The Deity Challenge Line-up #16 - China

[Gori the Grey]

I played through about 100 turns before botching everything up

Spoiler :

I settled in place. My warrior found Jerusalem and Wittenburg before anyone else, so I got Stone Circles. I went Honor, just because I'm trying to do something other than trad4turtleSV, the only way I ever win Deity. So I citideled my free general on the hill 2E to grab all of the stone and marble quickly. I had good luck with goodie huts (2 cult, 2 money, scarcher, pop at a good time; no techs, though I specifically reserved two huts until finishing Pottery and another two until after finishing Mining--hoping for Writing or Masonry, but nothing. Still, better huts than I usually get). So, yes, I had to detour to Masonry, but I got the third religion: Initiation Rites and Holy Warriors.

I had great luck with CSs, clearing barbs for them, hooking up horses and luxes. DoFs with India, Iroquois, Sweden, Netherlands at various times, so plenty of people to sell to.

Three cities, one up by Quebec City, on the horses before I knew there were horses, so incense and wine. One SW by four spaces. Was going to go a bit further W, but saw Dutch settler and tried to anticipate him. Still, cotton and cocoa.

Three city NC by turn 82. Frankly, I'm doing as well getting cities and infrastructure up as I would in a tradition game. But, hey, I went Honor; gotta try to use this thing. Gotta go attack someone. What I find disconcerting is that everyone is so far away. Well, India is close, but he's valuable as a friend. And long slogs through rough terrain to get to, say Askia, to the west.

I've built or bought or faith-bought 5CB. I've got an Impi from Sofia, pike of my own, two or three swordsmen, horseman, catapult. Jenne, to the W of Jerusalem, is strength 16, how hard can this be? Why not start doing some warring before the upgrade to CKNs?

Mandekalu Cavalry one-shot CBs. Since I don't war much, I haven't really factored in Askia's UU. My groovy invading force, well, the important part of it for imminent CKNs, wiped out in a couple of turns.

Honestly, the next time I play one of these I'm going to play to my ordinary playstyle, even if it has gotten boring. My experimenting with other approaches is getting me nowhere.

 

[consentient]

@Shark Diver

Spoiler :

On Deity, just taking capitals feels just fine to me

Congrats. Added you to the sheet.

 

[Shark Diver]

@Gori

Spoiler :

How many turns were you away from CKN's?

An idea, particularly if you are warring as a civ that has a strong UU, is to time the wars to your advantage. Since Chivalry comes a bit before Machinery (usually), you attacked Askia right when he's at his strongest and right before you are at your strongest. He's more vulnerable before the MC's or a bit later when those horsies are redundant. Instead, you got him before your own UU and right in his prime.

I took out France first in my game because I wanted him dead before Musketeers. Hiawatha's Mohawks were outdated by the time I fought him. By the time I was fighting Askia, my CKN's all had range and I had Impii to deal with old horse units (and he had a ton of them). When I took on Sweden, his UU's were very much outmatched by my FL's/Infantrymen.

It's nice when you can choose your opponents, I know, but geography and geopolitics don't always allow this, but it sure does make warring a lot easier when you avoid UU disadvantages. I learned this the hard way in the Mongol DCL as I was unable to penetrate Poland before W-Hussars and had to pull back (need to go finish that game sometime soon).

Also, and hopefully you consider this constructive criticism: Using an early GG to claim your own land is a bit of a waste, especially an overpowered GG like China's. Yeah, there's a lot of them with China, but they are very valuable and not to be squandered on something that you could have bought for < 200 gold. Of course, I avoided the quarry pantheon and ended up shut out of religion…..but the point is somewhat valid.

Are you going to try a replay with your "normal" tactics? If so, what about Full Tradition then Honor? You should be done with Tradition before CKN's are researched. Just a thought…...

 

[kb27787]

I played through about 100 turns before botching everything up

Spoiler :

I settled in place. My warrior found Jerusalem and Wittenburg before anyone else, so I got Stone Circles. I went Honor, just because I'm trying to do something other than trad4turtleSV, the only way I ever win Deity. So I citideled my free general on the hill 2E to grab all of the stone and marble quickly. I had good luck with goodie huts (2 cult, 2 money, scarcher, pop at a good time; no techs, though I specifically reserved two huts until finishing Pottery and another two until after finishing Mining--hoping for Writing or Masonry, but nothing. Still, better huts than I usually get). So, yes, I had to detour to Masonry, but I got the third religion: Initiation Rites and Holy Warriors.

I had great luck with CSs, clearing barbs for them, hooking up horses and luxes. DoFs with India, Iroquois, Sweden, Netherlands at various times, so plenty of people to sell to.

Three cities, one up by Quebec City, on the horses before I knew there were horses, so incense and wine. One SW by four spaces. Was going to go a bit further W, but saw Dutch settler and tried to anticipate him. Still, cotton and cocoa.

Three city NC by turn 82. Frankly, I'm doing as well getting cities and infrastructure up as I would in a tradition game. But, hey, I went Honor; gotta try to use this thing. Gotta go attack someone. What I find disconcerting is that everyone is so far away. Well, India is close, but he's valuable as a friend. And long slogs through rough terrain to get to, say Askia, to the west.

