The Classic Maya

[bfcowdery]

Wow I loved it! especially the non playable Mexicans very authentic.

My only suggestion, would be to complete the research already done and enter it into the text of civilopedia. And enter the text on the units and improvements etc.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Wow I loved it! especially the non playable Mexicans very authentic.

My only suggestion, would be to complete the research already done and enter it into the text of civilopedia. And enter the text on the units and improvements etc.

Glad you like it, and welcome to CFC!

I'm working at filling out the 'pedia. If I get the entries on the various factions ready today, I'll post the updated txt tonight.

 

[Unspeakable Horror]

I didn´t know you make Civ3 scenarios

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

I've considered that, but decided to go for recognizability.

I hope you will enjoy the scen.

I played a "test game" as Piedras Negras. I ended up getting into a war with Palenque, which settled to a draw, and then Tikal, which kicked my butt. At that point, I quit the game. I don't believe this was due to play imbalance, just my own lack of skill.

The scenario runs a little slow, because in the beginning, you can't build anything except warriors. Research runs slow too, because none of the factions are scientific. This makes sense for the nature of the scenario, though, so I can't fault you on that.

I haven't gotten that far into the tech tree, but from what I've read, the Maya did use the bow and arrow, later on. I don't know if you feel like incorporating archers into the mix.

That's all I have to say for now.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I played a "test game" as Piedras Negras. I ended up getting into a war with Palenque, which settled to a draw, and then Tikal, which kicked my butt. At that point, I quit the game. I don't believe this was due to play imbalance, just my own lack of skill.

What level did you play on? I've not tried Piedras Negras since fairly early in development, but I would have thought them of only middling difficulty.

The scenario runs a little slow, because in the beginning, you can't build anything except warriors. Research runs slow too, because none of the factions are scientific. This makes sense for the nature of the scenario, though, so I can't fault you on that.

I know the beginning is a bit slow. The only obvious way of speeding it up, tho, would seem to be to give some starting techs, which would make the tech-tree even faster to work thru. Maybe I should do that, if people think the beginning too boring, but the tech tree is already very short.

Or I could make Workers available right from the start. This would also speed up research a bit thanks to more commerce.

Research speeds up as the scenario progresses.

I haven't gotten that far into the tech tree, but from what I've read, the Maya did use the bow and arrow, later on. I don't know if you feel like incorporating archers into the mix.

I don't, really, because there are no Mesoamerican archers gfx I particularly like, and Classic warriors are AFAIK never portrayed with bows, which appear to have been chiefly a weapon of the hunt. Also, with no resources for melee troops, there is little pragmatic need for a separate archer line as seen in many ancient scenarios and mods.


Many thanks for your thoughts and comments.

 

[bfcowdery]

I like the slow start, it makes for more strategy. Like learning not to use your armies straight away. In addition it makes choosing the right techs vital.

 

[The Last Conformist]

An unexpected attack of real life has delayed updates of the 'pedia. Thought you might want to know.

 

[egroen]

Looks good, I am looking forward to trying it out!

 

[The Last Conformist]

Looks good, I am looking forward to trying it out!

I'm looking forward to your comments.

As long as you don't suggest including Far Eastern gfx.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

What level did you play on? I've not tried Piedras Negras since fairly early in development, but I would have thought them of only middling difficulty.

I don't, really, because there are no Mesoamerican archers gfx I particularly like, and Classic warriors are AFAIK never portrayed with bows, which appear to have been chiefly a weapon of the hunt. Also, with no resources for melee troops, there is little pragmatic need for a separate archer line as seen in many ancient scenarios and mods.

I played at Monarch level. Anyway, the slowness of the scenario need not be radically altered. I think part of the reason I got bored is because the civilopedia was empty, so it was hard to get immersed in the genre of Classic Maya lore. see, for example http://www.famsi.org

I don't know if you've given thought to throwing in more Maya wonders like:

Temple of the Inscriptions (Palenque)
Temple of the Murals (Quiriga)
Observatory (actually widespread during the classic Maya period, so not a wonder)
Popul Vuh (the Maya mythic saga)

Anyway, hope real life gets easier for you.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I played at Monarch level. Anyway, the slowness of the scenario need not be radically altered. I think part of the reason I got bored is because the civilopedia was empty, so it was hard to get immersed in the genre of Classic Maya lore. see, for example http://www.famsi.org

Fleshing out the 'pedia is work in progress - I hope to have it essentially complete for the 1.0 release.

I don't know if you've given thought to throwing in more Maya wonders like:

Temple of the Inscriptions (Palenque)
Temple of the Murals (Quiriga)
Observatory (actually widespread during the classic Maya period, so not a wonder)
Popul Vuh (the Maya mythic saga)

The Temples of Inscriptions and Murals might be included - it's just hard to think of semi-appropriate effects for them. The Temple of War ought be renamed, too.

Obsevatory could be made an improvement or SM, probably at the Calendar tech, but, again, it should preferably do something (beyond adding yet more culture).

The Popul Vuh isn't entirely appropriate; it's Postclassical and from the Highlands. Still, many of its myths were known to the Classics too, so it's not entirely off the radar.

Anyway, hope real life gets easier for you.

