The Classical Mesoamerica Mod

[Steb]

Welcome to the Classical Mesoamerica mod!

Available on github at this link.

Mesoamerica is a fascinating part of world history, but one that is woefully neglected in DoC, in part (I think) because Mexico and central America are very small on the map, and in part because most Mesoamerican civilizations are limited in geographical scope and in the extent of our knowledge about them. We only have the Maya and, much later, the Aztecs. This leaves out a lot, including the Olmecs, Zapotecs, Teotihuacanos, Toltecs, and others.

I decided to make things a bit better by adjusting the Maya's spawn date and adding a new civilization: Teotihuacan. Already in DoC in the form of a Barbarian city, Teotihuacan was the most important Central Mexican city in the Classical Period. It existed from 200 or 100 BC to 700 or 800 AD, and reached its peak around 450 AD. We don't know a lot about Teotihuacan, because it did not leave written records, but we do have enough information from archaeology to know that it was culturally influential all over Mesoamerica. In addition, it built giant pyramids that can still be visited near Mexico City.

After its fall, the main power in the Valley of Mexico before the rise of the Aztecs was the Toltecs, who are even more poorly known than Teotihuacan (except from mostly mythological Aztec records that describe them as controlling a far-reaching empire). I decided that Teotihuacan would also represent the Toltecs if they survive past 800 AD. There is no historical justification for this — Teotihuacan and the Toltecs are distinct civilizations — but it makes sense from a gameplay perspective, and there would really be no point in adding the Toltecs otherwise. Moreover, their capitals would be on the same spot and probably have the same name ("Tollan", a generic name for important cities in central Mexico; we don't know either city's original name, and "Teotihuacan" is a name given later by the Aztecs).

New Civ: Teotihuacan
Spawns in 200 BC on the same spot as Mexico-Tenochtitlan
Leader: Atlatl Cauac (a.k.a. "Spearthrower Owl")
UP: The Power of Obsidian: Melee units do not require strategic resources
UU: Artisan: replaces Worker; produces culture when in a city
UB: Temazcal: replaces bath; grants extra health
UHV:
- Mesoamerican Metropolis: Have more than 500 culture in 550 AD
- Birthplace of the Gods: Experience a golden age by 550 AD
- The Toltec Empire: Control all tiles in Mesoamerica in 1000 AD
Pagan URV2: Produce 200 culture with artisans
Color: Dark red and light green (inspiration)
Flag: Teotihuacan Ocelot

Other changes
- New wonder: Pyramid of the Sun (requires Masonry): Golden Ages require one fewer great person
- The Maya now spawn in 750 BC
- Adjusted Barbarian spawns
- Overhaul of the Aztecs' city names map, and some changes to their dynamic names

Possible future changes
- Change the Maya UP (to something related to the density of their cities)
- Change the Temple of Kukulkan effect (perhaps extra commerce per Pagan Temple)
- Maaaaaybe add a Zapotec civilization (to replace independent Danibaan) or an Olmec civilization (pre-Maya). Probably not, though, because they would be very challenging to do properly (due to geography and knowledge constraints).
- Maybe change the Teotihuacan UB to something more interesting or useful if someone has a good idea

Also, there will surely need to be balancing adjustments. The Aztecs are now expected to start off stronger in the 3000 BC scenario since they flip Teotihuacan cities (except Teotihuacan itself which gets destroyed upon the Aztec spawn). The Maya also have more time to develop and I think will become generally more advanced and powerful (and their UHV easier, possibly even doable!).

Feel free to let me know what you think!

Spoiler Screenshot :

 

[Leoreth]

Had something similar in the list of things I really wanted to do.

 

[Steb]

Feel free to steal as much as you want!

 

[Edmund Ironside]

Good choice. I had the Olmec down as a possible new civilization I wanted to make (assuming I ever figured out how to make a new civilization).

 

[1SDANi]

Good choice. I had the Olmec down as a possible new civilization I wanted to make (assuming I ever figured out how to make a new civilization).

Here's a guide
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/guide-adding-a-civilization-to-doc-updated.561840/

 

[Leoreth]

Feel free to steal as much as you want!

Definitely will once I get around to it.

Teotihuacan is quite the unlikely civilisation, I wonder if there's any of my less expected planned civs left when I get to make them.

 

[TJDowling]

Love it! And the UP, I wish the Aztecs had that UP but that would make them too powerful I think. If only Mexico were bigger!

 

[Steb]

Their UP is quite powerful, yeah. I wonder what will happen if someone tries to play them past the Aztecs and European conquerors and beyond?

Also, I think the future larger map will open several new possibilities for Mesoamerica! I think we're probably close to the limit of what the current map can give us.

 

[1SDANi]

Just as a heads up, the current Core incentivizes the settlement of Tajin as the capital and Tonallan and Cihuatlan soon after. If you wish to keep Tollan as the incentivised capital, I'd suggest shifting the core 1E or alternatively shrinking it to be 2x2. After double checking, Israel has this same issue with Hefa and Tel-Aviv. The only reason it's not nearly as bad for them is that Jerusalem already exists when they spawn.

