The Enlightenment Era

[janboruta]

Romanticism and "romantic era" isn't really anything distinct technologically - artistically yes, with that whole Ossian and Werther nonsense. Napoleonic age was relatively short, and that reason alone wouldn't warrant its inclusion into Civ. That age would just be very late Enlightenment era, or very early Industrial. After 1830's, it is all Industrial era.

Also, the unit models we use for Enlightenment era units (Line Infantry, Skirmisher, Cuirassier) - all have the look from the Napoleonic wars, with tall pants and shakos.

Also sniped by Boris.

 

[SonofaRose]

Does the Enlightenment Era work with a custom map with a scenario setting, I don't want to change anything big, basically just a normal game with a custom TSL map and some custom city states and civs added in, all other stuff is 100% the same as a normal game - starting 4000BC. everybody has the same amount of techs available(only agriculture like normal) etc.. I thought I should ask, before starting to create my map and stuff, Thanks to whoever answers!

 

[janboruta]

There is no scenario associated strictly with Enlightenment Era. However, the maps included in Yet not Another Earth Map Pack (or at the very least four of them: Giant Earth, Huge Earth, Standard Cordiform Earth and Large Europe) are supported with true start locations by the recently released EE-themed civilizations.

 

[Pouakai]

Right, just released a new update for the Enlightenment fixing a lot of the bugs pointed out on the various threads for it. There's still a few things I've probably missed (still need to add in Zwei's Cuirassier model) but figured I'd release it as-is and get the updates out. Part of the update is including a new tech (Piracy) and reworking the prereqs to prevent the Astronomy > Armour Plating beeline along the top that used to be possible. Piracy also gives naval units the ability to get gold equal to 50% of the damage they inflict on cities, on top of all other promotions. There's a new tech tree here with the changes, and I'll update the OP shortly

 

[Kesler]

Excellent, even more of a reason to use the Buccaneers alongside all the EE civs.

 

[JFD]

Perhaps we could somehow flesh out a least one of those naval techs. Anymore wonders available for that time? Maybe extra embarked moves? I worry that the promotion will oversature the Privateer, though.

 

[Pouakai]

Haji Ali Dargah or Pu'ukohola Heiau are probably the only ones from around that time that could work as naval wonders and have been completed already, but there's also Castillo de San Pedro de la Roca on my list that was a naval fortress built in 1700, so that'd work perfectly in the time period

 

[Kesler]

Be nice if you could hire some Pirates until the Modern era. But that's whats Mercs are for

 

[LeeS]

Ouch! Looks like even more compatibility-coding and balancing for me with Era Buildings to make it work and be more balanced when Enlightenment Era is also enabled.

Even more detailed thinkery-do, looks like.

I may have to beg some help from one of the SQL codemasters on triggery-dos when I get a better idea of what I want to do to balance out Era Buildings + Enlightenment Era.

 

[Natan35]

That tech tree makes no sense. Warships with no chemistry? no gunpowder? in the Vanilla game, the names of these techs made some sense, but now?

And some techs are absolutely unnecessary. Piracy is useless*(and ruins the uniqueness of the whole pirate thing IMO) and so is exploration. Navigation and Piracy leading to armor plating is nonsense. You should really free up some space in the upper part of the tech tree.

*In its current placement. What would make sense is if that tech will allow your ships to capture defeated ships, which is basically what pirates did.

 

[janboruta]

That tech tree makes no sense.

Feel free to propose a new one then. It isn't as easy as it looks.

 

[Kesler]

That tech tree makes no sense. Warships with no chemistry? no gunpowder? in the Vanilla game, the names of these techs made some sense, but now?

And some techs are absolutely unnecessary. Piracy is useless*(and ruins the uniqueness of the whole pirate thing IMO) and so is exploration. Navigation and Piracy leading to armor plating is nonsense. You should really free up some space in the upper part of the tech tree.

*In its current placement. What would make sense is if that tech will allow your ships to capture defeated ships, which is basically what pirates did.

I have to agree, I do think it's too crowded, but it is hard to do spacing for the whole tech tree right in the middle of it.

The real problem, is that reality has to be balanced with game play. As much as I would like gunpowder to be invented before warships, it would mess up the game design. Think of it as how you can have The Internet before you've even invented computers

Personally, I think that having 3 different "Sea" techs that only have 2 unlocks each drags out the experience. Again, we return to the problem of needing another tech so that you can't just rush the Industrial Era. Perhaps make Navigation require Imperialism? It may not make the most sense, but hey, Piracy to Armour Plating is eye brow raising too

It would still be one of the quicker ways to the Industrial era, but it would slow down that progress so that you can't do a Astronomy to Armour rush.

 

[janboruta]

Perhaps make Navigation require Imperialism?

