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The Cold War Deluxe; 1950-1991

Winner,

i think the idea is fantastic and i'd help out w/ anything that may crop up. i had given this idea some thought a while back but decided not to take it on. however, it'd be great if you took the lead on it. plus, feel free to PM me or to post in the thread.

my 1st thoughts:

- yes, giving the US some land on the map would be good. this had me thinking that maybe one of the WW2 maps could be used (ie with the eastern US seaboard on the map). not sure how far along you are on the city placing but it's just a thought.

- since the USSR would have a lot less land (and cities), i'd consider either lowering the costs a smidge for their units OR to at least come close to their actual number of cities on the europe map as is on the standard map.
 
El Justo said:
Winner,

- since the USSR would have a lot less land (and cities), i'd consider either lowering the costs a smidge for their units OR to at least come close to their actual number of cities on the europe map as is on the standard map.

Or give them a couple of unit-producing wonders? just make sure they only produce under commmunism!:crazyeye:
 
El Justo said:
Winner,

i think the idea is fantastic and i'd help out w/ anything that may crop up. i had given this idea some thought a while back but decided not to take it on. however, it'd be great if you took the lead on it. plus, feel free to PM me or to post in the thread.

Thank you for your blessing. I'll keep you posted.

my 1st thoughts:

- yes, giving the US some land on the map would be good. this had me thinking that maybe one of the WW2 maps could be used (ie with the eastern US seaboard on the map). not sure how far along you are on the city placing but it's just a thought.

My main concern is the speed of the game. I want it as fast as possible.

- since the USSR would have a lot less land (and cities), i'd consider either lowering the costs a smidge for their units OR to at least come close to their actual number of cities on the europe map as is on the standard map.

If you look at this map, the Warsaw Pact will have a huge chunk of land.


But first, I am a bit confused about the resources. Can you tell me something about it, something what is really important and what should I know about it before I start?
 
@ El Justo I would like your permission (and possibly help if you are willing) to make a Modern World Scenario using your units and terrain and such.

This is what I have so far

Modern_World_Scenario.JPG


I will be creating a Creation thread in the Creation and Customization Fourm. Sorry to advertize.
 
Winner said:
Thank you for your blessing. I'll keep you posted.



My main concern is the speed of the game. I want it as fast as possible.



If you look at this map, the Warsaw Pact will have a huge chunk of land.


But first, I am a bit confused about the resources. Can you tell me something about it, something what is really important and what should I know about it before I start?
my pleasure mate. i'm happy to help out some.

as far as game speed is concerned, you'll want to take a few things into account. obviously, the size of the map is at the top of the list. the total number of cities on the map also plays a part and finally, the total number of starting units.

if could make a recommendation:
include some of the smaller countries not included in TCW like Austria, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, etc. it would add a lot of flavor i think.

it seems that you can indeed fit in a bunch of soviet cities. i'd be sure to make it so that the ruskies have a clear advantage in the # of cities.

re resources:
each civi essentially has their own 'country resource'. for instance, there's a "UK" resource which is required for some of the british units and especially the flavor wonders like the wonders which autopro' the commando units, spy units, etc. there's a "Soviet Union" one for all of their special wonders and so on. also, iirc, there's a specific format i used for e germany. i would suggest that we maybe correspond by email or PM b/c i think i could go into better detail for you. maybe we could correspond for each civi or a few small ones so that i don't have to write a dissertation on it? :crazyeye:

either way, i'm very happy to help out and guide you through it. it ain't too hard but there are a few things that are essential.
 
silver 2039 said:
@ El Justo I would like your permission (and possibly help if you are willing) to make a Modern World Scenario using your units and terrain and such.

This is what I have so far

Modern_World_Scenario.JPG


I will be creating a Creation thread in the Creation and Customization Fourm. Sorry to advertize.
silver,

sure. i'd be willing to help some. i'm not sure if i can crunch away w/ you with all of the hard-core stuff but i could definitely guide you some and point you in the right directions as far as units, upgrade paths, stats, etc.
 
