I'm simply saying there was no "war on terror" until 9/11, man we used terror to defeat the Japanese.... and no one gives a hoot, we did it cause we had to, and we'd do it again. That's why I don't even remotely buy into that we suddenly started a war to stop the "terror" tactics we practically pioneered. You don't see CNN specials about Irish terrorist being rooted out by our troops do you? Or chechen terrorists? Not unless there Muslim that is....
Fair enough, this clarifies your argument and I see what you meant now. Although I think you're simplifying things a bit too much (ie: the Basque group ETA has long been called a terrorist organization), in general you're correct about the media and the general connection people make between terrorism and Muslim perpetrators.
Thats war man, its not like british troops go out and behead afghans with swords, there collateral damage casualties, nothing more.
First of all, they are not always "collateral damage casualties." At times, people are killed because of mistakes on the part of occupying forces,
avoidable mistakes. At other times, people are killed by abuse, rape, or other despicable acts.
You have to ask yourself, how many lives lost in "collateral damage casualties" is too many? Do you value an Afghani or Iraqi life as much as you do a British or American (Christian) life? If 100-200 innocent people are dieing in Iraq and Afghanistan daily, would you be reacting the same way if they were American/Coalition soldiers or Western civilians instead? --- I doubt it immensely.
I highly doubt the iraq "refugee crisis" as you put it is anything even remotely comparable to the crisis in sudan, but thats besides the point....
Then you're simply not following the Iraq war closely enough, and that is
NOT besides the point. War and occupation have consequences, you can't simply ignore them and say that they're "besides the point."
Here is just one example of the many articles about the growing crisis.
Asia Times said:
Nowhere on Earth is there a worse refugee crisis than in Iraq today. According to the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, some 2 million Iraqis have fled their country and are now scattered across everywhere from Jordan, Syria, Turkey and Iran to London and Paris. (Almost none have made it to the United States, which has done nothing to address the refugee crisis it created.)
Another 1.9 million are estimated to be internally displaced persons, driven from their homes and neighborhoods by the US occupation and the vicious civil war it has sparked. Add those figures up - and they're getting worse by the day - and you have close to 16% of the Iraqi population uprooted. Add the dead to the displaced, and that figure rises to nearly one in five Iraqis.
I simply see the USA as having brought to the forefront a movement which has ALREADY been in the making. Terrorists and islamic insurgents don't just pop out of the ground, they come from surrounding nations, and why would those happy, healthy, peace-loving muslim liberals suddenly turn into vicious suicide terrorists, death squads, etc? Well because they have been taught since childhood to hate the west, Christianity and especially the USA as the most visible appendage, this is there chance to do what they have been wanting to do there whole lives. To openly wage war on us.
First of all, it is not disputed that the majority of the conflict going on in Iraq is internal, it's not the work of "foreign forces" as you're describing. Angry, indoctrinated people flooding in from all over the Muslim world just to get some shots off at Christians.
Many of these people are engaged in insurgency and have developed militias because the American/British policies in Iraq have not been working, and they're an occupying force.
You argue that these people have been taught since childhood to hate Christianity, and this is simply a ridiculous proposition. Why would Muslims go to all the trouble of attacking the US and the West if they want to go after Christians? 1 million Christians live in Iraq (at least... they used to, who knows how many have stayed thanks to the war and occupation.) Millions of Christians live in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and other nearby countries. Why not just make the trip there to kill a few Christians, if as argued, that's what they've been brought up to believe.
Unlike what you describe, the reality is quite different. There has been intermarriage between Christians and Muslims, and the fact that these Christian minorities (and Jewish minorities, until the creation of Israel) exist in Muslim countries almost 1400 years after the initial spread of Islam is a strong rebuke of what you're saying.
I think that would be obvious based on historical context, western christian civilization and middleast islamic civilization have been clashing in one form or another since islam became a prominent religion, sometimes the conflict has died down, at other times it has flaired up again, its never ended though. Thankfully space and mobility served to break everything up, however modern technology (especially in the communications area with the internet, and in the military are with long range missiles technology) has disturbed the original way in which this conflict tended to resolve itself more locally, it remains to be seen how all this will play out...
I agree with you that there have been ebbs and flows in the animosity and conflict between Christian and Muslim
nations/empires throughout history. I do have a problem with your second point though.
but if muslims in nations like syria and iran stay the way they are now, it won't be pretty.
What on earth do you mean? "If muslims stay the way they are now." You have to understand that, especially in Syria (and other countries, such as Egypt, Saddam's Iraq, Libya, etc.) dictatorships or one party systems are accepted and propped up by the US, as long as they serve American interests. As soon as they tug too hard on the leash though, they become demonized as long-standing enemies. You talk about the Muslims in these countries, but many people, for instance the young 20-30 somethings in Iran are (or at least were) very pro American until Bush's administration and its most recent policies. Calling Iran a member of the "Axis of Evil" certainly hasn't improved perceptions of the US among Iranians, and has just given critics of the US more to use in their arguments. Iran has a very young population. For instance, more than 25% are under 14 years old.