That makes two of us.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

The Temples of Inscriptions and Murals might be included - it's just hard to think of semi-appropriate effects for them. The Temple of War ought be renamed, too.

Obsevatory could be made an improvement or SM, probably at the Calendar tech, but, again, it should preferably do something (beyond adding yet more culture).

The Popul Vuh isn't entirely appropriate; it's Postclassical and from the Highlands. Still, many of its myths were known to the Classics too, so it's not entirely off the radar.

The Temple of the Inscriptions was supposed to be tomb of Pacal the Great and his gateway into the afterlife. It could function as a happiness-making
wonder like the Oracle, doubling the effects of temples. The Temple of the Murals could be like a Sistine Chapel -- a straight-forward happiness increase in all cities.

The Observatory should probably be a small wonder. Its function was to keep track of what day of the year it was, and this allowed for the right timing of agriculture. It could increase growth of the city by 2 instead of 1, or maybe put granaries in all cities. It could be discovered with the calendar, or with an extra tech, astronomy. (is it there already?)

True, the Popul Vuh is post-classical, but that's only because the older versions were lost. It's probably the closest depiction of the original Maya mythic saga.

 

[egroen]

As long as you don't suggest including Far Eastern gfx.

But have you considered using the Kandori?

 

[The Last Conformist]

@Nanocy: There's alot of happiness-causing stuff already; we don't want combating unhappiness too easy, do we? There's, BTW, already a Royal Burial small wonder.

An issue I forgot to mention in the OP that nobody's commented at - the only way to get cities bigger than size twelve is building one of a number of Great and Small Wonders in them; I thought this was a rather neat idea - do people agree?

I was also thinking of removing the Defense unit from Tuxtla; this would make fighting the Mexicans a bit more rewarding endeavor for in particular Toniná (which tends to get bet up by the Mexicans, in my tests at least), and would allow a Maya player to control the entire upper Grijalva valley.

If I do this, I'd have to move the Green Obsidian resource there to somewhere at the western map age; the stuff really comes from central Mexico, and a Maya faction shouldn't be able to control it just by seizing Tuxtla.

 

[Neonanocyborgasm]

@Nanocy: There's alot of happiness-causing stuff already; we don't want combating unhappiness too easy, do we? There's, BTW, already a Royal Burial small wonder.

An issue I forgot to mention in the OP that nobody's commented at - the only way to get cities bigger than size twelve is building one of a number of Great and Small Wonders in them; I thought this was a rather neat idea - do people agree?

I was also thinking of removing the Defense unit from Tuxtla; this would make fighting the Mexicans a bit more rewarding endeavor for in particular Toniná (which tends to get bet up by the Mexicans, in my tests at least), and would allow a Maya player to control the entire upper Grijalva valley.

If I do this, I'd have to move the Green Obsidian resource there to somewhere at the western map age; the stuff really comes from central Mexico, and a Maya faction shouldn't be able to control it just by seizing Tuxtla.

I guess I'd be ok with all these.

 

[Kleptocrat]

I liked the scenario very much. Good job!

I was going to make a Classic Maya scenario this past spring but it never materialized past a map, a tech tree, and some other stuff. So to see this scenario and how you did things is very interesting. I have combined your tech tree with mine and included some of the suggestions (I'll try to attach it... ) anyways...

The beginning is kinda of slow, which may be improved by having a scout and or worker available.

What happened to Dos Pilas? Also northern lowlands are kinda scant... maybe add Coba or Yaxuna? I dunno maybe have Coba as one of the starting cities for Calakmul?

In my scenario I was going to use emblem glyphs to represent the leader heads... and Mexico can be conveniently represented with either the spearthrower owl glyph or with the glyph for Teotihuacan, "Puh," place of reeds(?)

The dates in my game were messed up so it was a perpetual november, which kinda screwed up the autosave.

Again, great job. I can't wait to see it completely finished.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Thanks for your comments, Kleptocrat, and welcome to CFC!

The reason the Northern Lowlands are empty is that they are so poorly known during the Classic. As for Dos Pilas, I wanted to keep the number of civs down (keeps loading and interturn times down), and that their history is quite short.

I've been toying with the idea of using emblem glyphs for diplomacy (good idea bout the Spearthrower Owl glyph for Mexico), but it exceeds my artistic skills to do well, so I'd have to request it.

I'll be taking a look at your tech tree.

 

[The Last Conformist]

Here's an updated biq with the Defense removed from Tuxtla, some map fixes, and all king units removed (so that they don't clutter the 'Pedia).

 

[Kleptocrat]

I look forward to seeing the updated biq...

I guess I could volunteer to do the emblem glyphs, or at least get them started. I'm not sure how you'd want to present them though since each kingdom had multiple signs; for instance Baakal (Palenque) alternated between a bone main sign (Baak) and also a bird main sign (Mat). Also the EG is composed of three parts: a main sign, the prefix (k'uhul) and the superfix (ajaw). I know you can represent kingdoms with just the main sign... so I guess its a matter of preference in this case?

 

[The Last Conformist]

That would be very nice if you did!

I'd stick to the main sign, since the k'uhul and ajaw bits would be the same for everyone. I'd go with the Baak since for Palenque. For the rest, chose whichever variant you prefer. The Spearthrower Owl sign would be good for Mexico.