 

[Steb]

That's a good point. The Aztecs have the same issue I think, but their UHV is not winnable if you don't settle Tenochtitlan. I didn't want to restrict it so much, but I did notice that settling Tajin is a superior choice to Tollan.

I think I'll shave off the top row of the core area, so it's just Tollan, 1E, 1W, 1S and 1SW. Then the only way to get two cities in the core is to settle on the corn. Or I guess I could exclude the corn as well.

 

[1SDANi]

That's a good point. The Aztecs have the same issue I think, but their UHV is not winnable if you don't settle Tenochtitlan. I didn't want to restrict it so much, but I did notice that settling Tajin is a superior choice to Tollan.

I think I'll shave off the top row of the core area, so it's just Tollan, 1E, 1W, 1S and 1SW. Then the only way to get two cities in the core is to settle on the corn. Or I guess I could exclude the corn as well.

What if instead of shrinking the Core it was expanded? I've been working on my own idea for a Teotihuacan core based on an image of the Toltec Empire I found on wikipedia. What do you think of this?



((17, 35), (23, 39)), # Teotihuacan
iTeotihuacan : [(17, 36), (17, 37), (19, 39), (19, 38), (19, 37), (21, 35), (22, 35), (21, 36), (22, 36), (23, 36)],

 

[Steb]

To be honest, anything that is not the Valley of Mexico (the starting spot only) would more appropriately be historical as opposed to core. Look at the map you cite, the "Toltec homeland" isn't actually very large. That would be true of any civilization based there, including Teotihuacan, the Toltecs, and the Aztecs. In fact I think the Aztecs' core is currently too vast. But a 1-tile core wouldn't be fun either.

Also, Teotihuacan is supposed to collapse at some point before the rise of the Aztecs. I don't know if that currently happens, but I'm considering shrinking their historical area as well if it doesn't.

 

[merijn_v1]

In my Mamluks modcomp, the Egyptians are forced to collapse if the human player is the Mamluks. But maybe in this case a forced collapse even when the human player is not the Aztecs is desired. (With the exception if the human player is Teotihuacan)

 

[1SDANi]

To be honest, anything that is not the Valley of Mexico (the starting spot only) would more appropriately be historical as opposed to core. Look at the map you cite, the "Toltec homeland" isn't actually very large. That would be true of any civilization based there, including Teotihuacan, the Toltecs, and the Aztecs. In fact I think the Aztecs' core is currently too vast. But a 1-tile core wouldn't be fun either.

Also, Teotihuacan is supposed to collapse at some point before the rise of the Aztecs. I don't know if that currently happens, but I'm considering shrinking their historical area as well if it doesn't.

Exactly, a 1-tile core isn't fun, and neither is a 2 tile one. Israel makes sense as it's a diplomatically constructed state instead of one formed naturally. I based it on areas where the Toltecs controlled or had heavy influence over specifically because I felt the Toltec homeland is too small.

 

[Leoreth]

Alternatively, the Aztecs should be conditional on Teotihuacan being collapsed. Historically, the Aztec resulted either from Mexica migrating south to Lake Texcoco or were already part of Teotihuacani society, and drew their legitimacy from Teotihuacan. If Teotihuacan survives neither of these things are likely to happen.

 

[Steb]

Sure, my point being that we should expect Teotihuacan to collapse around 550-700 AD. Maybe I should increase Barbarian pressure around then. In any case, there is actually no problem with the transition to the Aztecs right now, the Aztecs just flip most Teotihuacan stuff, which I think is an acceptable outcome.

A conditional spawn might be a good idea, but doesn't sound like a very important one. The whole history of central Mesoamerica is basically city states rising in prominence one after the other, and the rise of the Aztecs in the mod models that fairly well.

Totally open to discussing other ideas to model Mesoamerica better, btw.

 

[Leoreth]

You're right, you probably can't, at least not with the space given.

 

[Steb]

Exactly, a 1-tile core isn't fun, and neither is a 2 tile one. Israel makes sense as it's a diplomatically constructed state instead of one formed naturally. I based it on areas where the Toltecs controlled or had heavy influence over specifically because I felt the Toltec homeland is too small.

A 1-tile core is not fun because it restricts player choice way too much, but I don't think it's a particularly good idea to artificially increase the core area of a civ beyond what would be accurate. With Teotihuacan, it's easy enough to remain stable with a single core city.

Did you implement your proposed larger core in CMC?

 

[1SDANi]

A 1-tile core is not fun because it restricts player choice way too much, but I don't think it's a particularly good idea to artificially increase the core area of a civ beyond what would be accurate. With Teotihuacan, it's easy enough to remain stable with a single core city.

Did you implement your proposed larger core in CMC?

I wouldn't say I'm artificially increasing the core area as much as I am loosening the definition in order to allow better gameplay.

Yes I did.

 

[Lokki242]

I don't the UP is working, it still says I need copper or iron.