punkbass2000
Des An artiste
luceafarul said:
Get thee to a chessery!
(Please, that forum is dying without you!
)
The Dutch
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Get thee to a chessery!
(Please, that forum is dying without you!
)
Richard Cribb
He does monologues
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punkbass2000 said:Get thee to a chessery!
(Please, that forum is dying without you!
I am very grateful for this vote of confidence! Besides it gives me the possibility of reaching post nr.300, my wife will be so proud of me...
I am planning a return to the chess forum next week, different personal matters + heavy schedule kept me away recently, so I limited myself to a few posts at the history forum (which requires little thinking) and on OT(which requires even less). This weekend I will have a closer look at your game, which is quite interesting.
Perhaps my aim should be to become the Doc Tsiolkovski of chess!??
punkbass2000
Des An artiste
luceafarul said:Perhaps my aim should be to become the Doc Tsiolkovski of chess!??
Aim? IS this not the case?
Richard Cribb
He does monologues
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2003
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punkbass2000 said:Aim? IS this not the case?
Now I am really flattered! Thanks - a lot...
But yes, we must get that forum back on its feet again, so I will try to post some other stuff as well.
I apologize again for thread-jacking, I promise that it will never happen again - in this thread...
Aegis
Deity
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punkbass2000 said:
Well, the French are Commercial and can get that same extra gold in the city square without having to build on the coast. That makes French city placements much more versatile than the Dutch, who must build on the coast in order to get that bonus. Plus, there is less corruption. I do not even need to build courthouses for my second ring of cities. I do anyways, just to optimize the production of those cities, but even if I do not, they still have great production.
Mr. Hyperbole said:
I would like to see how well those 4-def Swiss mercs handle Cavalry when compared to France and it's 5-def bombardment Musketeer. Cavalry chews up muskets and the swiss mercs would be just the same, only there would be a few more of them. I'd rather attack Riflemen than Musketeers. Their bombardment is absolutely killer.
Sukenis
the J'BOOtian Warlord
Aegis said:
It is every coastal square gets the extra gold. The French just get it in cities in one square. Big difference there.
Aegis said:
And I would take the Panzer over the immortal in a fight; This does not mean mush since they come at different times. A 4 point merc has a longer life span than the Musketeers. Plus riflemen make those Musketeers obsolete really fast.
MeteorPunch
#WINNING
Swiss Mercenary 30 shield 1.4.1
Musketeer 60 shield 2(2).5.1
Half price makes it better.
Musketeer 60 shield 2(2).5.1
Half price makes it better.
Pfeffersack
Deity
Sukenis said:
No, both the commercial and seafring commercial bonus only apply to the city tile.However, the commerce bonus is much higher because and it is also dependant on the city size.Excerpt from the very useful city tile production reference (who ever has written it, it deserves to have a place as seperate article in the war academy!):
Commerce :
basic value : this of terrain, river bonus applying
if city size = village : +1
if city size = city : +4 if civ = commercial, +2 otherwise
if city size = metropolis : +6 if civ = commercial, +3 otherwise
if city = capital : at least 4
if civ = seafearing & city = coastal : +1
if government = republic/democracy : +1
if golden age = on : +1
Aegis
Deity
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Sukenis said:
Ah, I believe that you are wrong on this count. It has always been my experience that the extra commerce is in the center city tile only.
Another disadvantage to building heavily on the coast is that you end up with a sprawling empire spanning long lengths of more narrow land which is more difficult to defend than a land-based sprawl simply because of the turns it takes to get units to far-flung cities.
Come on, comparing the Panzer to an Immortal? Can you get any further apart in the tech tree? Why not just compare the 3MC and the Panzer in your argument?
The Swiss Merc and Musketeer both replace the exact same unit: the musketman. Well, that and the Pikeman, of course. This is hardly the case with the Panzer and Immortal. And while the Swiss merc may be cheaper and available sooner, surviving on them while making a beeline from Gunpowder to Replaceable Parts is suicide when you have angry neighbors with Cavalry chomping at the bit to invade your lands, especially if your lands are very broad and difficult to defend because of logistics. You have no such worry with Musketeers, though. France can completely skip Nationalism and go straight for Replaceable parts, giving them a huge advantage in military technology. While the Dutch player would have to hope and pray that s/he is not invaded by Cavalry while attempting the same feat, the French would have no worries whatsoever. Stacked Musketeers will provide them comfortable defense.
And I've already stated my preference to attacking Riflemen to Musketeers. I'll attack stacked Riflemen over stacked Musketeers any day of the week. Hands down.
I am not saying that the Swiss Merc is a bad unit, or that it is greatly inferior to the Musketeer, only that the Musketeer can easily survive well into the Industrial Age while the Swiss Merc cannot. A French pikeman can defend against knights a lot better than Swiss mercs can defend against Cavalry, which is why I give an edge to the French. While the French player can depend on pikes to keep them relatively safe from Knights, the Dutch player has no such luxury with the Swiss Mercs against Cavalry.
