The Cold War II - Development Diary Thread

[JPetroski]

You've included a Norwegian and German infantry, but only one UK soldier unit?

We played a "slightly" bigger part in the era than those two pacifist nations.

I mean, look at it like this:

* The UK's contribution, either with special units with a flag or slots/art devoted to UK machinery, is represented by 28 units (6 ships, 1 IFV, 3 tanks, 1 helicopter, 16 aircraft, and 1 infantry which is also one of the better infantry of the Europeans given it is the paratrooper).
* France has 8 units (6 planes, 1 infantry, 1 missile)
* Germany has 3 units (2 tanks and 1 infantry)
* Italy has 2 units (1 ship, 1 helicopter)
* Norway has 1 unit (the winter and mountain warfare specialist infantry)

Do you still feel underrepresented? Also note that Europe's main "line infantry" per say, is the one with the EU shield on it. So the UK is actually hand selected as being one of only 4 countries in Europe to get its unique infantry too.

The USA and UK were major players in the cold war, no matter how you slice it. Norway and Germany had much less impact.

Yes, but who knows how this one plays out. There's no guarantee that the USA and Europe will stay as closely aligned, or that Germany wouldn't become more of a powerhouse. The decision to rearm the Bundeswehr and Luftwaffe took some time and was contentious, but Germany has an important military and, at the very least, always had the capacity to field a good one once unrestrained.

 

[JPetroski]

The UK's unit budget has been spent on submarines by the looks of things.

Right now I'm designing things with an eye that the nuclear-powered submarines aren't going to be saleable/giftable - for the most part, the stuff with country flags is going to stay "in house," but as mentioned in the post above, most of the military equipment from Europe has UK art or machinery at least (I do think I went and chose some Luftwaffe-skinned Tornados, but it's still a UK aircraft which is how I came to that count above).

 

[JPetroski]

Also not for nothing but the reason I didn't add a Ghana unit to the Non-Aligned was that I couldn't find one - they were pretty important though (and were one of the regions you could align diplomatically in the first game) so if anyone wants to draw one up I'm happy to swap out one of the units (probably Sudan?) for it.

 

[Civinator]

* The UK's contribution, either with special units with a flag or slots/art devoted to UK machinery, is represented by 28 units (6 ships, 1 IFV, 3 tanks, 1 helicopter, 16 aircraft, and 1 infantry which is also one of the better infantry of the Europeans given it is the paratrooper).
* France has 8 units (6 planes, 1 infantry, 1 missile)
* Germany has 3 units (2 tanks and 1 infantry)
* Italy has 2 units (1 ship, 1 helicopter)
* Norway has 1 unit (the winter and mountain warfare specialist infantry)

Do you still feel underrepresented?

The UK is overrepresented.

 

[CurtSibling]

I mean, look at it like this:

* The UK's contribution, either with special units with a flag or slots/art devoted to UK machinery, is represented by 28 units (6 ships, 1 IFV, 3 tanks, 1 helicopter, 16 aircraft, and 1 infantry which is also one of the better infantry of the Europeans given it is the paratrooper).
* France has 8 units (6 planes, 1 infantry, 1 missile)
* Germany has 3 units (2 tanks and 1 infantry)
* Italy has 2 units (1 ship, 1 helicopter)
* Norway has 1 unit (the winter and mountain warfare specialist infantry)

Do you still feel underrepresented?

It will suffice for now.

I'll respectfully bow out, in the knowledge your superb design skills
will make this project a balanced recreation of the cold war struggle.

I trust in your work, sir...I hope I did not offend.

 

[JPetroski]

Oh no offense taken

 

[Dadais]

* France has 8 units (6 planes, 1 infantry, 1 missile)

Little pov there, from a somehow not that old french :

I have to admit I don't see from afar which are these 6 places .

From my comprehension, the French strategy after ww2 was aiming for :
1- Independance with nuclear detterence
2- Polyvalence with many expertise domain yet somehow all with low operationnal capacity (funding limits)

Thus, from my amateur internal point of view, the French army have as symbols :

its infantry, until the nineties with many young conscripts, assuring a strong presence in some of its former colonies, and its high reputed legion.
its (nuclear) projection power, with its aviation (Mirage III & IV, then Mirage 2000, the Rafale and the french carrier), its nuclear submarine threat, and its own nuclear missiles.

