The Deity Challenge Line-up #31 - Ottomans

Don't get all salty, man. Thing is, a game where you aim on a fast finish and your lands are virtually undefended are always treading on thin ice, sometimes that gamble doesn't pay off, bribes are a no-go and I'm pretty sure we've had many restarts where a late multiple DoW is pretty much KO

I'm not denying that fact, far from it. I just didnt like the way it was said is all. I think i'm entitled to that.

As for bribes they worked quite well until that AI decided she could war 3 people simultaneously, which coming from spain aint something i saw often. I got multiple DOWed late more than once but most of the time it happend i had trouble bribing AI i saw as threats early on.

Anyway, my game was faaaar from being perfect, or even good, so i'm not saying the game cheated me or anything. It's just always annoying when it happens and having someone state the obvious and giving the impression he didnt even red any parts of the story (i mean, not even stating the proper VC i was aiming for ?) is not especially helpfull. I'll take any advice any day, especially on how i could have sped up my Cultural Victory to avoid the risk of those late game dows. But a simple "you should have make more units" and "you can get a SV on any map" is just a no no for me.

I think my main screw ups here were :
- building cultural buildings too late (i was building them while popping archeologists)
- Getting to archeology too late, though i reached a fast 30 pop in my capitol. (Edu 110, ST 155/160 or so, archeology 175 something)
- Massive screw up with city states. Never managed to get any befriended. Even worse, i had the malus from attacking 2 different city states early for workers... Thought only 2 were mad but actually all CSes were -2/turn with me or worse. Decided to go on just to punish myself so i never do it again ever :lol:
- Still struggling with culture early but that goes back to CSes screw ups mostly as i still got decent times on artist\writer guilds.

So yeah, plenty of room for improvement here.
 
Still a lot better than my Indies attempt which I managed to finish in semi-reasonable time due to sheer number of archeological digs spread around (I think I managed a whooping 10 total) and tourism never going over 400. The most I ever got was a 750ish Carnival powered output.

I think for the midgame the cultural and maritime CSs are worth the most, it can even drive the Rationalism up so you can to the finisher around the time for Internet.

I tried to create a single thread to compile all tips and tricks for a deity CV, hit that up for feedback
 
Yeah, i think i could have reached something like 500 hundreds base tourism, 1k with olympics. But basically, going for a CV with arabia that has nothing to help you there when you dont really know CV intricacies was certainly a risky move in the first place. But one 's got to learn right ?

I'll hit that thread see if i can see something i did wrong. Though i'm pretty sure i should have aimed for LToP and not SS when i made my pick after rationalism. But i was worried i'd get printing press too late to try it when acoustics was the next tech and no one had entered renaissance. I actually was the 2nd civ in renaissance, which is something i dont see happening often. Was surprised.

Eventually i tried LToP but got beat to it by 2 turns by...... freakin Attila..... was like DUDE, what do you even need that for ????!
 
I had reached 250 tourism, getting ready for olympic games, spamming hotels and stuff... And despite me bribing spain and every other civ to maintain a constant world war, i got DOWED by 4 civs simultaneously.

I have a working hypothesis that the SP game is hard-wired to involve the player in war. When I try to peacefully turtle, things go badly. But if I am strategically involved in war, the AIs behave much predictably. I have no idea how to test this hypothesis.

From a designer point of view, the player not getting involved in war would mean they are missing out on a major aspect of the game. Rather your first or your thousandth, my hypothetical has-the-player-had-enough-war flag would be there every game.

I m feeling like cultural victory attracts more attention to you when SV remains stealthy when you just build parts and set them up all on the same turn, seems the AI doesnt see you coming.

Even when I build the parts fast or slow, the AIs don’t care. It bothers me more that the AIs will not cooperate to kill a CV runaway.

...go for a late SV (which unlike culture leaves much time for building units during late game).

I have trouble finding times for units in SV. My late game BO in every city is:
solar/nuke power plant -> robotics factory -> SS part

The cap has Hubble and HE, so might put out a couple units, but often the cap builds two SS parts, so it is busy too.

This game I had janissary-fueled Infantry and Sipha-enhanced helicopters to grief Attila, but they never got very far.
 
Are you saying that in a game, there is a fixed minimum number of wars that will happen?

I mean, it's quite common for me to finish a game and not get involved in a single war, including the ones where you steal workers
 
Are you saying that in a game, there is a fixed minimum number of wars that will happen? I mean, it's quite common for me to finish a game and not get involved in a single war, including the ones where you steal workers

Yes, that is my hypothesis: The game wants the player in at least one post-Renaissance war. A skilled player can avoid war, but I think it is actually very tricky to pull off. Since I am inclined to turtle, I can say my own experience with trying to be involved in zero wars the whole game have not been very successful. My last many games, I try and war selectively -- not to advance a VC, but just to keep things a little interesting. The out-of-the-blue-DOWs are much rarer for me now...
 