Sukenis
the J'BOOtian Warlord
Aegis said:
Maybe I am wrong on this, but I thought that seafaring gave an extra gold on ever sea square used. I will admit to play mainly pangea maps lately so I could be mistaken. I will check this out on my next game.
Aegis said:
You lost me here. When I play, I take the land I can get. Coastal land will often prevent others from expanding on your land via ships. Maybe I am not understanding what you mean though.
Aegis said:Come on, comparing the Panzer to an Immortal? Can you get any further apart in the tech tree? Why not just compare the 3MC and the Panzer in your argument?
The point is nto how far apart they are, but that they are not used in the same time period. As the Dutch, you can skip the musketmen unit upgrade time, but as the French you can not skip the rifflemen upgrade (as easy). I took what you said as the Musketeer is a better unit than the Swiss Merc due to the stats. Since one gotten mutiple techs after the other, the simple number value is not a way to compare (like the immortal and panzer was an extream example). Once again, maybe I was misunderstanding what you were saying.
Aegis said:
I my version of the game, they do not replace the same unit. The Swiss Merc gives the side benefit of making another unit unneeded. And you can survive against an angry neightbor with cavalry. You can defend with twice as many units giving your cavalry a chance to kill the invading cavalry (with ease). Stick some sort of artilery in the city (which you should have plenty of) and you are set. More importantly, when you get Swiss Mercs, you should be able tot ake out any neighbors that might be angry when they get cavalry. A 4 point defender can take any attacking unit on until cavalry. Utilize this and your neighbors will be few and far between.
Aegis said:
I personally think the Musketeer is a very weak UU and that the Swiss Merc is a upper middle level UU. My guess is that our play styles a just different and that is why we so disagree on this. To each their own, and Civ has more than one way to play so...
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
The Musketeer in C3C is clearly a very good unit. The SM as well. And both fit for their respective Civ's strength:
SM are cheap, thus can be built by coastal cities with limited production. Musk are expensive, but if any Civ shouldn't have problems with the shields, it'll be France.
Both units allow you to skip Rifles. Musk because they are about as good, SM because you can build more of them.
The huge difference between the SEA and COM city tile bonus is that the SEA one isn't affected by tile penalty - thus, SEA Civs immediately benefit from it. COM needs cities, and a better gov first; but, the bonus for such a metro is exciting.
OTOH, no cheap structures for COM; SEA has Harbors and ComDocks.
In fact, in my book France and Dutch rate exactly the same; it's only a question of map types which one is preferable.
SM are cheap, thus can be built by coastal cities with limited production. Musk are expensive, but if any Civ shouldn't have problems with the shields, it'll be France.
Both units allow you to skip Rifles. Musk because they are about as good, SM because you can build more of them.
The huge difference between the SEA and COM city tile bonus is that the SEA one isn't affected by tile penalty - thus, SEA Civs immediately benefit from it. COM needs cities, and a better gov first; but, the bonus for such a metro is exciting.
OTOH, no cheap structures for COM; SEA has Harbors and ComDocks.
In fact, in my book France and Dutch rate exactly the same; it's only a question of map types which one is preferable.
Pfeffersack
Deity
Doc Tsiolkovski said:
Offshore Platforms are also flagged as seafaring.
Doc Tsiolkovski
Deity
Of course. And, let's not forget the gamebreaking, completely overpowered Coastal Fortresses! 
I skipped the OPs, since you'll rarely build them, and only named the more useful structures; how many games last that long? A bit like the AGR Solar Plants..
I skipped the OPs, since you'll rarely build them, and only named the more useful structures; how many games last that long? A bit like the AGR Solar Plants..
Tomoyo
Fate
And the AGR recycling centres...
Naval Power
Sailing the Seven Seas
Aegis said:
Not really. If you have a civ with a huge coastline that is really narrow (think Chile or Portugal) you will probably be able to defend the far cities faster than you could cities in a really broad civ. Until RR's, Ships (especially with the +1 move from seafaring) are faster than land units by far unless they have a very well established road network and a very fast UU. The galley with seafaring trait has 4 move, while foot units generally only have 1 (or 2 with roads) and horsemen only have 2 or an equal four with roads. But keep in mind mountains and jungle can slow down horsemen and you are not very likely to have a huge road network in the ancient age. Galleons have 4 (+1) movement and they still come ahead of railroads. Railroads follow soon after but it takes awhile to get an established network of those as well. So special circumstances excluded, ships can defend far flung colonies faster than ground units.
It's as if the Dutch are a three trait civ. I find Seafaring to be much like Commercial, as the inner city square produces 1 extra commerce when it's on salt water. Plus, cheap offshore platforms and commercial docks make the gold bonuses as good as the commercial trait. Plus, you have the +1 movement and reduced chance of sinking. Agriculture gives a lift to settler factories, and is very useful on wet maps. I'd rate the Swiss Mercenary the best Seafaring UU for any victory other than Conquest and Domination. It might be the best Seafaring one overall, taking into account the cost of the Berserk. The Dutch are the civ I'm using to try and overcome "The Great Leap" (Monarch to Emperor level) as Ision calls it on an archipelago map.
