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The Early Rush

Discussion in 'Civ4 Strategy Articles' started by Sisiutil, Sep 19, 2007.

  1. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    As the article talks about workers stealing, something bothered me a lot with the use of woodman II promo. When a warrior is nigh from the worker by one tile during war condition, obviously, the worker "knows" it's time to get outta here. But with woodman II promo, the warrior can be considered as a two-tile-fast unit (accordingly to the terrain) but the worker isn't even bothered by it and therefrom I (highly) can abuse the worker stealing trick as much as ~ 5 workers (marathon speed). However, a true two-tile-fast unit like the chariot will scare the worker even at two tiles away. Why? Is it a bug? :confused:

    BTW, great article! :goodjob:.
     
  2. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    In game terms/context, I would say yes, it's a bug/exploit (though one that I, too, have quite happily used and abused in many a game).

    In a realism context, I would say no. In "real life", the workers would say, "Gee, there's a bunch of armed men on horseback over there. Let's skedaddle!", while in contrast, they would also say, "Hmm, there's a bunch of guys with clubs... ah, they're too far away to worry about... HOLY CRUD HOW DID YOU GUYS GET HERE SO FAST?!?"

    I.e. the workers would not know about the infantry unit's ability to move quickly through forested terrain--and, indeed, such terrain would mask their approach. Unlike mounted units, which generally need clear terrain to take advantage of their higher mobility.

    But there are many elements of the game where realism is sacrificed for game balance. Tough call.
     
  3. dalamb

    dalamb Chieftain

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    The AI can read promos during combat to choose appropriate defenders, can't it? (which IMHO is not especially realistic) If so I suppose we should regard their lack of awareness of Woods II as a bug.

    Though I suppose some of the events suggest reasons for being able to tell, e.g. the event that gives "cover" explains it as "better shields".
     
  4. Manco Capac

    Manco Capac Friday,13 June,I Collapse

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    One thing I want to add: in the case of barbarian workers, they can flee as far as 4 tiles away because of their superman sight. Then it's defrinitely a bug when regarding the normal civilization, which has an increased line of sight too. I found it strange the BUFFY mod didn't anything about it like it was a normal behaviour; I'm sure every high-level player had already used that exploit once in their life! Not I am really whining about this exploit, which is almost like a part of a strategy; risky but fun. I remember a marathon game with De Gaulle where I stole over 40 workers before 1000 AD from two civs. Imagine the saved hammers. :eek:
     
  5. EditorRex

    EditorRex Master of Allusion

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    Sisiutil,
    I've been playing a lot of games lately trying either your version of the Early Rush or the strategy Snaaty recommends in his article on another thread here, where you go for early Archers and leverage the Aesthetics/Literacy tree and Great Library to get you Liberalism first, all banking on a mid-game Rifle rush. Snaaty makes the claim in his guide that early Archers is the only solid technique against the Barb hordes you get at Emperor and Deity. His strategy counts on battling the Barbs for XPs and using a fog-busting/blocking strategy to ensure they're a bigger problem for the AI than you. Your version of the Early Rush does address Barbs, but you imply they aren't a big deal even on Emperor. Personally, having tried both strategies, I like yours with Barbs off and his with them on. I'm also finding high-level games with Barbs on are really difficult on bigger maps where there's too much fog to bust. I'm interested in whether you have any thoughts beyond what you said earlier about this Barbs issue with the Early Rush.
     
  6. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    After trying a few games at Deity, I have to say that the barbs are an absolute pain in the butt at that level and therefore Snaaty is definitely on to something. I haven't tried his strategy, but on my few games at Deity I've had to prioritize Archery in order to survive.

    Below Deity, however, I've been able to hold my own against barbs and still manage an early rush. Some of this may depend on circumstances (which civ you're playing with, the location of strategic resources on the map, etc.), but usually I'm able to manage.
     
  7. TheMeInTeam

    TheMeInTeam Top Logic

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    Spawn locking the barbs is reasonable enough on standard maps on deity a good % of the time.

    However, obscene AI bonuses + city count makes rushing somewhat impractical at that level.
     
  8. EditorRex

    EditorRex Master of Allusion

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    I tried a different approach in a game I started last night that may answer this question. Big maps, if you have Barbs on, you have to add more rivals. Bumping from 8 to 14 rivals made for an entirely different game dynamic. Not because of the rivals, but because of the effect on Barbs. With fewer places to spawn, they've been much more manageable throughout this game and I've been able to get down to business. At about 900 A.D., Liz just vassaled to me; I'm a tech, military, population and land area leader; and just used Lib to get Nat and start building the TM. Economy's so-so, but I've got 900 in reserves from trades. (Very lucrative to spread Literacy around the world once you've built the GL, and doesn't it make you feel good about yourself too?) I've got Ragnar and Napoleon on my borders, but they don't pose any real threat. I'm only playing on Prince, but I think the Barb edge with more rivals will be the same for the higher levels since the principle doesn't change. I did have a great start location (capital fat cross included iron, 2 fur, sheep, with deer, corn, wheat, silver, 2 gold, marble and horses just outside the cross), playing as Willem. Also worth noting that CREATIVE really comes into its own as a trait on the larger maps.
     
  9. Wodan

    Wodan Chieftain

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    Nice article. The main bone I would pick is the emphasis, nay, demand on use of early UUs (when you have one). And saying a neighbor with counters for your UU means you can't rush. Yet, the article also says that a civ without an early UU can indeed do an early rush.