I originally posted some of this material over at One Big Community, in the form of a poll, but I thought it might be of interest to some of you guys who don't go over there

PROPOSITION:

BECAUSE NATIONAL IDENTITY LEADS TO WAR, TO SET AN EXAMPLE TO ALL OF HUMANITY, THE CANADIAN AND U.S. FEDERAL GOVERNMENTS SHOULD IMMEDIATELY BEGIN THE PROCESS OF UNIFYING THEIR TWO NATIONS INTO A SINGLE NATION.





Its funny stuff. No matter what principles of brotherly love any of us might espouse, eventually we'll encounter some threshold that we do not wish to have breached in our "share and share alike" mentality.

Example: I just read this book by Gwynne Dyer, who is a very famous and influental Canadian Defense Analyst, and foreign policy consultant. In it, he lays out an absolutely BRILLIANT overview of the cultural evolution of war. His final conclusion: with nuke escalation, war has effectively become obsolete, impractical, and indeed, a threat to the very continued existence of humanity. In short, time for pacifism, but not for strictly altruistic, lovey-dovie reasons. No need to go there at all, because from strictly pragmatic reasons, war has become as much a threat to the most powerful, autonomous, and militarily defensive nations as it is to the smallest, assimilated, and militarily "insurgent" "nations" or groups. In short, if we do not get rid of the concept of War, chances are it is eventually gonna kill us all, and that includes all of us who might ever BE, not just US right here and now. In short, war since 1945 has become (with the nuke arms race) increasingly, objectively, TOTALLY INSANE.

So, what does Dyer propose needs to happen? Decreasing reference to, reliance, on and regression to "national" or "ethnic" or other dividing identity categories, and increasing solidarity, union, and cooperation across these boundaries. Eventual result: pan-global human government. He acknowledges that while this is impractical and even unlikely even in the longest term, that it is the ONLY viable solution to eliminating the pervasive risk to the survival of humanity that national and ethnic divisions now pose.

Based on some of Dyer's attitudes expressed about the greater righteousness of Canadian foreign policy compared to U.S. in the post WWII world, his conclusions are rather ironic IMHO. While I cannot disagree with what he has to say, and fully support his conclusions, I anticipate that his response, as a representatively intelligent and reasonable Canadian citizen, to the following hypothetical proposition would be ironically in opposition to my own, as a representatively intelligent and reasonable American citizen:

Because national identity is a scourge on which war is fought in the modern era, and thus a threat to the survival of humanity, national boundaries should be eliminated whereever possible, and as soon as possible. Thus, Canada and the U.S. should immediately initiate the process of amalgamating their nations into one.

My response to this proposition is, sure thing; lets start today! I seriously expect that HIS response to this, as a citizen from the "little brother nation," which is so predominantly opposed to the will of the majority of Americans who placed Bush into office, would be "no way! We're Canadians, and we don't want to become mere clients to the American hegemony!"

Its easy to talk the talk, but walking the walk is not so easy.

the simple version of Dyer's argument.

He goes through the entire history of warfare from paleolithic to post-Cold War. Warfare probably existed before nation states, but nation states made it something new and terrible. Instead of 10% or so of all males, and perhaps 5% of all females dying in war over about 5 year period as in nomadic or semi-nomadic hunter-gatherers, warfare in the first settled people amounted to less frequent fighting, but much bigger fights, and very differnet tactics. For a while, the rate of mortality was probably actually LOWER than in paleolithic times, then on to the scene come the first great dictators/national leaders, e.g., Sargon, and with the new concept of the massive warring state/tribe, the first true largescale atrocities. Entire villages sacked, entire tribes eliminated.

Continue for about 5000 years or so to the present, with this same basic theme being played out repeatedly, sometimes in very large scale, sometimes in not so large scale. Sometimes with new weapons or tactics sometimes with old reliables. All through it, people, nations, leaders, soldiers held pretty much the same mindset. War was terrible, it was not always something to be leaped into with enthusiasm but it was regarded as an inescapable "natural" part of the relations between sovereignties.