This was the first idea before Pouakai rushed off to add Piracy on his own accord. Please direct any complaints his way.

I would say Piracy as a tech is unnecessary, as it adds another piece of research and makes the era a bit too full - and I am afraid it would become a serious bottleneck, slowing the game down considerably before the Industrial era. Alas, Pouakai didn't pay heed to my concern before he added that tech - I guess it was worth checking out, but I hope he would agree to roll Piracy back into Navigation.

 

[Kesler]

This was the first idea before Pouakai rushed off to add Piracy on his own accord. Please direct any complaints his way.

I would say Piracy as a tech is unnecessary, as it adds another piece of research and makes the era a bit too full - and I am afraid it would become a serious bottleneck, slowing the game down considerably before the Industrial era. Alas, Pouakai did pay heed to my concern before he added that tech.

I would agree with you completely. Aesthetically it's too crowded, game play wise it's too much. I like Piracy, but there is no room for it, and not enough content in it to justify. Imperialism would be a better choice, simply to keep the flow going, and it helps with the balance without going overboard.

But hey, retain those Piracy ideas for that eventual Enlightenment Era Scenario...

 

[Chrisy15]

But hey, retain those Piracy ideas for that eventual Enlightenment Era Scenario...

Conquest of the New World Deluxe Deluxe, anyone?

 

[LeeS]

The only tech tree layout nit I would pick would be that I would have swapped the Positions of "Warships" and "Navigation", and I would have had Navigation retain the Frigate, and would have placed the SOTL with the Warships tech. So essentially keep the functions of the techs pretty much as you have them in the places you have them, just swap the tech names and icons.

So under my "tech tree theory" you have the nastier more powerful brute-force melee-combat Age-of-Sail "Warship " requiring specifically the "Warship" tech. The less powerful but ranged-attack Frigate is available earlier. I would also keep the Seaport with Navigation even when swapping around so that the basic layout re the top of the EE is

Navigation ___________> Warships __________> Armor Plating
		|_____> Piracy   __>__|

And the unit availabilities would be:

Frigate _________> SOTL ________________> Cruiser
	   |_____> Privateer __>__|

This also gives more seperation between the Frigate and the Cruiser, and makes building a Frigate a more viable choice to make. The SOTL still has pretty good seperation in this design between where Warships would become available and the upgrade Ironclads at Steam Power.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Possible code-bug -- did you really intend the SOTL unit to become obsolete at Electronics? This is an entire era later than when the Ironclad (to which SOTL upgrades) becomes available.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even though I intend to agree with Natan's basic sentiments from a hysterical historical point of view, I can't see any good alternatives for a redesign that aren't a massive start-over overhaul. Sure, Armor Plating should require Manufacturing or Industrialization as well as Steam Power in my opinion to make a better fit to historical sense, but this makes redesigning the whole concept and the whole tech tree necessary in my view to very little actual gameplay advantage. In the end it has to be what makes sense from a gameplay and gamebalance point of view always trumping historical accuracy. Firaxis themselves has done so multiple places in the standard tech tree. Witness thereof, Industrialization as a prerequisite to Steam Power when it ought really to be the other way around (the mines of Scotland at the time were only able to run as deep and be as productive because of the steam engines pumping out the water in the shafts and powering the air circulation systems, and the productive output of these mines were as much in my view responsible for the industrial revolution in the UK as was the adaptation of watermilling to the powering of factories)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[edit]My post was in response to #s 210/211-ish but got ninja'd be several intermediary posts that occured while I was thinking, writing, previewing, fact and code-checking

 

[janboruta]

This also gives more seperation between the Frigate and the Cruiser, and makes building a Frigate a more viable choice to make.

But the Frigate already is in the place you describe, so the separation would not change at all.

I agree with you on the notion that "Warships" and "Navigation" should be swapped, with their ships locked in place, and Seaport being pushed to the earlier tech.

Possible code-bug -- did you really intend the SOTL unit to become obsolete at Electronics?

There are still a few oversights and missing obsolesence techs, thanks for pointing it out!

 

[LeeS]

But the Frigate already is in the place you describe, so the separation would not change at all.

Yes, my bad. I forgot you had an update to make Frigates unlock at Warships instead of the standard Navigation, which led to the confused statements on my part.

But otherwise I'd still suggest to swap the tech-names and icons because to me the warships icon is more evocative of the sort of nasty yardarm-to-yardarm sort of battles the SOTL was designed to engage in.

 

[Eveljin]

So I played a test game 3 ai lost their capital and I wondered: Why is no one denouncing anyone? Noticed that for some reason warmonger penalty is no longer in the game. Tested turn off The Enlightenment Era and then it came back. Could it be a bug?

 

[janboruta]

I did not have such an issue before. I'll get a new game going to check what happens.