    I'll be contrarian (or provide an extension of the above logic) and say that Egypt can do an Axe rush quite well, for example.
     
  10. Ataxerxes

    Ataxerxes Chieftain

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    Actually, one of the best Axe Rushers is India. Starts with mining and has fast workers. I don't think Egypt is the best example for an axe rush, however. They'll be competent at it, but I'd rather look for horses first. I don't think he's demanding you use your UU. Another very valid point is starting technologies influence the rush (such as India).

    Editor Rex: You're quite right and it applies at any levels, most of all at higher levels. With more civs you have fewer barb problems and more opportunities to rush. In most cases, adding more civs for the map size makes the game easier, especially at slower speeds. Also, at higher levels, the AI's maintenance costs decrease to the point that if you have fewer than the normal number of Civs, you are in for a very rough time.
     
  11. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    I may have emphasized rushing with an early UU because that's what they're for (and that's how to have the most fun with them), but demanding? I think the article covers how to perform an early rush regardless of whether you have an early UU or not. The biggest factor in the potential success of an early rush is not the presence of a UU, but the map (which includes the location of strategic resources and potential opponents, etc.--all of which the article explains, I think).

    So, with all due respect, I think you're being unfair.
     
  12. Wodan

    Wodan Chieftain

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    Maybe a bit unfair, yes. But let me take some phrases out of context to illustrate. ;)

    If your neighbours are Shaka and Pacal, with their enhanced Spear UUs, and you’re Egypt or Persia, you’re better off only warring against barbarians in the early game.

    If you’re playing as a civ with an early UU, plan on leveraging it for the rush; dedicate your early research to obtaining the required technology, focus on claiming any resource required to build the UU, and produce the UU almost exclusively.

    Anyway as I said, nice article.
     
  13. Sisiutil

    Sisiutil All Leader Challenger

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    I don't think those are demands that you play with an early UU--they're just tips.

    In some ways playing as a civ without an early UU is more flexible. If I play as Rome, for example, and find myself isolated, I fell pretty disappointed--in fact, I usually restart. I can't help feeling that having an early UU and not being able to leverage it to rush someone is something of a waste--or, to put it another way, not as much fun. If I play as England, on the other hand, I'll usually deal with whatever map card I'm dealt.

    You can also find yourself in a situation where you devote your early research to acquiring the tech that enables the UU, only to find that you won't get a chance to use it--and it may have been better to pursue other techs instead.

    Anyway, thanks for the compliment. :)
     
  14. UWHabs

    UWHabs Warlord

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    I know what you mean. Often I start up a game going, "Okay, alright Genghis, who can we rush with Keshiks here." and then I find no horses. Or isolated. Or I have way too much land to properly rush.

    I did play a nice game as Julius once where my second city blocked off 2/3 of the continent I was sharing with 3 other people, so I really only used Praets in defense. But most games like that, I agree, I would just quit and try something else.
     
  15. wlcang0226

    wlcang0226 Chieftain

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    thank you very much! It's very useful to me!!!
     
  16. Torrello

    Torrello Chieftain

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    Very useful and interesing article and thread - Thanks a milion.
    I started a new game, looking at my capital I thought, what a great REX sight, but after got bronze-working as 1st tech, as source off copper in my Cap's BFC!!!! :D

    A couple turns later I find that my east-ward neighbor is only Izzy :rolleyes: so I but it into action. A stack of 10 axes made light work of her. She's just gotten a 2nd city down on some copper, so only had 1-2 axes. I made pretty light work of her. So now I've 2 extra cities, one a capital site with new lovely resources, and one less very annoying neighbor.

    Game on :cool:
     
  17. GluontheFerengi

    GluontheFerengi Chieftain

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    I'm not going to bother you here about technicalities but about application.
    I tried out your early quechua rush on noble. It worked great! I managed to seize Ragnar's capital and captured his worker that had been fortified inside. I considered finding someone else without the aggressive trait, but he was the first guy I ran into and speed is the decisive element.

    I had my units on auto-promote until I read your guide. It makes a huge difference to manually manage veterans!

    I followed your advice with the copper and iron. I was ready for another war by 900 BC and I took Rameses by complete surprise. I built my road network right to his border and took one of his cities within two turns of declaring war.
    He never really recovered from this blow. Sensing his weakness, my neighbor Louis XIV also declared war.
    I took the Egyptian capital and with three super cities started heading straight for liberalism.
    I made peace with the Egyptians when they had one city left -- that is, in exchange for a half dozen technologies that were off my tech path.

    I was soon dominant in every respect. I got to drop the E(emancipation) bomb on all my hapless rivals when they were many techs behind me.
    Stopped bothering with that game soon after.

    Your early rush, sir, is a winning strategy. Thank you for your detailed guide.
     
  18. Ataxerxes

    Ataxerxes Chieftain

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    @Gluon - Below Monarch the Warrior rush is a very viable tactic. Aggressive Civs do this as well as the Quechua, but any Civ can do it. An aggressive, warlike approach works wonders, as your game shows. It's often a good tactic to leave a city as you did and then extort the techs after Alphabet, wait and kill the AI after the peace treaty wears off. The real value of the Quechua shows up at Monarch, when only Quechuas can Warrior Rush.

    It was good to get Ragnar out of the way and then go after Ramses later. Given time, Ragnar builds a lot of units but Ramses is a wimp. Ramses builds wonders for you and then doesn't defend them well.
     
  19. Dazie

    Dazie Chieftain

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    That was ME! I wondered what happened to you. <3

    :satan:
     

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