The Deity Challenge Line-up #40 - Korea

[zxcvbob]

Thanks. I'm not discouraged, I'm just playing out of my league... for now. Thought it would be cool to get the Flawless Strategy achievement and impress my daughter; she introduced me to Civ two years ago.

 

[Sclb]

You can easily win a deity game for the achievement if you choose Duel, pick opponent to be Venice and no CS on the map. But DCL are more interesting to win.

Regarding this map, if you don't have enough gold to buy parts, you should try to repeatedly trade for 51 gold using your 2 gpt, do this in any multiples, on any AI which you have DoF with. When you run out of gpt, you can DoW some of them to recover your gpt then trade more. It should work if you have stock exchanges up.

 

[beetle]

Thought it would be cool to get the Flawless Strategy achievement and impress my daughter; she introduced me to Civ two years ago.

That is a good kid! Assuming you don't want your first Deity win to be pure cheese, I would suggest Sweden or Venice aiming for DiploVC.

The other thing is that DCL OP usually contain a link to previous games. The current DCL #41 lists them grouped by difficulty, so maybe try Spain or Russia?

 

[redrum68]

Pretty easy game as Korea is just so strong for SV. Just need to make sure to keep the AIs fighting each other and tech up. I think this is also my 6th win in DCL now

Spoiler :

So interesting start with the extra worker, scarce resources, and AI getting some bonuses. Seemed to even out to equal about a standard game in terms of difficulty and timings. Pretty much went a classic 4 city tradition SV. Great spots for cities with all of them being river and mountain. That combined with Korea UA let me easily get to >1600 research/turn. Probably could have won faster if I micro'd more towards the end but got bored and started just clicking next turn. The one thing that was tough for most of the game was getting gold as with scarce resources there wasn't many resources to sell.

Summary:
Turn 79 - 4 city NC
Turn 98 - Education
Turn 113 - Astronomy
Turn 147 - Scientific Theory
Turn 179 - Plastics
Turn 233 - Victory

 

[LordBalkoth]

OOC Cultural victory.

Spoiler :

 

[Blatc]

I'm continuing to work on my science game and find replaying DCL maps, where I can compare with what others have done, to be more instructive than re-(re-re-)rolling to get strong maps.

I'd like to hear other posters input on what is preventing a sub-T200 on this particular map? Korea is one of the best science civs, the dirt is good, we're even given bonuses to kick-start the game.

After scouts and shrine, I quickly kicked out 3 settlers to establish 4 cities, all with mountains; the sparse mountains on this map are perfect, as you can get observatories in all cities, but they aren't taking up many of your city tiles. Reached Education in the 90s, Scientific Theory in the 140s (1 GS bulb), used Oxford on Radio, and Plastics in the 170s (1 GS bulb).

Room for improvement:
*I forgot to plant my first GS; once I remembered, I decided not to plant any and use 1 each on ST and Plastics. Not sure how may turns difference this would make. I did plant 1 prophet instead of founding, as neighbour to W had good religion.
*late-game timing: put 10k beakers into The Internet
*no WLTKD in capital

A few things I'm starting to notice:
*while taller cities are better, being productive enough to get all the specialist buildings completed and tall enough to work the specialist slots is what matters most. I find I'm still building the final few specialist buildings when I'm already bulbing GS towards Rocketry
*still struggling to figure out where to put Markets and Banks into the build order; I know I should get them built earlier (I hard-built most science buildings this game, as I just didn't have enough gold), but not sure when as there is so much else to build
*winning WF is so incredibly helpful and not as impossible as I used to think. I didn't build Statue of Liberty, but was still able to finish Rationalism and put 3 into Commerce
*the early game is extremely important to get things rolling. Korea has very little advantage in the first 100 turns, which contrasts significantly with Babylon and the Shoshone (I think they're probably in the 2nd tier for SV simply because their bonuses are immediate). Earlier NC/Education/Renaissance means you have a better chance at LToP and PT; while I did build both, I had to delay things like Ironworks. Early NC/Ed/Ren also makes it easier to have your 7th or 8th policy go into Rationalism instead of Commerce (2nd Commerce policy is particularly wasteful, though necessary for Mercantilism).