Nuclear weapons, and the subsequent proliferation of nuclear weapons have caused a dramatic change in the actual destructive capacity of war, but there has been virtually no corollary change in the way people THINK about what war is, and what it can achieve. Throughout the Cold War, there was a debate between the "minimum deterrence" school of thought, and the "flexible response" school (several different names and types for this set of strategic thoughts.

Minimum deterrence is just basically: have enough nukes that can be covertly protected from preemptive strike, and enough to flatten the enemies major cities. He will not attack you, because he knows that if he does, he's toast. President Kennedy in 1962 said that we needed about 200 sub based nukes to achieve this, but the defense industry wanted nothing to do with such small arsenals!

The other school, "flexible response" is all about trying to plan for, and figure out how to make nukes part of "tactical warfare," e.g., by using artillery filed nukes, suitcase nukes, short range missiles and so on, on targets that are primarily military and might minimize both retaliatory response, and civilian deaths, and thus allow one side to engage the other in a kind fof tit-for-tat city hostaging practice. The problem is, no one actually knows how this would work, i.e., if one side would eventually back down or not, or if it would just escalate into afull scale war.

The point Dyer arrives at based on this is that, war is no longer even useful for what nations and other sovereignties once used it for, because it has become so unpredictable and potentially lethal to the benefactor as to the loser.

What does Dyer think this means as far as solutions to this conundrum we find our selves in? Greater national unification. What two nations have the least reason NOT to unify, the least tension between them, the most similar socieites and cultures, etc., and are thus the best "first wave" in the hopefully upcoming process of world unity building? Canada and the US, thus my poll.

We can probably all recognize that, Dyer's fundamental point is correct: nations do not wage war on themselves (though various totalitarian nations have done a pretty good job of 'waging war' on their populations over the years). Thus, if you want to PREVENT the risk of the extinction of humanity from nuklar war, the solution is for all current nuke holders to eventually be unified into one "nation" (whatever that may mean, i.e., is EU now akin to a "nation" because they have the economic union? or is it something slightly different? Maybe there really are not any nations any longer since we have the internet??).

Even while we can (probably) all agree that this is a laudable long-term goal, it does not prima facie have any immediate benefits to us as individuals. How would Cuba, Venezuela, Turkmenistan POSSIBLY benefit in the immediate term from the unification of Canada-US into the United States of Canada? Very likely the governing leadership in these places WOULD NOT benefit, given that Canada has generally been more friendly and conciliatory to them, and the U.S. has not. Thus, despite the long-term benefits of us becoming one big happy war-proof human family, our individual, national, ethnic, and ideological interests in the idiosyncratic SHORT-TERM interests of our allegiance/self prevent us from being willing to see the initial steps to that long-term outcome as being worthy. Probably also, some folks who dislike the U.S. or its current government, would regard such a baby step for humanity, not even as _not a benefit_ but as a positive threat.

Why not unify US and Cuba? US and Venezuela? US and Mexico? etc.?

Cuba would have nothing to do with it, and Russia probably wouldn't be keen, and probably Canada, China, etc., would also be recalcitrant.

Venezuela's current leader would definitely not go for it, and the Brazilians might view it as some kind of threat to their own self-interest or something. Probably Chile, Equador, etc. as well.

With respect to US-Mexico, the blame is probably more atritubale to US lobbying interests. Why not unify with Mexico? because powerful industrial and political lobbies in the US make more profit by keeping Mexico a client state, propping up the aristocrats who control the country, and filtering in lots of "guest workers" etc.

. . . Okay, I've had enough of this planet of the apes. Can I please check back into the non-corporeal ethereal state . . .

Kinda makes you feel like vomiting doesn't it? Ah well, we'll all be dead eventually, so who cares.
 
