The Dutch Empire

[BCLG100]

Specifically concerning the periods 1600(ish)-1700.

Lectures today was about the development of the Dutch 'Empire' specifically the Asian and Indonesian parts of it and even more specifically the VOC (Vereenigde Oostindische Compagnie). Now what i got to wondering was, whether this empire just happened by accident? It seems in their attempts to secure financially sound trade routes the Dutch inadvertently created an empire.

Now i havent read much on this subject personally so im more than happy for someone to prove me wrong but i was wondering what anyone else thought of it? Was the empire created by the Dutch East India Company just a nice by-product of buissness enterprise?

 

[Knight-Dragon]

More like a brutal result of their obsession with monopolizing the spice trade, by securing all the sources. The Dutch VoC was utterly ruthless, in this objective - like massacring the Englishmen on the island of Ambon who were trying to enter this lucrative market in 1623 (?), or hiring Japanese mercenaries to browbeat the various Javanese peoples into submission to their system of 'procurement', etc.

I am no expert on the details but it wasn't good.

 

[Tee Kay]

The Dutch pretty much used the same tactic in Indonesia the British later used in India - buy off small kingdoms, make them "protectorates" through various trade deals. Any resistance, and they crush them. They could be pretty ruthless, especially when trade deals are involved. The East India Company committed its fair share of atrocities (massacre of Chinese in Batavia, of English on Ambon, of natives in Taiwan, India, Sri Lanka, Indonesia). Anyway, Dutch control was actually notional in many of the areas until about 1900, and then the VoC was already bankrupted and disbanded (result of combination of military defeats, decline in trade, greater competition and a saturated European market).

 

[BCLG100]

Yes but was the empire it created a by product of what it intended to do? i.e. i'm not so sure the company went out there aiming to create an Empire.

 

[dutchfire]

Yes but was the empire it created a by product of what it intended to do? i.e. i'm not so sure the company went out there aiming to create an Empire.

It was a corporation, it's only goal was profit.

 

[Tee Kay]

Yes but was the empire it created a by product of what it intended to do? i.e. i'm not so sure the company went out there aiming to create an Empire.

The empire was there to secure trade routes and Dutch dominance in the south east asian trade, so yes it was intended, even though their primary objective might have been profit.

 

[Rik Meleet]

It all started at the latter stages of the war of independence from Spain. The country was united and focussed and succesful in the war. That created an atmosphere of cooperation. It also crippled Spain and allowed for conquest of the former Spanish colonies. England also wanted those.

More factors played a role, for instance religious tolerance and the capture of Antwerp in 1585 which led to half of its population moving to Holland. Those refugees were intellectuals, traders, artists and other "useful" people which contributed a lot.
England was a competitor for sea-domination, but was first defeated because the Dutch had some excellent admirals, like [wiki]Piet Pieterszoon Hein[/wiki], [wiki]Maarten Tromp[/wiki] and the best of them all: [wiki]Michiel de Ruyter[/wiki].

Also the [wiki]Dutch East India Company[/wiki] was created and became the first company to issue stock and this led to the financial means required to build an empire.

Those factors combined created the situation of a weak world, a strong, skilled and determined Dutch population, enough funds and no competitors.

---

It slowly came to an end because the Dutch started to lose the sea-wars with England, corruption and the slipping into an [wiki]Oligarchy[/wiki] where the rulers only had eye for themselves, putting their interests over that of the Republic.

 

[Dachs]

It slowly came to an end because the Dutch started to lose the sea-wars with England

That's right! Fighting Instructions, Monck, and Blake! Yeee son!

 

[BCLG100]

It was a corporation, it's only goal was profit.

But was it, it often attempted to secure monopolies on products which were very costly achieving and maintaining whilst in the long run that particular monopoly gave them very little profit- i'm not so sure that all that work was done just for the sole reason of profit.

 

[aronnax]

So...They created a monopoly for the sake of Imperialism?

Sounds weird....

 

[BCLG100]

Well Dutch argues that its a corporation which only goal is profit but why would a profit organisation conduct wars which in the long run gain them very little in terms of profit and often against the demands of the Hereen XVII.

Perhaps the empire was the inadvertant outcome of the initial reason for the company but those on the ground quite liked the idea of having their own empire.

 

[aronnax]

Yeah, but to do that for the very sake of it? Does not sound quite logical

I think its all purely Profits

They were so busy trapping beavers that New Amsterdam was left defences and became New York

 

[BCLG100]

Yeah, but to do that for the very sake of it? Does not sound quite logical

I think its all purely Profits

They were so busy trapping beavers that New Amsterdam was left defences and became New York

I understand what you mean. So do you think that they didnt set out to conquer these lands to gain profits.

i.e. did they set out merely to trade and then just to land in other ports or did they aim to create their own ports out of Land owned by others?

 

[dutchfire]

Well, when speaking about the Dutch Empire and the VOC, it's good to consider that the VOC only existed until 1798. Most territory wasn't occupied until later, when the Dutch Indies had become a part of the kingdom, instead of an enterprise.