Spoiler :

 

[vadalaz]

Could you post your Education and ST saves?

 

[Blatc]

Could you post your Education and ST saves?

I've attached T90 and T140 saves. Education should come up soon after T90, ST after T140 if you bulb.
As I said, not planting any GS was likely a mistake, so maybe don't do that.

 

[adcarrymaokai]

I think I played the first 100 turns, and my growth was so crazy that happiness problems were imminent, while production in the Eastern and Western cities kind of sucked. I really need to think about production in my Tradition games.

 

[vadalaz]

I've attached T90 and T140 saves. Education should come up soon after T90, ST after T140 if you bulb.
As I said, not planting any GS was likely a mistake, so maybe don't do that.

I played from T90 and won on T206. Perhaps I would've gotten the sub-200 if I signed some RAs. I didn't plant any GSs. That's probably about as good as having one academy anyway. I bulbed one GS for Radio, used Rati finisher on Plastics and Oxford on Satellites. Korean UA seems to be affected by PT and Rationalism finisher as I got Atomic Theory for free after finishing Oxford as well.

From T90 to T140ish:

- right away I purchased some Gem tiles, they're good tiles to work and it's good to have something to sell to the AIs
- Rationalism opener was my 8th policy. I beelined Acoustics and had to reassign some citizens so they wouldn't get culture from pastures to time things right.
- I focused heavily on faith. Built HS in the capital before the uni, prioritized Temples in expos. By ~T140 I had all the mosques up and 3 holy sites. I got one faith-bought GE (SoL) and two GSs. I think I would've been able to get 3 GSs if I allied the religious CSs earlier
- I tried to get my guilds up as soon as I could (which was quite late), Writers' Guild after the university in the capital, Artists' guild in the western expo around T140
- Tech order: Acoustics -> Metal Casting -> Astronomy -> Sci Theory. Rough build order: Temples -> Universities -> Workshops -> Observatories -> Markets -> Public schools -> Banks. Skipped Market in the capital to fit in LToP and only built it post-Plastics. Very busy build queue this game

Spoiler :

 

[Blatc]

Vadalaz, what would be your key suggestions for me to work on both pre-T90 and post-T90?
I will likely give this map another go, trying to fix as many mistakes as possible.

 

[vadalaz]

Your city sizes seemed a bit low on T90. I think the fastest tall games have one thing in common, they all finish Tradition early. It's kind of luck-based with the ruins and CS quests unfortunately. Perhaps as Korea you can prioritize Oracle over fast NC, as Korean UA will actually give you more beakers if you have a more expensive median tech. Another thing regarding growth: personally I try to avoid sending external trade routes except the very first one when playing Tradition. You really want your cities to grow fast.

Perhaps it was a mistake to plant your first Great Prophet. You probably wouldn't be able to spread your religion beyond your capital, but having +15% growth in the capital is really good. Tithe doesn't hurt either, even if it's just 5 gpt.

Don't delay building the guilds too much. City-states often ask for GWAMs, and culture per turn helps with Rationalism policies and border growth. Korean UA makes guilds even stronger. I like to have Writers' guild before Education and Artists' guild by T120-130.

Don't ignore faith. Aim to have enough to buy at least two GSs by the turn you want to win on; 3 is better but can be difficult without a good pantheon or CS luck.

But really, it's all about growth when all you have is 4 cities. I'm personally not a huge fan of 4-city Tradition or Deity so take my advice with a grain of salt.

 

[claudiupb]

Not planting any GS may be a mistake. The math works for the first GS on a normal science game, but with Korea you get +2 beakers, so that is even better.