That said, that's the point from an amateur that may not be valid, and which don't consider too your scenario balance, civs groups or needs.

Just keep going !

.

Edith : just saw you used the super mystere and the mirage F1, I guess on plane generations purpose ?

 

[JPetroski]

Just keep going !

Oh, this one is getting finished for sure. First thing's first is finishing up some work for Tecumseh, then finalizing and releasing HoF - but this Cold War has been a favorite of mine for a long time and I want to remake it all the better with lua and it's on the plate for full development after that.

It's tough to adequately represent every nation, especially for a civ like "Europe," but their journey through early economic pacts that led to the European Union is more or less their path. It'll be interesting to see if I can use lua to better differentiate the nations. I was planning on having the United States player get to choose between the different presidents and their historical rivals, and perhaps Europe would choose which nation, at any given moment, was more or less "in the lead," with pluses and minuses for each, I suppose. I'm all ears for thoughts on how to accomplish that!

 

[Dadais]

It's tough to adequately represent every nation, especially for a civ like "Europe," but their journey through early economic pacts that led to the European Union is more or less their path

Quite hard indeed to picture this whole as the single entity, considering the multitude of countries,
but also its three main policies aim and the intestine struggle between these while the need for economic cooperation to rebuild oneself stuck them together.

The english on a side, opposed to the unification of continental Europe seen as a threat facing its maritime Commonwealth, unification they know too well they wouldn't lead.

The french on another side, who dreamt to use the german-french association to rise back another power able to free himself from american tutorship, with its culmination with De Gaulle and its end with Sarkozy.

The german on the last side, using the union to grow economically back to power and the us to both protect them and set in stone their leading position since the reunification.

Its south countries, economically smaller and wasteful.
Its northen countries, economically stronger and more strict.

A nice headache to depict you chose to challenge !

 

[JPetroski]

A nice headache to depict you chose to challenge !

Yes, well in the first version of this scenario, another civ (the Non-Aligned) basically got to choose what type of government they'd have for the next 10 years (would they be peaceful and get Democracy or take a more warlike stance and get Communism). Something like this could work, and of course there's so much more that could change with lua as well, including different bonuses. So, I do think I could likely represent 3-4 (or however many, really) European countries and see which one would "take the helm" for a set number of years.

 

[amadeus]

I made a spreadsheet of the cities in the scenario and where they are at the start of the game. I used some historical names for countries where I thought they kind of fit in. Anyway, I was going to make a few recommendations of cities that were more relevant to the era and would add more "flavor" as it were than some of the places that are there now.

Particularly with regards to Africa, Tanzania is completely absent despite its (relative) contemporary significance whereas Mozambique has 4 cities, all under the control of the European powers at the start of the game. I suppose that's an inevitability as putting them into the same neutral camp as Portugal would result in them being overrun by South Africa, which would of course be way ahistorical. Those are just a few of my unsolicited opinions!

If these are welcome, I'll share them. If there's anything else I can do that's possible, I'd like to help in whatever way I can. I've enjoyed this scenario immensely, so really any contribution I could put forward I'd be happy to add.

 

[JPetroski]

It's absolutely welcome - I plan on using Prof. Garfield 's script to replace the map (and save eons of work) given that I do want to move to a 4-map setup (even if I only use 3 on this one, I wish to have "my own" World map set up for other scenarios that might need it). With that said, it's a matter of a line of code to move a city now with lua, so any inaccuracies or such are welcomed to be found and discussed.

To be completely candid with you, the cities originally came from finding where they were placed in Curt's imperialism and moving them to this map, so there's likely an unusual concentration in certain regions that may have made great sense for his scenario, but considerably less for mine, so any recommendations you have are extremely welcome.

 

[amadeus]

It's absolutely welcome - I plan on using Prof. Garfield 's script to replace the map (and save eons of work) given that I do want to move to a 4-map setup (even if I only use 3 on this one, I wish to have "my own" World map set up for other scenarios that might need it). With that said, it's a matter of a line of code to move a city now with lua, so any inaccuracies or such are welcomed to be found and discussed.

