The critique of Humankind's basic economic and city building system: the root of balance issues

Discussion in 'Humankind - General Discussions' started by Krajzen, Sep 1, 2021.

  1. Jkchart

    Jkchart Emperor

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    I mean, they do have that with the personalities, but it's tailored to only a few items so if you know what they're good at it can be easy to overcome...but I do agree with this
     
  2. Taefin

    Taefin Prince

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    Maybe if those AI strengths scaled with Era. Someone suggested using the Era^2 formula applied to influence costs for this. I might keep it linear for bonuses that already apply in a multiplicative way, but a +era strength or -10%*(1+era) on unit cost could really accentuate the difference between different personas later in the game. I want someone to produce a carpet of units in industrial, and +7 anti aircraft could start dealing some real damage to the EM EU or line infantry I’m usually fighting with in the endgame.
     
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  3. Lazy sweeper

    Lazy sweeper Warlord

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    No builders, no roads, no fortifications per tiles, no trenches...
    It's boring, compared to civ VI, it's fine.
    compared to Civ III, IV, V, is absolutely boring.
    Sea ransacking a no-no. As no other build other than harbours for sea resource.
    Rivers don't get dynamic over time.
    Time runs too fast.
    It's nice to see critiques starting.

    As the OP says, the pop cap is a limit, so it was in Civ 2.... I see it as a good thing...
     
  4. Auberon

    Auberon Chieftain

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    City population caps tied to some buildings* (and thus to the technologies you need to have them) coupled with an interdiction to construct new quarters until your cities are full or overpopulated could be a solution.

    * What I call buildings are the things you build that you don't place on the map, I am playing in French, so I must translate. I may use the wrong terms.

    With a more restrictive stability, I think the whole thing could avoid the snowballing effect.

    But as I am not an expert player, far from it, I could be totally wrong.
     
  5. Don Andre

    Don Andre Chieftain

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    As someone mentioned pollution, I also think it should be more gradual, but also think that eg the existing trees should be taken into account, not just newly planted forests. (As a sidenote it is extremely simplistic to consider forest as the only and ultimate counter to pollution).

    Pollution should be unlocked by techs. Eg makers quarters increase pollution as you research better production techs and also AQ should produce pollution. The others to a lesser degree.

    That way it's inevitable to have pollution. I played a game without any pollution at all by just not building anything from the sawmill onward. Still I got a lot of production by building more districts. It's insane that human progress is possible without something like a sawmill, tractor, or steel mill. These are pretty essential!
     
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  6. PSG

    PSG Warlord

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    I have rarely seen pollution be even a trivial factor the way I play. Maybe it's because my victory condition is to win by finishing the tech tree...
     
  7. Tigranes

    Tigranes Armenian

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    Can I ask you please how do you finish it in 300 turns? I always run out of turns with 8-10 techs still in the pipeline...
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2021
  8. Taefin

    Taefin Prince

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    Addressed a couple of times in other threads, but consensus seems to be (or at least what I do) is focus on production early (use researcher specialists to get early-mid techs you need) and somewhere in early modern or industrial start building a bunch of research quarters. Many games I don’t even take a science culture but those make it even quicker. The key there is that by getting production higher earlier, district build time drops to 1-2 turns and so you can add a ton of science very quickly. I’ve never played it out that far but I’d probably finish the tech tree ~T240 in most games without doing any more serious science investment.
     
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  9. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    And taking a science civ later where you can convert your prod into science is what easily gets you to the end of the tree early.
     
  10. Cherenkov

    Cherenkov Warlord

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    Finishing the tech tree is boring but it is currently the only way to win a science game until they fix the mars colony bug that was introduced in the Sept 17 patch. The fastest I've finished this way is T215 on HK difficulty, just go something like Egypt->any->Khmer->any->France->Turks in the end. If you anticipate the Turk public school by creating rings of research quarters then you just drop the Turk EQ in the middle for thousands of science. With enough territories you'll pull 50k+ science easily and finish the tree really fast. A Mars Colony win is much less mind numbing and you skip Turks and go Aussie for building the 3 science projects in just a few turns. Don't know why it is taking so long for them to fix that bug :(
     
