The Deity Science Challenge

[Grendeldef]

so far in my games, Iroquois, China, Greece, and Ethiopia have been removed from the game, China more than the others, so the AI certainly does it, just not as a priority.

Damn, I want some variety, too China always gets wiped & America has a tiny 1-4 city empire while others are large or huge.
Due to lack of time I was combining the general OCC & OCC in this challenge speculation - a somewhat rhetoric rant as much as a proper approach to philosophy of OCC since I didn't want to derail the discussion too far.

The AI unwillingness to wipe out the player in true OCC game is what puzzles me the most. With superior military when the opposition is non-existent or nowhere near to be threat to own cities why take ~0 gpt, no lux, no money peace deal instead of just conquering the city. AI doesn't suffer that much diplomatically and unhappiness isn't an issue so why not ?

In this particular challenge though I was wondering if the rare resource tiles were more in favour of very small or even OCC empire rather than 5+ settled cities. In general I was of the opinion that optimal sci game was 4-6 cities + puppets but I haven't played a single proper sci game in G&K due to the RA bug so I'm not sure if I have an opinion of the matter anymore.
Surely some extra resource tiles would help a wider empire more but would it tip the balance any more than slightly.

I also started a new game with Babs, lib start but due to T50 DoW by Washington I did 2 city NC @T74. I continue this at least for awhile before deciding if/when I'll finish the Maya one.

Btw, HammerR, did you remove some oil tiles near the starting location or is this just one of those unlucky oilless maps ?

G

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i didnt do much with resources other than make sure some aluminum would be available since this is a science VC and making some CSs have various resources after I placed their locations.

i couldnt remove them after uploading the save without having everyone download it again so if you've seen oil in one game but not another it must be some bug issue I'm not aware of.

I've had Iro have as few as 3 cities and lead the score until about t200 from wonder spamming. They also had as many as 10 or 11. i've had Ethiopia go as small as 3 but as wide as 10 or 11 cities and couple puppets too. I've never seen China go larger than 5 and almost always wiped out by t230. Greece was wiped out once but it was very late and a combination of America/France taking his many cities. France had over 30 cities in that game (including China's cap), 25 of which he settled. Genghis also has a lot of cities but usually 10-25 settled and always a couple CSs conquered. America was maybe 10 cities in the first game I played but since has only been 4-8 at best.

i know the challenge is science but im curious how a dom victory would play out since the AI has so much room to expand. I wont bother with it since im bad a dom, but all VCs are enabled so its not like any rules are being broken. At this point I dont expect a lot of results from this challenge, so if combat is more fun then go for it.

btw, I tried Siam last night and quit twice pre-t50 because i had crazy barb harassment. 2 settlers taken by barb spawns on the turn they get to the top of a hill, constant wheat/wine pillaging, and 2 lost scouts in the first 50 turns. I had to clear my head since the barbs didnt harass me nearly as much in any other game. i'll try again with them though.

 

[Grendeldef]

i couldnt remove them after uploading the save without having everyone download it again so if you've seen oil in one game but not another it must be some bug issue I'm not aware of.

No, nothing fishy here - it's just one of those oilfree maps again. Having a desert without oil isn't new but the coastline was suspiciously free of oil.

i know the challenge is science but im curious how a dom victory would play out since the AI has so much room to expand. I wont bother with it since im bad a dom, but all VCs are enabled so its not like any rules are being broken. At this point I dont expect a lot of results from this challenge, so if combat is more fun then go for it.

I'll try to play the games roughly the same way whether it's an optimal way or not but I admit I'm not made for peaceful games any more - I'm too used to puppets as money makers so for me at least this a learning process as well. That's why I started with Arabs as a reference game but it went horribly wrong - I'll prolly do another try with them as well. The main problems with a militaristic approach were the distance to Nappy & Alex while Washi was hiding behind jungles & swamps. Later warmongering would be a lot easier with artillery but the path there is derailing.
The challenge seems a bit tricky or people are just unwilling to publish their results.

btw, I tried Siam last night and quit twice pre-t50 because i had crazy barb harassment. 2 settlers taken by barb spawns on the turn they get to the top of a hill, constant wheat/wine pillaging, and 2 lost scouts in the first 50 turns. I had to clear my head since the barbs didnt harass me nearly as much in any other game. i'll try again with them though.

Barbs have been some trouble to my scouts but not so much with pillaging. The worst is when a barb camp is tactically located on my selected city spot or on a tile next to one. The salt island is particularly effected if there's a camp.

G

 

[DGDobrev]

Does it, in this case, also make it easier ? Just curious since I haven't played an OCC since Civ2.