Alternative hypothesis: because you are involved in an occasional war, you actually have some units around, and the AI is more likely to DOW if you don't have any units
 
Alternative hypothesis: because you are involved in an occasional war, you actually have some units around, and the AI is more likely to DOW if you don't have any units

Yes, we all get that: lack of units invites a DOW. That is a simple and pretty well understood game mechanic. I am suggesting that there is something else in play in addition to that. But if anything, nowadays I have fewer units around my core cities.

And for information, when i say no units it's still 4 artilleries, 3 machine guns, and 2 battleships in the most exposed cities with walls.

That seems like plenty of units to me -- except that maybe cazaderonus had not tripped my hypothetical has-the-player-had-enough-war flag?
 
Wait, you mean the human player must fight at least so many wars? I don't think that holds water, unless you count the ancient era "YOINK" kinds of wars
 
Wait, you mean the human player must fight at least so many wars?

Yes, I think there is a hidden game mechanic that has a heavy bias for this. But “so many” is just one.

I don't think that holds water, unless you count the ancient era "YOINK" kinds of wars

No, I am not counting ancient era wars at all. Yes, it is a radical assertion. Keep an eye out for it, or maybe suggest a way the hypothesis can be debunked? We know that some players do manage game-long peace (for themselves anyway) but it seems to me that those players are all very skilled with deep understanding of civ5 diplomacy. We also know that a frequent complaint (still) is the out-of-the-blue DOW from AIs that have been friendly all game-long.

If the game did not have a strong bias for involving the human player in war, I think there would be far fewer complaints about the psychotic AI. It seems to be that there are many players that want to turtle while playing honorably (that is, not bribe the AIs to war on their friends) but they are consistently thwarted. When is the last time you tried to play so naively?
 
Turn 242 Science Victory

Spoiler :
Fairly uneventful I'm afraid. I thought I was off to a monstrous start as I managed to get DF, Petra (turn 80ish) and Hanging Gardens (6-7 turns after) in Instanbul. Spain however had Pagodas and Jesuits so I was hoping that she would spread to me. Somehow despite having 16 faith per turn (geneva got allied from a quest) from something like turn 20 or so, five religions got scooped up with the 5th being exactly when I had 211 faith so crisis averted as all the beliefs left were pretty crap as the computer actually took pretty good stuff. NC followed shortly after with a 4 city traditions build. Indonesia/Polynesia was massing a ton of wonders and Poland/Attila/England had completely eaten up the Celts by the time I arrived with astronomy despite beelining it (skipping construction entirely).

I went for a frigate rush which took out Indonesia's capital for my 5th city. Prize ship caravel was actually ok here since Indonesia was allied with a CS that kept feeding me triremes that I would then suicide for Jarkata's city attack while my frigates pounded it down.

Polynesia had spread all over the damn map and I unfortunately had a Declaration of Friendship with him that wasn't expiring for some time. By the time it did, his cap had 66 defense and I didn't really feel up to task with using all my troops to break in when Attila had then turned on England swallowing her whole and ending up massing along the Indonesian border. Hilariously it was Polynesia who I planned on attacking that warned me about Attila planning a sneak attack on me so I decided to turn the navy around. I could've defended as it had a narrow border against me to funnel troops as Indonesia had surrounding lands but I made the mistake of bribing for cheap (it was only 8 gold per turn) for Attila to attack Indonesia instead. Indonesia got annihilated in something like eight turns but it gave the Huns major hate from the remaining three other nations (Spain, Polynesia and Poland respectively who eventually all simultaneously DoW'd him

Of course since this was continents, they proved to be absolutely useless at any sort of offense against him and a grand total of zero territory changed hands till they made peace eventually. I ran out of money to upgrade all my frigates to battleships and made some mistakes blowing money on buying some Jannisaries because I thought it would've been cool to have them upgraded all to riflemans since I had blitzed along the bottom side to get to research labs. At that point since I wasn't making too many great decisions I just decided to settle on a SV win since my research was taking off. I didn't have LtoP since that was taken a long time ago by Polynesia along with Taj and all the other nice goodies but I managed to get Porcelain Tower.

Rest of the game was fairly uneventful SV standard stuff except I Oxforded Radio to take Order as I predicted Polynesia who was getting to be a tourist giant from all the wonders and artifact hording was going to pick Order as well. This gambled paid off as even though I missed out on Statue of Liberty, everyone except Attila (who went autocracy) followed suit to Order.

Launched a turn later than I could've because I didn't check my GS spawner to realize one was going to spawn the last second for the stasis chamber bulb so I didn't buy a GE till the turn after.

 
Spoiler :
5 cities liberty, got petra and big ben,no wars smooth sailing
 

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I went 6-city Liberty, got Navigation around t143 (after Currency and Metal Casting), but after taking Jakarta, things kind of went downhill. I grabbed London easily with Frigates, but by the time I swam them to Spain, Isabella had the largest military -- and by the time I killed her initial Armada, she produced more ships. Right now, it's a stall-fest with me trying to clear the ever-coming units. I also DoW'ed Attila and razed a city of his, but now his carpet has come to claim my units, and moving my units over the straight is a bit difficult. And the main problem is happiness.

