it. The only time I build food caravans is to rush-build a wonder, or to even out the food production between two cities producing odd-numbered amounts of food (I hate all of those "sire, there is a famine in Basra" messages that incessantly appear when cities are "maximized" at size 39 or 40).

At first pass, the FCT seems so artificial. I'm thinking, "what's the point?" I'm trying to imagine the number of food caravans that must be built to cause 250+ cities to grow to a size of 100 or more! Not to mention delivering them! But I suppose that this isn't a way of rule-breaking or doing anything not intended by the game designers. In fact, there is a real-world parallel for all these blasted semi-trucks on the highways!

I guess that when I read about Duke's planned delivery of all of his food freight starting around 1911, my maximum gaming skills and all of the work I have done playing HOF-style games seemed small.

To summarize, I would say that I still have more to learn about this game that I love so much. :o
 

Barthax

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I'm just wondering if there are limits to the number of entries per person for the Civ II HOF... After a quick glance, there appears to be no duplicates of names across the tables - I'm not surprised it's limited to one submission per level, but is it one submission per all tables?
 

Barthax

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Just curious - could I have some form of estimate to the amount of time it takes to verify a submission for Civ II... Obviously it's not going to be quick. :)
 

Specialist290

Terracotta Statue Man
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It took me a year and a half, off and on, to play this game. Once it was finished, I saved it to floppy and prepared to submit it here.

However, I then lost the floppy, and my comp crashed. I thought all hope was lost...

But now, after many, many months of searching for my floppy, I have finally found it!

It is the game to which I referred to in this thread and many others scattered throughout this forum. Most of you only know it as my "France game."

I now present it for your viewing pleasure.

Warlord difficulty, 4 civs, Raging Hordes barb activity.

And incidentally, does it still count if I submit it via thread instead of email?

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads9/spechof.SAV
 

Ali Ardavan

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I doubt if it is dead due to lack of participants' interest. Do the powers in charge still accept new submissions?

I just checked the HOF for the first time in years (ever?). My GOTM55 submission would be #6 in the emperor lot.
 

Barthax

Chieftain
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Duke of Marlbrough said:
We are actually in the process of updating the HOF right now.

Excellent news! :)

Duke of Marlbrough said:
It will be done somewhat infrequently since we do not receive very many submissions for it.

I wouldn't expect large quantities of submissions given Civ III & IV are out & very much alive but it's great news that Civ II hasn't been forgotten too. :D
 

Andy Ore

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 18, 2005
Messages
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My score is around 3500, but when I retire, it says "-291%" or something like that, what's happening? It didn't happen when I made lower scores
I use a very old version, never updated cause never found patches in spanish, and I'm used to it.
 
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