First, I admit that my views are biased since I always thought that OCC is/should be harder way by quite a margin to pursue any VC but especially in G&K. Obviously OCC is limited by the choice of civ to use. The main problem seems to be AI's reluctance to conquer the last city which doesn't make any sense when DoWing a civ with only one city. The obvious motive would be capturing the city but AI tends to be satisfied with a non-profitable peace deal without an apparent reason while it happily conquers CSs.

At first glance the map didn't seem that good for OCC but after few completed games & few more up to T100-200 the map doesn't seem to favour wide either unless the stars align in extremely lucky way.
Very easy to get 5-6 cities with a unique lux but the lack of resource tiles makes population growth vs production a bit on/off choice. This is particularly tricky later in the game when one should've oil based units.

G

Easier? Not at all. You will still have happiness problems, and there is usually little time to build happiness oriented buildings or wonders, as everything needs to flow inexorably from the pre-set goal - in our case, the science victory. There is no time to deviate building or tech-wise - you want to have cash or to be able to build your science building in as few turns as possible. You also want to have culture, so when you're not building wonders or buildings, you want to work on the opera house, then hermitage, then broadcast tower. That's very hard to squeeze in, as it is tough to find the right balance. In OCC there is always an aspect of the game that's lagging. If you focus on science and culture, your money situation will be poor. If you go for money and science, you'll gain new policies in like 30+ turns.

This makes for a fun to play, but still exhausting game, as you can't just click next turn, next turn without doing some planning - unless you want to reload from your autosaves every 15-20 minutes cause something didn't go so well, or you missed a milestone, or you failed to maximize efficiency properly.

So OCC has its own tricks and rewards, but its traps too... No growth and no efficiency will lead to worse than a mediocre game.

 

[Grendeldef]

Easier? Not at all.

Thanks, this (all of it) sounds just about right to me and while OCC seems intriguing it's still competitive at best.

G

 

[tommynt]

ended this with babs in turn 192, but I did quite some reloading, not so much cause of random events as loosing units but when I figured I made mistakes.

Dont think any civ is better at science wins as babs-peaked science at 1700+ bakkers and had both an excesive GE and GS in end.

Map seems pretty good for maya aswell but babs are just more powerful I think

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

glad you tried this one. it can be quite boring to play the same map many times but im glad you gave babs a shot at it.

 

[tommynt]

got gl in like turn 55 .... and attacked france - just when they got muskets - bad timing - could still take some

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

wow, gl. ive never seen it last past t45. went as soon as t30 several times for me. nice.

 

[DGDobrev]

I'd venture a guess that if tommynt played aggressively, the AI switched to military unit production rather than wonder-building. In such cases only civs with high wonder-building value will stubbornly keep on building wonders. Almost all will turn to unit production to counter the threat.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

yeah, but its hard for me to get to meeting hiawatha and ethiopia before t30-40. ive had them and china and france build GL. but tommynt operates on a strange level. he dows at t6 and steals an AI (not CS) worker or dows another early turn to kill a settler but doesnt have anything but a scout, warrior, and archer. that's a game mechanic/strategy im just not familiar with.

 

[DGDobrev]

I tried it. Not easy to get some leverage on deity, but you can certainly find yourself with 5-6 Bowmen by T30 if you meet, sell, loan, and then dow everyone you meet. that's lots of cash which can be used to buy bowmen (and/or upgrade to CB) and go make a CB rush at someone. Washy and Nappy are prime targets for that.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

i watched a little of his france deity videos and they are interesting but i just dont understand how he knows to do that stuff. he knows when to dow very early and somehow miss warmonger status because he hasnt met everyone.

i took a break from civ for a few days but i intend to get back to the challenge shortly just not sure when.

 

[DGDobrev]

Well, I am also on a break - mainly due to XCOM. I have really fond memories of playing the original when I got my first PC in 1998, so... couldn't help but getting the other one too. Brings back tons of memories

On the topic, I also dont know how does he do it. I watched one of his videos when he was playing as the mayans, and he completely ridiculed Austria who had the bad luck of spawning close to him.

 

[tommynt]

i watched a little of his france deity videos and they are interesting but i just dont understand how he knows to do that stuff. he knows when to dow very early and somehow miss warmonger status because he hasnt met everyone.

i took a break from civ for a few days but i intend to get back to the challenge shortly just not sure when.

civ5 is very easy. Once u know how the ai is coded at about like u can just abuse this into your favour.
Its kind of same in mp - once you know what your opponent is gonna do its easy to counter USUALLY

I'd venture a guess that if tommynt played aggressively, the AI switched to military unit production rather than wonder-building. In such cases only civs with high wonder-building value will stubbornly keep on building wonders. Almost all will turn to unit production to counter the threat.

yes thats right, I think same
I built/bought some uus - so my military went up and ais were ok to make peace with me.
Thats a HUGE mistake many players do - they kind of ignore military - and then ai dows them instead other way round - fighting a defensive war early on just suckz ..
DOW them instead!

gogogo some1 else - the map is a quite good one, pangea like but no real close threats so u can expand/build quite some time allone if u want to. Also the 2 religios CS make lots of sense - as religion in a deity game is otherwise just - well - nonexistant ...