In 1800, most of Java, small parts of Celebes, Timor, Sumatra and Borneo and the Maluku Islands were occupied.

 

[BCLG100]

Well, when speaking about the Dutch Empire and the VOC, it's good to consider that the VOC only existed until 1798. Most territory wasn't occupied until later, when the Dutch Indies had become a part of the kingdom, instead of an enterprise.

In 1800, most of Java, small parts of Celebes, Timor, Sumatra and Borneo and the Maluku Islands were occupied.

But thats what i am referring too- sorry if i didnt make this clear enough in the first paragraph

 

[Rik Meleet]

You cannot really speak of a Dutch Empire pre 1815, when the British returned the overseas possessions to the Dutch. Before that you should look at those possessions as trading posts.
After 1815 both the East India Company and the West India Company (who were given the trade monopoly by the Dutch government) were bankrupt. The new Dutch kingdom took matters in its own hands and from then on the focus shifted more towards landgrab than just trade.

Indonesia in 1828 (so about 15 years after the Dutch got it back)

And see this map of 1900. The very dark colour is pre 1900. Most of Indonesia became Dutch only after 1900.

 

[Tee Kay]

You cannot really speak of a Dutch Empire pre 1815, when the British returned the overseas possessions to the Dutch. Before that you should look at those possessions as trading posts.
After 1815 both the East India Company and the West India Company (who were given the trade monopoly by the Dutch government) were bankrupt. The new Dutch kingdom took matters in its own hands and from then on the focus shifted more towards landgrab than just trade.

"Trading post" is misleading. I prefer "fortress".

But, during the days of the Company, land grab was an essential part of trade to secure trade routes. That was the purpose of the failed attempt to grab Taiwan, to have a base close to China, and Batavia, to have a base close enough to have influence in the Strait of Malacca (and they did grab Malacca at one stage), and Sri Lanka to have a base close to India.

But yes, serious colonisation in the East only begin around 1900.

 

[Rik Meleet]

"Trading post" indeed doesn't do enough justice to the defensiveness and military elements of it, but it does correctly reflect its main purpose. "Fortress" is a too militaristic word for that.

Taiwan was not intended to be "grabbed", but as a base for trade with Japan and China. Once the Dutch were there they noticed the oportunities Formosa had in Sika deers. Because the trade in Sika deer hides turned out to be very profitable, as did the rice and sugar, plans to take the whole of Taiwan came up. So, landgrab was not the original intention when the Dutch settled on Taiwan.

About Sri Lanka - The Dutch were asked to come by the king Rajasinghe himself. I think the king later regretted that, though. But again, landgrab was not the reason the Dutch went to Sri Lanka.

In Batavia (Jakarta) the Dutch were allowed to build a trading post by the local ruler Prince Jayawikarta. The English rivals also were allowed to build a trading post directly across the street. As wiki states; the relations between the Dutch and Prince Jayawikarta deteriorated and Prince Jayawikarta's soldiers, aided by the English, attacked the Dutch. The Dutch won. So it wasn't the Dutch actively landgrabbing, although I do not know why the relations between Jayawikarta and the Dutch deteriorated - it could have been Dutch landgrabbing intentions after all. But then again, it may not.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

Taiwan was not intended to be "grabbed", but as a base for trade with Japan and China. Once the Dutch were there they noticed the oportunities Formosa had in Sika deers. Because the trade in Sika deer hides turned out to be very profitable, as did the rice and sugar, plans to take the whole of Taiwan came up. So, landgrab was not the original intention when the Dutch settled on Taiwan.

In any case, Ming loyalist forces (who were fighting the invading Manchus) under Koxinga (can't remember Chinese name) kicked the Dutch off the island and made it their base...

 

[sirdanilot]

The Dutch pretty much used the same tactic in Indonesia the British later used in India - buy off small kingdoms, make them "protectorates" through various trade deals. Any resistance, and they crush them. They could be pretty ruthless, especially when trade deals are involved. The East India Company committed its fair share of atrocities (massacre of Chinese in Batavia, of English on Ambon, of natives in Taiwan, India, Sri Lanka, Indonesia). Anyway, Dutch control was actually notional in many of the areas until about 1900, and then the VoC was already bankrupted and disbanded (result of combination of military defeats, decline in trade, greater competition and a saturated European market).

To my fellow Dutchmen, isn't it funny we don't get this in history class, but we do learn this nice little verse!

Piet Hein!, Piet Hein!,
Piet Hein, zijn naam is klein,
Zijn daden bennen groot,
Zijn daden bennen groot:
Hij heeft gewonnen de Zilveren Vloot,
die heeft gewonnen, gewonnen de Zilveren Vloot.
die heeft gewonnen de Zilvervloot.

It's a little verse we (used to) teach our children. It's about Piet Hein, who has won the 'silver fleet', a spanish fleet, and we sing about it as if it were a huge victory. What they don't tell us is that they probably massacred everyone on the ship just for the money! I haven't heard historic verses like these lately though, but that's probably just because they're not fashionable anymore.