 

[Blatc]

Following the input from Vadalaz and other adjustments, here's a comparison of T90 autosave (so T91)

Previous game T91
City pops at 10, 6, 5, 7 = 28 total
City food at +20, +10, +6, +14 = +50
Capital has NC and Oracle
Education in 6 (T97 Education projected)
Science 67 bpt; this includes 2 from planted prophet (becomes 3 with NC)
Culture 17 cpt, 22 turns to next policy
Faith 11 fpt, did not found, about to purchase a Mosque from spread religion
Gold 2gpt, 620 saved
Happiness +5, GA in 3

Adjustments
-purchased gem tiles; as I had +2 faith from gems as my pantheon, this helped in multiple ways
-more emphasis on faith buildings (shrine, temple)
-built Oracle before NC, which led to completing Tradition earlier
-founded religion instead of planting prophet; considered just getting the +production and +growth, but opted for Mosques over the +production
-perhaps the biggest adjustment: almost every turn, I micro-managed workers (this is new for me) and city tiles (I've started doing this recently). So, I was completing worker builds and adjusting city tiles to maximize production when growing. I also pre-built some 2/3 roads, which I hardly ever do.

Differences
-received 3 TR from the West vs. 1-2 in previous game
-intended to send TR East but no city within range, so I sent first TR to capital. I normally send 1st external, as Vadalaz suggests
-scouting is much worse this game: I had significantly more trouble with barbarians. On the plus side, I got 2 scarchers, but am not done dealing with the nearby barbs
-put 500 gold into Mercantile CS that I'd completed a quest for


Current replay T91
City pops at 12, 6, 9, 7 = 34 total, 6 pop increase
City food at +33, +8, +11, +9 = +61
Capital has NC and Oracle AND Hanging Gardens
Education finished on T90, just started building Universities
Science 74 bpt; only 5 from TR at this point
Culture 17 cpt, 22 turns to next policy (exact same)
Faith 16 fpt, founded & enhanced: tithe, mosques, swords into plowshares, reliquary
Gold 14gpt, 70 saved
Happiness +3, GA in ~20

I intend to plant one GS. If I head straight for Astronomy, I will open Rationalism as my 8th policy, so I'll do that and then go Metal Casting/Printing Press/Sci Theory. I plan to ignore the faith wonders and get Writers guild up before Astronomy, though I'll be careful not to work the specialist slots if it'll mess up timing. Hopefully will build Artists' guild before I hit Printing Press, as LToP will be a priority.

Edit: I've been looking for luxury trades most turns, will no WLTKD success but lux for lux going well, and I've just started checking in on cities with 2 turns until next pop to see if I can decrease that to one (as I'm working gem tiles in 3/4 cities, I can adjust city tiles for a 2-3 food increase).

Later Edit: taking Mosques instead of +production was a terrible idea, unless grabbing a faith wonder. There's just too much to build in 200 turns, with very little gold coming in from strategics, and there's no point getting Mosques in expos for 400-600 faith. Going to try yet again from the turn I founded on.

 

[Blatc]

Micro-managing workers/tiles each turn can really pay off! Here's another T91 update, taking +production instead of Mosques when founding religion and selling luxuries/investing in CS during a stretch where in the last game I was >10 happiness for a while, which is basically throwing away gold from lux sales and leads to a less valuable/earlier first golden age.

Current replay T91
City pops at 14, 9, 10, 7 = 40 total
Everything else seems to be the same or better. I think I got into a bunch of lazy/bad habits during peaceful games, which wouldn't have as much impact in DomV.

 

[vadalaz]

Nicely done! 40 total pop vs 28 in the first run is a massive improvement.

 

[Blatc]

I was able to trim this down to a T200 SV. Minor trouble with bulbing: I had enough science on T198 to get final tech, but there was too much overflow and it didn't complete until T199.

It's very difficult to get everything built before you start bulbing; I was finishing up specialist buildings quite late and didn't get a Stock Exchange in one city.

Money situation was never great. I think I built every science building in the 3 expos and only bought observatory/school/lab in the capital.

Mid-game, I DoW'd civ to the West who had 3 prophets and 1 missionary in my borders; I was able to plant 2 of the prophets. Once I had 3,500 faith secured, I sold temples and shrines.