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

random irritations about this last game i played:

1. as maya, i had early religious pressure up against a large French religion. i was doing a little sprawl so i could lock down a coal tile for factories, i had 7 settled cities plus about 6 more converted to my religion (3 of Americas, 2 CSs and 1 of France's and maybe a couple more). i had Religious texts but not yet to Printing Press. My furthest city north east by the river full of jungles and an incense EVERY TURN would notify me that it had been converted twice, once by me and once by France. We both had 4 citizens following and equal pressure (+24). it was really irritating to be told twice every turn while never getting a religious hold on my own city.

2. I had Valletta (the military CS south of America on the peninsula) allied while at war with America. they never moved to attack Americas city while having about 15 units, they couldnt even have every unit in their territory they had so many units. I had my southern most city down by the pearls on the marsh to get access to Krakatoa. It wasnt a city that needed defending with La Venta and Jerusalem as a decent buffer from France. Well, that war with America, he blitz-allied with Jerusalem (i was friends but not allied) who proceeded with the most efficient unit placement ive seen. In 2 turns Jerusalem lined up 7 units (4 crossbows, 2 knights and a pikeman) and promptly took that city in 2 more turns of attack. Yes, I ragequit because my allied CSs dont do squat while theirs bumrush with better efficiency than some human players. it is mind-bogglingly frustrating to lose a city to a CS.

 

[tommynt]

dont think krakatua is worth it.

I generally dont settle cities which wont be size 10+ (more like 15+) untill like turn 160.
Better to concquer some good ai city spots instead imo.

So a city with a general not so good land using 1 tile with 0 food and production its not gonna develp fast.. well with buying it a early granny and having some marritimes it can be something useful later on maybe ..

for me the spot in jungle with faith hill was way more important jungle - makes for constant growth early on and gives a science powerhouse later on

As I m now playing a replay with maya i m not sure if u should do a liberty ICS like approach or stay with a 4-5 city tradition build.
In fact i should proly try the ics to compare the 2 strategies - but i see tradition just winning .. in end it just matter how high u peek and 1700bakkers at turn 180 - cant imagine this with smaller ics cities.

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

dont think krakatua is worth it.

I generally dont settle cities which wont be size 10+ (more like 15+) untill like turn 160.
Better to concquer some good ai city spots instead imo.

So a city with a general not so good land using 1 tile with 0 food and production its not gonna develp fast.. well with buying it a early granny and having some marritimes it can be something useful later on maybe ..

for me the spot in jungle with faith hill was way more important jungle - makes for constant growth early on and gives a science powerhouse later on

As I m now playing a replay with maya i m not sure if u should do a liberty ICS like approach or stay with a 4-5 city tradition build.
In fact i should proly try the ics to compare the 2 strategies - but i see tradition just winning .. in end it just matter how high u peek and 1700bakkers at turn 180 - cant imagine this with smaller ics cities.

i wasnt actually working krakatoa. it wasnt even in my borders. i wanted the pearls and if i settled on the marsh i would eventually get the 2nd pearls to sell in the 3rd ring of tiles. krakatoa might have been used when i hit 10 pop but not earlier.

i wasnt spending my money very well. bought a worker, settler and a library to start NC quicker. i had 1 food CS and 1 mil CS but otherwise i had to rush buy a couple archers and upgrade them to cbows then crossbows. i took tithe too but i still had a hard time focusing on where i spent the money. unlike you i still havent stolen AI workers. just 1 CS worker, built one and bought another.
i need to try that, early dow to take an AI worker.

 

[woodshadows]

ended this with babs in turn 192, but I did quite some reloading, not so much cause of random events as loosing units but when I figured I made mistakes.

Dont think any civ is better at science wins as babs-peaked science at 1700+ bakkers and had both an excesive GE and GS in end.

Map seems pretty good for maya aswell but babs are just more powerful I think

that's a lot of beakers, how'd you manage that with babylon? spam academies on every tile?

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

oy, now that the patch is out i might have to redo this with a different map. gonna play it to see if it is really necessary though. prolly take a couple weeks for me to come to a conclusion. should be a better map, too.