I've built or bought or faith-bought 5CB. I've got an Impi from Sofia, pike of my own, two or three swordsmen, horseman, catapult. Jenne, to the W of Jerusalem, is strength 16, how hard can this be? Why not start doing some warring before the upgrade to CKNs?

Mandekalu Cavalry one-shot CBs. Since I don't war much, I haven't really factored in Askia's UU. My groovy invading force, well, the important part of it for imminent CKNs, wiped out in a couple of turns.

Honestly, the next time I play one of these I'm going to play to my ordinary playstyle, even if it has gotten boring. My experimenting with other approaches is getting me nowhere.

Spoiler :

Mandekalu cavalry are only different from knights in that they have no penalty against cities... normal knights (esp with the promotions AIs get on deity) still would've chewed up your CBs... You need XBs to fight knights.

 

[Shark Diver]

@Consentient

Spoiler :

I guess my point is that India, a pretty strong civ, fell in 2-3 turns. The writing was on the wall, and this game was won long before, but it just seemed a bit anti-climactic.

Of course, this is far better than Civ2, where, IIRC, You'd smash everything is sight, then have to go track down some 1-hex city out in the ocean or wipe out every last unit hiding on the map. That was frustrating.

 

[Shark Diver]

Spoiler :

Mandekalu cavalry are only different from knights in that they have no penalty against cities... normal knights (esp with the promotions AIs get on deity) still would've chewed up your CBs... You need XBs to fight knights.

@KB

Spoiler :

You are correct, but it really does "seem" like Madekalu Cavalry are a lot stronger at times. Those things have always given me fits. Probably one of my least favorite UU's to go up against…..especially if the timing is wrong.

 

[Gori the Grey]

@Shark and kb

4 turns away!

Yeah, I know. I should have waited for CKNs. What I was playing against was my impression that people who do dom victories try to conquer their first civ with CBs. I thought I'd take one enemy city and use it as the territory for upgrading to CKN. I almost never do offensive wars.

Spoiler :

Askia was well into a war with France, so I didn't think he'd have that many troops.

No, Shark, I never replay. I feel as though everything I learned about the map the first time would give me too much of an advantage.

 

[Shark Diver]

Spoiler :

Askia was well into a war with France, so I didn't think he'd have that many troops.

No, Shark, I never replay. I feel as though everything I learned about the map the first time would give me too much of an advantage.

Spoiler :

Ahhhh, I see. When Darius attacked France in my game, I joined in the DoW and got some valuable XP, gold, and cleared a big section of open operating space for the France invasion that was going to come as soon as my CNK's were ready. The difference is Persia knocked down the walls for me and you didn't have that advantage. Also, you picked the wrong target of the two apparently. Partly luck, but also I knew that Darius had his UU available and France didn't so I could guess that Persia would be getting the better end of the deal.

Also, if Songhai was already fighting France, did you ask France for some money to DoW their enemy?

Regarding replays: I agree with you. I've only really done it once, with GRRRRRRRRR Rome, but I needed to figure out how I had gotten beaten as soundly as I did. I lost again on the replay, barely, but got a ton of learning experience from it.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

@ Shark Diver

Spoiler :

Oh nice job going with a Domination Victory! A little flip flop since I went with your usual SV this time. I played an odd game but I usually do. I had fun though and enough wars which I enjoy. I could not crack France before SV though since I was not willing to take out any CS's in fear of problems with my DOFs. One thing I do that I hardly ever see anyone do is give up my cities and land at the end for Peace.

I updated your statistics page as best I could with the info you provided. It took me a long time to get your Demos Image upoladed so you could view it but I finally figured it out. It was always coming up too small.

I also need to revise Medals/Awards but you and KB have more coming after I revise.

 

[Shark Diver]

@ Shark Diver

Spoiler :

Oh nice job going with a Domination Victory! A little flip flop since I went with your usual SV this time. I played an odd game but I usually do. I had fun though and enough wars which I enjoy. I could not crack France before SV though since I was not willing to take out any CS's in fear of problems with my DOFs. One thing I do that I hardly ever see anyone do is give up my cities and land at the end for Peace.

I updated your statistics page as best I could with the info you provided. It took me a long time to get your Demos Image upoladed so you could view it but I finally figured it out. It was always coming up too small.

I also need to revise Medals/Awards but you and KB have more coming after I revise.

@ F.A.

Spoiler :

Thanks, twas a fun game. I have started out going for DomV several times, but it hasn't always worked out that way (Dutch game is still heading that direction). I would love to have finished much quicker, but am thinking I'm just a bit too methodical/defensive in my tactics. I'm not sure how others do it, as I have never watched an LP to the end, but I lost no more than 5 units the entire game. My impression is that this is a low number?

I was waiting for your site to develop a bit, but finally checked it out the other day. It's a good concept and the layout seems good to me. When I clicked on my name, it told me that my info was private, so I'm guessing I have to do something there?