And I'm not demonizing the "whole" religious group, in fact I'm actually siding with one of them, the moderate muslims (like almost all who live in western nations) I consider to be a different group than the extremists, I'm simply saying that there is in the area of 1.2 billion muslims on earth today, and there numbers are currently growing fast (almost entirely through high birth rates in the developing world) now if even 1% are extremists thats still 12 million, heck even 0.1% is still the size of the whole population of my city. And I'm sure there are many more than that at this current time.
So how many hard line Christians like you do you think there are in the world? Didn't Jesus say, according to your bible, that if a person strikes you on one cheek, that you should offer them another cheek? How do you reconcile that with your comments about the need to "fight back."
I already have an understanding of islam, appreciation for any religion other than my own is a little beyond me as I see them all as false and leading men to hell, but I can still understand the concepts and why people believe as they do.
If you're a Christian, what on earth in Christianity convinces you about its Truth versus any other religion's? If you want to get an idea about some of the reasons Muslims are so convinced about their faith, take a look at this website:
Miracles of the Qur'an
For example, did you know that the words Man and Woman appear in the Qur'an 23 times each? The total of this is 46, the number of chromosomes that make up a Human's genetic code. How is it possible that without the aid of modern technology, a so-called "charlatan" like Muhammad (pbuh) could have come up with this and the countless other Signs himself?
Is there anything similar in the Bible that suggests to you its authenticity and divine nature?
If I was really going to read crazy stuff into you post I'd say you thought the 9/11 attack were used by the Islamic God to bring more people to him, Whatever...
Now that was a disturbing comment! Muslims mourned with every Christian, Atheist or other person on September 11th. Muslims have no tolerance for attacks against civilians (or suicide), and you're simply misleading yourself if you believe that genuine Islam condones such an action. You refer to God as "the Islamic God." Whether you believe it or not, Muslims are praying to the same God you have, we simply reject that Jesus is divine/God himself, and the concept of the Holy Spirit as also being a part of God.
No one is suggesting that the attacks happened because "the Islamic God" wanted to bring more people to Islam. You're just trying to see a shocking statement where none exists! What I said was, that people after having been afflicted by such a tragedy and told that a terrorist group that perverses Islam was behind it, wanted to find out more about Islam and the Qur'an. When they did start looking, they found what they believed to be God's most recent and final revelation, and so they converted. If a person isn't looking for something, it's unlikely that they'll find it.
whether some people decide they don't wanna eat pork and need to pray towards the east is nothing to me. What is something to me is when my christian brothers are persecuted, when women are abused, when children are trained to hate people they have never seen, for reasons that make no sense and when people fly airplanes into building full of people or preach open destruction of our allies (like the state of israel). Honestly the fact that islamic nations in the middle east are essentially trying to push israel off the map is enough to make them our enemies, we should defend our allies to the absolute death by whatever means necessary.
You talk about Christians and Israelis being persecuted. Why aren't you fighting for the Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians who are being persecuted? Some people don't recognize the state of Israel because no state existed before 1948. Instead, a state was carved out of Palestine, and a number of wars resulted. Israelis continue denying Palestinians political rights, annexing and colonizing their land, and killing their civilians. Are you surprised that there is some animosity towards Israelis? Have you at all followed the war in Lebanon, in which hundreds of innocent people were killed, including the bombing of a UN outpost by Israel's army despite repeated calls to stop? This killed 4 UN peace keepers.
No one is arguing that indiscriminately firing rockets, or engaging in suicide attacks against civilians is justified (or even remotely Islamic!) However, this does not forgive the countless and horrific acts committed by the Israeli government.
In Lebanon alone, the Israeli army used over 90% of their cluster bombs in the days following a ceasefire agreement, but before the ceasefire came into effect.
Read the
Human Rights Watch Article regarding this matter, and don't assume that Israel is a "bastion of Judeo-Christian" civilization in what is an otherwise barbarous and backward Muslim neighbourhood. Inform yourself on the many injustices committed by the Israelis, rather than assuming that they are perfect stewards of the "Holy Land." Read this short blurb about the
Israeli Absentee Property Law and I guarantee you'll see their actions as completely unjust. Inform yourself! Blind support of Israel is certainly not what God would want, assuming you believe that God is just.
I'm not saying all muslims are evil "terrorists" I"m not saying most are. I'm saying there are many who are, and the so called "moderates" especially over there, feel a lot more sympathetic to them than a lot of people realize.
You certainly don't seem to have an accurate enough understanding of Islam to make these claims. I will grant you one thing however. Muslims could speak out more loudly against acts of terrorism, rather than just despising them inside.
But on the other hand, Christians like yourself could speak out more loudly about the unjust policies of your Government or Israel too. I think it's something incumbent on both communities to do, and I genuinely hope you better inform yourself about why so many Arabs and Muslims dislike Israel, as well as why so many countries, even to this day, refuse to recognize its existence.
I love you too!