Dyer's point is simply this: Increasingly since 1945, our basic premise that nations have a "right" to be divided has become increasingly untenable, from a simple standpoint of probabilities. No matter how good is your balance, you will eventually slip, and when the nuclear balance slips, poof!, no more humanity. The razor's edge on which the survival of our species is balanced was easier to comprehend in say 1962 with the Cuban missile crisis, or even more so in the 1970s and 1980s when the Russkies and the Yanks were actively bristling at each other. Now that the Soviets have lost control of a few of their sateillite states, the same "WAR IS OVER! Lets go home!" mentality that made the Korean war possible has struck humanity once again. Because the American public were SO thoroughly sick of militarization, the US military experienced one of the most precipitous downsizings of any force every in all of human history immediately after WWII, and this meant that the US deterrent all over the world was quite minimal; this was exactly why the North Koreans, backed by the Chinese and Soviets thought they could get away with annexing South Korea. They knew that US ability to protect its client states in Asia using conventional strength was extremely low, and they gambled that the US would NOT play its trump card, the bomb.

People did not LIKE the "Cold War" at all. It made them very uncomfortable, so it is no surprise that the media, the politicians, the activists, EVERYONE, were more than happy to pretend that the threat of global thermonuclear war simply vanished when "the Soviet Union collapsed." Problem is, the risk is probably even greater NOW than it was then, because the USSR has fallen into even greater shambles. Most of the arsenals are still there, and most of the military leaders are still there. Even a lot of the Old Guard of political leaders are still there. The only thing that has changed is that, the USSR had to back down from its propaganda war, because it was finally obvious to everyone that it was a sham, and that it was in economic shambles.

Prior to the "end of the Cold War," because everyone on both sides was extremely attentive to the risks, everyone on both sides was well-paid, and much attention was being paid to their organization and command, at the PEAK of the Cold War, the actual risk of global thermonuclear armaggedon was probably lower then than it is now, despite all the posturing, and propaganda that came out of both sides, and consequently focused the world's attention on the threat.

Thus, the real risk ever since about 1950 or so, has never been that the core of military or political leadership in any of the nuclear club would actually START a nuclear war, although that risk was not trivial. The major risk was always that either a false alarm would spark one, or that somehow, someone truly malicious and mad would gain the ability to launch one or two, and thus get the domino effect of reprisals going. The greater coherence, and strength of the USSR in 1986, no matter how belligerent it may have TRIED to seem, was thus a much better assurance that nuclear war would not start than is the more divided, weakened, and socioeconomically handicapped Russia of today. It is more likely that a radical could gain control of a weapon, or that a false alarm could occur in an inefficient, weak, economically depressed, and divided nation.

The risk that an "unintentional" nuclear war, or one that started based on a false alarm or a misunderstanding could occur was, in short, probably lower in 1986 than it is today in 2005! Moreover, with Russia experiencing considerably more political change, the chance that some radical might get control of one or two weapons, even if only VERY temporarily, is probably greater in 2005 than in 1986. Launching only one ICBM or SSBN may seem like a fairly minimal threat to the survival of humanity, but the point is that, once the sword comes out of the sheath, the opponent is beholden, not only to draw his very quickly TOO, but to disable his opponent before it is too late. Even if a radical group gained control of a silo, launched an SSBN, and then Putin got on the phone to explain the terrible mistake, would Bush believe him? How would Bush know that Putin was not simply lying? Or, would Bush or someone of his ilk decide that if New York is going to be taken, then Moscow and St. Petersburg ALSO have to go! It is not difficult to imagine the ensuing tit-for-tat string of reprisals that could ensue if a Chechnyan group managed to gain control of a Russian silo, or a Chinese or Al Qaeda team managed to get control of an American silo. For someone crazy enough to be a terrorist, it is also not difficult to imagine that they might actually think that engaging in this tactic would actually further their self-interest? Are you sufficiently terrified yet!?! Can you say living on borrowed time?