 

[consentient]

@ Shark Diver

I think 5 units is probably 'middling to fair', as we would say in England. The very best players whose LPs I watch rarely, if ever, lose units.

I myself play more recklessly (not by choice) so tend to lose maybe more than 5. I would be happy with losing 5 if it meant I could consistently win Dom with that strategy. However, my Liberty DomV % is probably around 60% and I'm yet to win with Honor, despite chalking up endless easy wins with it on Immortal. I'm just not good enough at keeping the science to a decent pace.

 

[Shark Diver]

@ Shark Diver

I think 5 units is probably 'middling to fair', as we would say in England. The very best players whose LPs I watch rarely, if ever, lose units.

I myself play more recklessly (not by choice) so tend to lose maybe more than 5. I would be happy with losing 5 if it meant I could consistently win Dom with that strategy. However, my Liberty DomV % is probably around 60% and I'm yet to win with Honor, despite chalking up endless easy wins with it on Immortal. I'm just not good enough at keeping the science to a decent pace.

That's sort of what my impression was. Losing 5 units is actually quite a bit for me, but you sort of get sloppy when the outcome is a given. Normally, I have rigid formations and always try to have an escape route before entering battle. Now, if the AI actually learned how to move 1 hex and then shoot……..totally different story.

I think I'll start keeping track of unit kill ratio. I think it was Civ2 that used to do that for us, right?

 

[consentient]

Not sure about Civ 2. It was a ridiculous game in so many ways. A few hundred hours of Civ 2 was the reason I didn't play another Civ game until one day I got sick of Skyrim and found BNW.

 

[Fluphen Azine]

Wow!! So you missed out entirely on Civ IV??? 50% of Civ players still swear by it compared to BNW and will not even try Civ V. I made the change because I prefer 1 unit per Hex/Tile and the scenery is nice but they made a new skin for Civ IV or at least that is what I heard. Civ IV (IMO) is by far the superior game with so many more options for game play. I still get a boot out of Slavery... It took a little time to learn but you could whip your population into shape and make your Empire explode. Also you really have the option of either a cottage Empire or Farm Empire in that game compared to Civ V which Farms is way better than Trading Posts.

Problem with SPT and Warmongering

Spoiler :

I am surprised you are having this problem. I play my games with very low spt compared to most players. I find that spt will take care of itself later in the game after I have taken many cities/capitals. Take for instance that #10 DCL game where I only went 1 city and only used puppets till I decided in mid game to annex a few of them. That game was a perfect set up for low spt since you have all Civs very close to each other to make sure they war with each other keeping spt low for everyone. It was Moriarty who said that it is great as long as you do not have some tech giant on a continent all alone teching like crazy. Of course he said if that is an issue you can always switch to Diplo VC.

@ Shark Diver

EDIT: @ Shark Diver

Spoiler :

I am pretty sure that I can make all your info private. I might be able to sign you up from the inside. Email accounts are free though and it is not that hard to set up a dummy email that you use only for that site. I'm having a little party right now but I will check after I wake up on all the details.

I am still trying to figure out how to put a spreadsheet inside my web pages on the site. If you get a look at my Egypt ICL game 13 you will see how I wrote up everything that I am tracking but it is a pain to write down all that info while your playing.

 

[Shark Diver]

@F.A.

Yes, I was able to view all of the pages. When I saw "private" I didn't realize that was a military rank (kinda funny). I like what you've done. I can give you some more detailed benchmarks from the China game if you'd like, but you've got most of them in there (I built several other Wonders that I neglected to put in my write-up).

Suggestion: Create a cheat-sheet with all of the various benchmarks/statistics you are looking for. That will make your job much easier and will allow players to easily keep track.

I went in to register but it asked for my email address. I prefer not to share that publicly. Is there any way you can keep the email private?

 

[Shark Diver]

Wow!! So you missed out entirely on Civ IV???

.[/SPOILER]

I've never played Civ IV either. I didn't have the amount of free time I've had over the past year so would only occasionally play G&K, always Immortal/Marathon/Domination games that lasted for months (lack of playing time contributed). I never bothered with much strategy besides hack & slash until I stumbled upon this site.

Now I'm very addicted to BNW, but sadly, my free time will be much less in 2015 (this is a good thing……more diving!!!!!).

 

[consentient]

I have played Civ 4, but only subsequent to having first played Civ 5 BNW. I have to say that even if the actual gaming dynamic is superior, the playability sucks, and the game is not complex enough. I can't even bear G&K or vanilla after having played BNW. I was at a friend's and he only had G&K and vanilla and I was bored so quickly.

 

[Acken]

I've started that game.

Spoiler :

I'm at turn 100 after CKN upgrade, killed two people with CB (songhai and William). Had some luck with William's GW I think. I expect to roll over everyone with CKN, capitals look very weak

@Gori The Grey:

Spoiler :

CB timing is BEFORE NC, not after. If you wait T90+ for a 5 CB attack you won't make it.

 

[consentient]

Nice job Acken. Are you recording it for those of us that desperately want to see you do a commented DomV LP?

 

[Acken]

Yes I'm uploading those first 100 turns