That's great, I'm glad to hear that some of the tedium has been eliminated from the process. I'm not exactly sure how to read the coordinates, is there a good way to format them if I add them to the spreadsheet?

To be completely candid with you, the cities originally came from finding where they were placed in Curt's imperialism and moving them to this map, so there's likely an unusual concentration in certain regions that may have made great sense for his scenario, but considerably less for mine, so any recommendations you have are extremely welcome.

That's what the next spreadsheet was going to be, but I wanted to check first to make sure I wasn't stepping on any toes.

I'll have a go at finding a period-appropriate atlas or almanac in order to find what contemporaries thought of as important cities, though I suspect I could guess most of them. Of course, I imagine you don't want to throw too much of the game balance off so my proposed city changes were going to be roughly zero-sum rather than adding new ones.

 

[JPetroski]

That's great, I'm glad to hear that some of the tedium has been eliminated from the process. I'm not exactly sure how to read the coordinates, is there a good way to format them if I add them to the spreadsheet?

There's no need for you to send in the coordinates for existing cities, but if you wish to propose new cities and where they should go, that would be helpful. I'd just right click on the tile of the current map (given it will be the same map) and them write down what the coordinates are (for example, 242,86,0).

That's what the next spreadsheet was going to be, but I wanted to check first to make sure I wasn't stepping on any toes.

I'll have a go at finding a period-appropriate atlas or almanac in order to find what contemporaries thought of as important cities, though I suspect I could guess most of them. Of course, I imagine you don't want to throw too much of the game balance off so my proposed city changes were going to be roughly zero-sum rather than adding new ones.

Oh you're not stepping on any toes at all. This is a very interesting scenario for me too and current events are making it all the more so. I'm happy to have any suggestions you have. About the only thing I have more or less "in stone" is the unit roster at this time, but even there it's not like I can't be flexible. I just don't have space for anything else so I'd have to swap one thing for another.

 

[JPetroski]

Oh just one more thing - it is totally possible to change city names on the fly via events (I do it with Leningrad and Stalingrad and some others) so if you're working with an almanac, keep that in mind. I've tried to start the scenario with accurate names in 1947 (though mistakes are possible) but it's a breeze to change them as we go.

 

[Locopath]

Hi, I'm playing the original Cold War scenario, great stuff! Really enjoying the atmosphere and mechanics. I'm playing as the Chinese, just had a few questions which I guess will still apply in Cold War II.

1. Are Nat. Chinese units meant to defect from airstrikes? It feels a little weird when I bomb infantry miles behind the frontline and they suddenly become my unit. I guess it may not be possible to distinguish air vs. land killing unit?
2. Is invading Taiwan supposed to trigger war with the USA? It generated a large American task force but they never attacked me, just sailed away. Was I supposed to attack them to start the war?
3. Is there meant to be some retaliation for the Soviets capturing Seoul? I got a popup about them looting equipment, but the Korean War never happened. Because it was the Soviets, not the (Pro East) North Koreans who captured?
4. Related to 3., I couldn't send Chinese forces to Korea to help out because the Pro East kept demanding I get away from Pyongyang. Is this expected/desired, to ensure the Chinese stay out of Korea? My Soviet allies are nicer, we can pass each others cities
5. Not sure if this is a scenario or modern PC running Civ II issue, but AI turns often leave me in a "Not Responding" static screen, as I can hear the AI moves playing out in the background. The turns happen as expected, I just can't see what the AI did! A popup (like my unit getting veteran status) makes the game "snap out" of this state, I can see AI stuff after the popup as normal.

Thanks!