Spoiler :

I'll keep looking for ways to improve, as I'd like to eventually be close to a T200 SV without replays.

 

[CellKu]

Hi Blatc, thanks for explaining and posting your saves. I learned quite a bit from them. I have a few questions:
1.) When I started playing I had to secure the spot first where you put Daegu otherwise the western neighbour would have taken it. I retried it a few times just to see whether that was bad luck, but it was always the same. What did you do to secure this spot for so long?
2.) Did you DOW more than one Citystate to steal workers? How many workers did you actually build?
3.) Did you build all your settlers in the capital? Did you chop forests to reduce the no. of turns to build them?
4.) How did you manage to squeeze in Hanging Gardens? Did you research math before Philo?
5.) It appears that you settled all your cities before building NC, is that correct? If so, since I couldn't find the settling dates in the log, do you remember on which turn you settled the last one?
6.) Could you post your last save as well (the one with the 40 pops)?
Thanks, I appreciate your efforts.
CellKu

 

[Blatc]

Hi Blatc, thanks for explaining and posting your saves. I learned quite a bit from them. I have a few questions:
1.) When I started playing I had to secure the spot first where you put Daegu otherwise the western neighbour would have taken it. I retried it a few times just to see whether that was bad luck, but it was always the same. What did you do to secure this spot for so long?
2.) Did you DOW more than one Citystate to steal workers? How many workers did you actually build?
3.) Did you build all your settlers in the capital? Did you chop forests to reduce the no. of turns to build them?
4.) How did you manage to squeeze in Hanging Gardens? Did you research math before Philo?
5.) It appears that you settled all your cities before building NC, is that correct? If so, since I couldn't find the settling dates in the log, do you remember on which turn you settled the last one?
6.) Could you post your last save as well (the one with the 40 pops)?
Thanks, I appreciate your efforts.
CellKu

Thanks, glad someone else learned from them, that's great to hear.

1) I think that was always available to me, in multiple play-throughs. I always DoW'd the Western neighbour for at least 1 worker and caravan.

2) I only DOW'd the CS to the South and had a scout camped out nearby, getting 2-3 workers. I don't DOW more than 1 CS, as there's a diplo penalty with other CS.

3) All settlers built in capital. Forest chops were used and I pre-chopped starting T2.

4) No AI opened Tradition as first tree; HG was after Oracle and NC. Math was after Philo,

5) Yes, settled all cities before NC. Not sure on dates, but given the game was altered and we start with a worker and Mining, it would be earlier than I normally have 4 settled.

6) I meant to post the final T91 save, but must have messed up. Saves are all gone now.

 

[InaneObserver]

Hmm, can't edit the title, it's meant to say SV. This DCL is still hovering around the top of the board, so I thought I'd give it a go. Pretty straightforward game with the craziest finish I've had so far in a game.

Played it once, with a few reloads after mistakes and a surprise DoW (that turned out to be not preventable).

Spoiler :

I DoWed Russia early to prevent them settling nearby and used 2 scouts and warrior to kill her warrior and take the settler. Classic religion, 5 city Tradition. Education around t93, ST in the t140s and Plastics at turn 179.

My biggest problem was happiness; it may have been a mistake to settle the 5th city Another mistake I seem to keep making is settling too far away from the cap just to find better dirt. AIs settle the spaces in between, and linking takes too long.

At turn 216 my friend Pocatello backstabbed me, making me lose over half my trade routes, and flooded the area with units. His territory was so intertwined with mine that I couldn't hold all cities, so I started selling off buildings right away. He took my 3rd pretty fast, and I had 5-10 turns where my cap was vulnerable and I had to keep melee units away, but lasted long enough to launch. I I had not taken the 6 unit Freedom policy to resurrect Russia, he would have taken the cap. The crappy science at the end is due to the loss of a city and selling off science buildings. The attack was annoying at first, but kind of cool in the sense that the game can still surprise you.