  11. Karmah

    Karmah Emperor Supporter

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    That's the only finish I know so far :) I'm now sub 150 endings (normal speed/large map/8 AI , HK difficulty) by researching the final techs . Completing the whole tech tree (picking all techs which is not requiered to win a science victory as they are many leaf techs) happens to me usually if I go past 170 in a meh game and I need some time to close the gap to a runaway , those are games I finished 2nd usually instead of being a dominant first. I said it other times in other threads but if you rush late game era and get the turks ,focus in building the schools and surround them with science quarter, your science skyrocket in the higher 4-digits (I almost ended-up 5 digits once) and the tech tree get blown in a few turns.
    It get blown so fast in fact that I can't even get the mars running , even so I build all projects in one turn to get more fame , the tech tree get consumed too fast. I'm sure it is just a question of a few turns but when you run out you run out and the game is over :)
    Now I admit there is no much glory here , I focus prod early with Egypt , Achameneid to get mooar cities and prepare an aggressive snatch of 'the new world' , khmer to get more prods , ming to stabilize my overexpansion and pick up civics (those are a comfort pick I'm sure some alternatives could be better even so I'm not fan of the others ) , Siam or French (the jury is still out but I'm leaning toward Siam nowadays to get some side gold) , and ...turks. It's basically a bunch of OP civs and this is definitely a vanillia strats , and it's ok as the game is vanillia currently ;)

    All of this is in fact possible because I have a lot of prod , which echoes the general sentiment in this thread
     
  12. Lazy sweeper

    Lazy sweeper Warlord

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    Confucius district as first Zhou gives you a lot of early science, if you then get the Khmer baray later on, that is INSANELY poweful district, easily the best district around!
     
  13. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    A lot of science with mountains within your cities districts.
    The Baray is crazy good yes, most strategies choose it because it is so, If you halved its bonuses or made it the AI’s first pick … or both, things would be better unless you enjoy being OP.
    Just finished a civ game as Trajan, reminds me why I don’t play the Romans much.

    The thing is, you do not need the Baray to win, you do not even need it to win in style, there is just so much OP in the game
     
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  14. Taefin

    Taefin Prince

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    I keep coming back to what could discourage going all in on production so that we could keep cool production cultures, but not make it just the best of everything. A real stability penalty for each quarter, or maybe causing each quarter to require influence to maintain, would give a reason to get other quarters before boosting production. Or making Baray a hamlet replacement? Or just or take away the production bonus to rivers, exploiting both is already pretty good.
     
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  15. NombreyApellido

    NombreyApellido Warlord

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    nerfing in the name of balance got us here. it's what made money a non issue and slavery a featuren't

    neutering what little remains of good is the actual game breaker

    find way to get money to reflect wealth production and let it snowball. the same with population. stop making influence (culture) a scarce thing by bloating its related dumps. give religion its relevancy back

    they have been trying to force parity in the results by way of taking diversity out and setting blocks and limits

    no wonder why everything doesn't even makes sense
     
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  16. Taefin

    Taefin Prince

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    I’ll bite, that sounds like a pretty good theory of the state of the game to me.

    Add that the lack of conflict in mid-late game takes away the one thing you might use production on, hundreds of units to engage in industrial era wars.
     
  17. NombreyApellido

    NombreyApellido Warlord

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    sorry if i sound a bit jaded. honestly, i'm not trying to be mean but it pains me to see the same approach attempted time and time again expecting different results


    sometimes it's good to have a look from other perspectives and to get another vantage i urge you guys to consider the discussion on the subject of buffs vs nerfs on the fighting and FPS game genres

    anyway, i really do hope those modding tools to become handy soon so we can all put our economic theories to test
     
  18. KrikkitTwo

    KrikkitTwo Immortal

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    I think 2 things are needed

    1. Specialization each thing can be used for its own but it grows (Have money be the only way to get units... until some industrial era civic gives you the option to build them with industry)/ Let pop grow a little bit faster... maybe excess food supports military units as well as allowing population growth
    So Standard units are bought with money and supported with food....Some later Civics/LTs let you support units with money, and other Civics/LTs let you build units with industry

    This stops one yield from being the "yield that does everything"

    2. A strong Time dependent Empire Size Stability Penalty.

    There should be a "Cap" on Empire size(ie total attached territories), but it should get worse based on the amount of time above the cap. So you can build a large empire, get some fame bonuses before it collapses after an era or two. (and then work on rebuilding if your Golden Age Was Ancient-Medieval)
     
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  19. NombreyApellido

    NombreyApellido Warlord

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    i think of it as a card game. four suits. one can get you two others, for the third one you need the wildcard. it's played against the house

    the house could be stability, the less you have your cities and outpost go independent... the further from the capital, the pricer they get

    wildcard 1 could be religion

    wildcard 2 could be the neolithic legacy trait

    both should allow you to get a "full" deck

    we had this game not that long ago, but it got patched away from us
     
  20. Cherenkov

    Cherenkov Warlord

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    Oh wow, I only just realized that I wasn't focusing on the final techs for a much faster tech finish. I was thinking how in hell did you get sub 150 endings and now I see lol. Can't believe I wasn't paying attention to this. I was just mindlessly clicking each tech as I went after I got Space Orbital. If you just aim for the end game techs you can finish this game so quickly. Especially if you go Fusion Reactor 1st for the 50% production boost.

    Knowing this now I don't even care that the mars colony is bugged anymore. Tech tree finish is way easier and faster and not dependent on resources.
     

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