 

[JPetroski]

Hi Locopath,

1. This could be changed going forward. I agree it doesn't make much sense for it to happen with air strikes.
2. Yes, but I guess the AI is being stupid. Or, perhaps the designer was stupid and didn't put in a war dec in the event.
3. Working as designed. Soviets are limited in how many cities they can take before they get penalties, though probably needed more thought for the AI.
4. It's a game mechanic - though there could be an argument that China should also have their diplomacy toggled every turn like USSR does with the Pro-East.
5. You need to run the game in compatibility mode for an older operating system to stop this - it's a known bug. I can't remember if I had to mark the actual Civ2.exe, the ToTPP.exe, or both in that mode however. Try one, then try the other, then try both to fix it

 

[Locopath]

1. Cool.
2. FYI I reloaded an autosave and attacked the Americans that were generated, and got a popup saying "Chinese and Americans cancel peace treaty". So it seems like they didn't get set to declare war.
3. Cool, maybe don't punish the AI (Americans and Soviets) though, they're both going on quite a conquering spree on my game and I'd imagine will be economically crippled very soon. But maybe that's a desired behaviour for too much AI war too!
4. Cool.
5. Bug fixed, cheers!

 

[amadeus]

This could be changed going forward. I agree it doesn't make much sense for it to happen with air strikes.

I’ve also had to reload a couple of games where defecting Chinese nationalists capture Tokyo.

 

[JPetroski]

With HoF in the hands of others, it's time to start working more seriously on this.

I'm going to use counters much more liberally in this scenario. They allow for great customization and are one of my favorite parts of Prof. Garfield's template. Specifically, they allow one to manage new "mana." As I've mentioned briefly before, there will be a few more:

Prestige - How prestigious a great power is and how easily they can influence others.
Influence - The amount of influence a great power has over a minor.

How it Works
-Essentially, every single country that can be influenced in the game (all the minor nations) will have five counters, one for each of the five great powers (USA, USSR, Europe, Non-Aligned, and China).
-Each one of these counters represents how much each of the great powers has over the minor.
-These five counters will always add up to 100, thus any actions that increase influence for one great power, will decrease it from another.
-"Neutral" nations would have 20,20,20,20,20 - states that aren't influenced by any particular power.
-Different levels of influence will open different diplomatic options:

<=20 influence - no options available - you have no influence, effectively, with this nation.
>20 and <=30 influence - you can spawn some small rebels in the nation (i.e., you have to have more than a "neutral" interest in the land to get any rebels.
>30 and <=40 influence - you can spawn moderate rebels in the nation
>40 and <= 50 influence - you can spawn major rebels in the nation
>50 influence = the cities of the nation revert to your pro-civ (or Europe, or China, or Non-Aligned) control. This can be done without firing a shot.

Majority influence (greater than any other great power) - the minor nation will "vote" with you on United Nations decrees.

So, how do you spread your influence?
-I may *possibly* allow all civs to use trade in this version, since I can cut back on some of the major advantages the west had with this in historic Civ2 by reducing the payouts in science etc. Thus, establishing trade routes may buy influence.
-Spies may influence the minor nation.
-You may directly spend "prestige" to influence the minor nation.
-You may send arms shipments to the minor nation.
-You may help develop the minor nation by purchasing city improvements or tile improvements for them.

**Note that all of this is planned for the AI to do via probability roles each turn, making diplomatic calculations and spending influence too.

How Do You Get Prestige?
-As of now, I'm thinking Prestige is calculated at the start of each turn, spent by the AI afterProduction each turn, and then reset at the end of each turn since we now have that trigger. So, the following would be ways to increase your prestige (some effects would only last so long, as controlled by flags).
-Each great power will have its own Prestige Counter. Some calculations for each turn (each would have a value as of yet to be determined):

Increase of Prestige
1. Civ with greatest number of technologies at start of turn
2. Civ with largest army at start of turn
3. Civ with largest navy at start of turn
4. Civ with largest air force at start of turn
5. Number of "Pro" cities - value for each (for Europe, China, and Non-Aligned, total number of cities)
6. Civ with first satellite
7. Civ with first man on moon
8. Won a war in last 10 years (I plan on having "objective based" wars for the historic ones i definitely want in the scenario - Korea, Malay, Vietnam, Afghanistan, etc.)

Decrease of Prestige
1. Current Negative Event that hasn't been "fixed" (civil rights, strife in Soviet lands, labor strikes, etc.)
2. Lost a War within last 10 years
3. Pollution (not sure quite how I will count this)
4. Impoverished Society (will probably check and see how many cities have certain improvements compared to how many cities there are).
5. Number of Nuclear Weapons
6. Use of Nuclear Weapons

That's the thought process anyway. Any thoughts?