The chance that rational, self-interested leaders would actually start a nuclear war has probably always been fairly low, at least since the Soviets got their first one, and the potential for a tit-for-tat string of reprisals existed. It is amazing really that the US did not get a big-head and start using its advantage between 1945 and 1949 or whenever it was that the Russians demonstrated that they had the bomb as well. I guess it was just lucky that Truman did not bear much resemblance to Hitler, Mao or Stalin, all of whom STARTED major wars or pogroms (WWII, Korea, the Great Leap Forward, etc.). It is chilling to consider isn't it, how lucky humanity was that the first people to get their hands on the bomb were the relatively more restrained ones?

Even France, which has one of the smallest arsenals in the nuclear club, has enough firepower to decimate two or three "potential rivals," killing potentially about 3 to 5 times as many as all who died in WWII in the span of about 5 minutes, and that probably wouldn't even dig into their strategic reserves! Moreover, some recent estimates about nuclear winter indicate that, even such a relatively small amount of nuclear fireworks very well might spark off the nuclear winter process, a downward spiral from which no human beings might EVER escape. This is to say nothing of India and Pakistan, where the death toll could be much, much worse, or the US and Russia which still to this day have an absurd overkill capacity to literally destroy all civilizations, and all of humanity not just one another. Dyer gives an example of plans that were actually WRITTEN down in both Soviet and US military documents, for "flexible response" protcols that involved the use of "limited" tactical nuclear weapons in the event of a surprise conventional attack that was overwhelming. Without even digging into the thousands of ICBM, and SSBN missiles, some of which carry 10 or 15 warheads, each of which could have scores of times more destructive capacity that Fat Man or Little Boy, a single "limited" tactical package, involving short range missiles, air-dropped bombs, and artillery shells, could effectively wipe out the majority of the enemies military forces in any particular region in Central Europe, kill several million civilians, and destroy vast tracts of landscape, towns and villages. In short, by the 1970s, even a "limited" nuclear war, would have been so incredibly destructive, that it would have been over almost as soon as it started, because most of the conventional forces in the vicinity of the theatre of war would very readily be eliminated by only a few of these "limited tactical packages" of which both sides possessed literally scores! These weapons were not just thrown in the trash heap in 1991 when the Berlin Wall fell! They are STILL in the arsenals of MANY armies all around the world! And this is to say NOTHING of the absurd level of destructive power in the strategic arsenals of the major nuclear powers, which has the potential to destroy literally every major city on the planet!!

So if we wanted to make Dyer's point a little less sweeping, we would conclude that there are multiple layers to the proposition.

The nations which currently have nuclear weapons should be actively thinking about, discussing, and initiating the long-term sociopolitical processes of unifying, so as to make the use of nuclear weapons moot. Sadly, this would seem to be even a step beyond the unification of Canada-US, which is a much smaller leap frankly, given the minimal differences between those two nations, their decades of friendliness, and general social similarities. Keep in mind, Franklin D. Roosevelt, an American President, was a socialist long before Trudeau, or the current Canadian government. Reacting to the US as if the current rightish-wing bloc were representative of the broad themes of American society would be about as logical as reacting to Canada as if the Bloc Quebecois were representative of that nations broad themes. In fact, the real differnencest between American and Canadian, between liberals and conservatives, and yes even between Israeli and Palesitinian I reckon, are truly minute compared to the far outliers in the political spectrum (Hamas, Krushchev, the Ba'athists, etc.). People just like to exaggerate how THEY, and THEIR party are so different from THOSE GUYS, because it is a key to "divide and conquer." Unfortunately, this does not really help anyone, when the differences are truly negligible, and there is more to be gained for EVERYONE with such minimald differences by being on the SAME team as opposed to being divided.