I might replay this one but not make more than 4 cities. Might give Honor another try.
 
After a failed attempt at 4 city Tradition, I gave the spoilers a look and decided to copy the 6 city Liberty strategy Acken used. Note a noteworthy finish but a fun game. Time to get cracking on Songhai. Thanks again for these. Needed to distract myself from my dissertation somehow. lol.
 

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I am new to this series and do not intend to change the amazing work that you all have done in the past. I do not understand the nature of reload/replay of a game that is supposed to be a challenge. It seems that is the norm for these threads and for most players of this game in general so be it! I suppose I will have to start making some restrictions for my own personal games inthe future.

I realized that I was on the coast this game and I could of grown nice and tall keeping my cities on the coast. I was hoping for two neighbors and I was going to try to keep with Full Liberty and take over my Cont and try for a CV since my first three DCL games have been the other three VCs and this would complete all victories challenge.

It seems that I will have problems this game since Spain is the only neighbor and she did not expand my way. I have not seen one of her workers yet and I decided not to steal any from the CS's. I did build the pyramids which helps with workers and improvements. I certainly am not happy with my current situation and if I could stomach it, I would restart. The problem for me and that is for me not for you all obviously is that if I restart a game it is impossible for me not to know the lay out and where the ruins are and I do not see how that can compare to a blind game from square one.
 

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I do not understand the nature of reload/replay of a game that is supposed to be a challenge.

The games can be enough of a challenge that, absent retries, many of us will not win. You can try the GotM or HoF if that is more to your style.

I certainly am not happy with my current situation and if I could stomach it, I would restart.

Whichever lets you enjoy the games the most. I would encourage you to try writing out why reloads/replays makes you feel bad. It is hard to have a coherent explanation for that.

The problem for me and that is for me not for you all obviously is that if I restart a game it is impossible for me not to know the lay out and where the ruins are and I do not see how that can compare to a blind game from square one.

Why go all the way back to the beginning? Just go back to where you would like to revisit decisions. But getting more ruins is not that much of a crutch.
 
@SongHooLoo: For a lot of people, myself included, these games are a challenge even with restarts/reloads. Deity is hard, and even with prior map knowledge these maps can be extremely difficult to complete, especially for players who have just moved up from a lower difficulty level.

I personally try not to restart maps (exception was the recent Songhai DCL) but I do admit to reloading once or twice. I don't reload for lost units, lost cities, unexpected DOWs etc, but instead for changes to my overall strategy like a different tech path/build order; reloading back 10 turns and comparing the two attempts really helps me to analyse my plan and learn from my mistakes, thus contributing an overall improved game. I explain any reloads in writeups and hopefully my explanations help others too. For me these challenges are first and foremost fun, but also a great way to get better at Civ.

I think a full restart is fine after a failed attempt though. At least try a full game and, if the map gets the better of you, afterwards restart. There's obviously nothing you can do to forget the map, but after a full game you're unlikely to remember all ruin positions unless you have an eidetic memory :)
 
Not saying you're wrong, it just feels kind of far-fetched tbqh
It's not wrong. It's just weak design. CiV AI is meant to provide the illusion of challenge, rather than outright present a challenge. It's difficulty with achieving victory conditions, for example, is as much a concious design choice as it is a reflection of a poorly constructed AI.

There are multiple mechanics in place which push the AI to war with the human player specifically. Subsequent expansions and patches have eroded that somewhat, but it's hard to tell how much of that is a design goal, and how much of that was attempting to erase the idiocy on full display in vanilla. Chain denunciations, a hallmark of vanilla, were ridiculous to the point of being laughable.

I'm sure much of the underlying code heavily reflects both the original Schaeffer design, which is where all of this originates from, as well as the various attempts the subsequent development team(s) made to remedy it.

@SongHooLoo: For a lot of people, myself included, these games are a challenge even with restarts/reloads. Deity is hard, and even with prior map knowledge these maps can be extremely difficult to complete, especially for players who have just moved up from a lower difficulty level.
The key is to recognize that you'll be behind for a long time, until some point about halfway through the game when you're expected to catapult into the lead. High level players can catch up sooner. Steam statistics revealing the vast majority of players don't even complete games (assuming they even start more than 1-2 total) also reveal that most players would likely bail on Deity without even realizing that their position is stronger than they think, or at least not as weak as it would appear to be.
 
The key is to recognize that you'll be behind for a long time, until some point about halfway through the game when you're expected to catapult into the lead. High level players can catch up sooner. Steam statistics revealing the vast majority of players don't even complete games (assuming they even start more than 1-2 total) also reveal that most players would likely bail on Deity without even realizing that their position is stronger than they think, or at least not as weak as it would appear to be.

Interesting. I've never completed a Deity game, though I've started dozens and dozens, and I usually give up after about 150 turns, because it usually looks hopeless. Perhaps I'm more typical than I thought. I'll have to stick with it a bit longer.
 
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