The point: because there can be no winning a nuclear war, and because the existence of ANY nuclear weapons in the hands of any one nation, will always result in every other nation wanting to have them, resulting in inevitable arms races, the presence of even a relatively small number of nuclear weapons on Earth represents a grave threat to the very survival of ALL humanity (read every single individual, every single nation, and every single social groups SELF-INTEREST). Unfortunately once Pandora's box is open, it cannot be closed. We cannot UNLEARN the knowledge of how to make thermonuclear bombs and the projectiles on which we can convey them to targets on the other side of the planet. Even if we COULD unlearn it, we would not want to, because there are so many beneficial extensions and applications of this military knowledge. The Genie is out of the bottle, so the only solution is to make friends with it, i.e., to make the social basis on which nuclear wars might ever occur, non-existent: unify. Thus, Dyer's point, all nations which either have nukes, or have the capacity to have nukes, need to unify, because it is no longer in their self-interest NOT to unify. Moreover, while today, there are only a handful in the nuclear club, in the long run, EVERYONE can, and probably WILL have a bomb or 600, so in the long run EVERYONE needs to unify, not just the major players of today.

While the most dire need is for the unification of say, Russia with US, or Pakistan with India, obviously these are even more unlikely, and unbelievable eventualities than is unification of Canada with US. So why would Canada-US national unity be a positive step in teh right direction? Because it would set a precedent, and if it were done for the right reasons, it would inspire humanity. Before you can run hurdles you have to be able to sprint, and before you can sprint, you have to be able to run, and before you run, you have to be able to jog, which requires first learning how to walk, which requires first learning how to crawl, which first requires being able to sit up on all fours, which first requires being able to roll over! We can think of Canada-US unification as being the very first step in this developmental process of humanity, i.e., the infantile personae of HUMANITY, finally recognizing that it had better start putting a little effort into at least making the first move, learning how to roll over. Looking at it this way, the eventual feat of humanity being immune to the threat of international thermonuclear war (terrorist use of them will not be reduced by unity between separate nations unfortunately) because we are all one big happy group, in which we recognize our shared self-interest, much like the developmental distance between a world class hurdler and a new born learning to roll over, can be seen to be a LONG way in the future, even if we DID start to acknowledge the need to eventual run world class. If that new born is not nurtured, and cared for, he will never even situp, let alone run the hurdles world class.
 
Anthropoid said:
Prior to the "end of the Cold War," because everyone on both sides was extremely attentive to the risks, everyone on both sides was well-paid, and much attention was being paid to their organization and command, at the PEAK of the Cold War, the actual risk of global thermonuclear armaggedon was probably lower then than it is now, despite all the posturing, and propaganda that came out of both sides, and consequently focused the world's attention on the threat

I would think that the risk was greater on October 27th 1962 than it ever was or has been since, although that incident during the Yom Kippur war of 1973 when Nixon was drunk and Kissinger changed the defcon level (or so the legend goes) and the Soviets were threatening to intervene in the Middle East is almost on par with that. Now with the new Hitler ruling in Teheran the danger level seems to be on the rise though.
 
"which is so predominantly opposed to the will of the majority of Americans who placed Bush into office, would be "no way! We're Canadians, and we don't want to become mere clients to the American hegemony!"

True American hegemony ended with the breakdown of the Bretton Woods system in the early 1970's, the concept of hegemony is today wrongfully used to describe the influence of U.S. on world politics in general.

Anyway is this some kind of essay? It is very hard for anyone to comment on your writings if they haven't read the book you are referring to, and your reasoning goes back and forth constantly so that your own opinion is hard to disguingish from sarcastic or ironic remarks, and having the latter in an essay would be academically unsound in any case.
 
MatteLeDog said:
Aha, so this is to be considered more of a book review then? Anyway I've spent to much of my life in academia, the real world awaits [pimp]
yeah...Anthropoid likes to "elaborate" :mischief:

i myself like to escape from academia into the alternate world of civ3. it's quite theraputic actually :D

also, i should probably let everyone know that once the Storm Over Europe mod has been released to the public, TCW will receive quite a graphical facelift in the form of all of the new unit gfx that will be introduced with the release of SOE. additionally, i intend to include all of vingrjoe's sweet new unit updates as well. in sum, there'll be close the 3 dozen (or more!) replacements for the existing place-holder gfx. i've seen many of these units, too, and they are indeed top-notch.
 
MatteLeDog said:
An excellent idea, will be looking forward to version 1.7 (or 2.0?) then :)
nah...it'll be like a "patch" w/out an update to the game.

however, i have given some thought to what vingrjoe had recommended some time ago and that was to alter the sub stats some. i'll have to crunch the numbers a little once the patch is ready.
 
AlCosta15 said:
Still its great that all the SOE units will be in here. (even if its after the Holidays)
well, consider that the ones that appear late-game for SOE will make their way into TCW as the first wave of units (pre-placed/1st gen/etc).
 
Yeah, basically just a book review sort of format. Mainly intended to get a bunch of smart guys thinking about, maybe even chatting about the topics.

Those incidents you mention Matte must be related to Cuban Crisis and the Yom Kippur war respectively? Also, Bretton Woods, what is that?
 
Anthropoid said:
The point: because there can be no winning a nuclear war, and because the existence of ANY nuclear weapons in the hands of any one nation, will always result in every other nation wanting to have them, resulting in inevitable arms races, the presence of even a relatively small number of nuclear weapons on Earth represents a grave threat to the very survival of ALL humanity (read every single individual, every single nation, and every single social groups SELF-INTEREST). Unfortunately once Pandora's box is open, it cannot be closed. We cannot UNLEARN the knowledge of how to make thermonuclear bombs and the projectiles on which we can convey them to targets on the other side of the planet. Even if we COULD unlearn it, we would not want to, because there are so many beneficial extensions and applications of this military knowledge. The Genie is out of the bottle, so the only solution is to make friends with it, i.e., to make the social basis on which nuclear wars might ever occur, non-existent: unify. Thus, Dyer's point, all nations which either have nukes, or have the capacity to have nukes, need to unify, because it is no longer in their self-interest NOT to unify. Moreover, while today, there are only a handful in the nuclear club, in the long run, EVERYONE can, and probably WILL have a bomb or 600, so in the long run EVERYONE needs to unify, not just the major players of today.
Whilst I can see the point, would it not couase more problems for the natiopns with nukes to unify? Ie, it forces other nations to do so, or left them to be abused by this "uber-nation"?

A paradox then: either take a process of gradual union, which could go wrong becaue it would be to easy to abuse power and make the situation worse, or go for a sudden union, making the situation worse because of civil revolt, politicians who hate eachother, and general revolution.

...or, keep with what we've got untill we find a better way of doing things that will work...?
 
Anthropoid said:
Yeah, basically just a book review sort of format. Mainly intended to get a bunch of smart guys thinking about, maybe even chatting about the topics.

Those incidents you mention Matte must be related to Cuban Crisis and the Yom Kippur war respectively? Also, Bretton Woods, what is that?

Yes, those were the incidents I was referring to, I might just read that book you are writing about, If I could get a copy somehow, but I've seen quite a few crazy "solutions" to problems of conflict proposed by International Relations scholars, arguing from power balance perspectives or game theory, that method is really a bit too abstract and relies on ideal (non realistic) conditions. Unifiying nations to solve conflict sounds like a far fetched idea, the European unification process is experiencing some severe difficulties, and that unification process has its roots in strong economic and security incentives (absolute gains from cooperation rather than competition). The linkage between states like Russia, India and China are considerably weaker than the linkage between the European states, and the chances of those countries unifying into one because of nuclear weapons control incentives seem extremely small. The nationstate remain unchallenged so far as the best political entity for achieving some sort of legitimate democracy. Of importance is the task for the recognized nuclear powers to make sure that states like Iran and North Korea or non-state actors do not acquire those weapons or technology.

Bretton Woods was the post war (ww2) economic order that the American hegemonic leadership rested on up until the 1970's (with institutions such as the IMF, world bank and the forerunner to WTO, GATT), It was the American post war hegemonic leadership that made the economic recovery of the Western World possible. By the 1970s however the U.S. had created strong economic competitors by making the buildup possible and was no longer unchallenged on the world stage in terms of trade and economic output. In a sense, the U.S. itself both created its own hegemony and signed its death warrant on the day it created it. This is making a very long story short and simplifying the matter however.
 
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