The erasing of Iraq

[Ecofarm]

You are 1000% wrong and every individual in that area was selected by American troops to help bring down the statue and to "celebrate".

How rediculas can a point/statement be? See above.

Source? Please, for our entertainment, provide a source. I don't care if it's AlJeezera.com - just something.

 

[Mandeville]

How rediculas can a point/statement be? See above.

Source? Please, for our entertainment, provide a source. I don't care if it's AlJeezera.com - just something.

sorry thought it was common knowledge. just search for like saddam and statue on google. or you can go here: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion?bid=15&pid=185455

 

[Che Guava]

Complete nonsense. If we don't have physical objects then the culture becomes Iron age myths and traditions? Culture IS myths and traditions.

True, but physical manifestations can be equally important. The destruction of the Temple Mount, for eg, would be a huge blow to the 'cultural capital' of Israel. Sure, no one is going to forget about Abraham, King David, or its significance to Judaism if it were gone, but it wouldn't be quite the same if the site was occupied by a minimall instead...

Occam's razor - If they protected the oil ministry, then that must mean...They wanted to re-build Iraq and mold it into their shape by destroying it's culture, or, they wanted to protect oil production

One might also interpret it as "They don't value Iraq's cultural sites and artifacts as much as they do oil production". Not cultural destruction by design, just by practice.

 

[Ecofarm]

sorry thought it was common knowledge. just search for like saddam and statue on google. or you can go here: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion?bid=15&pid=185455

First of all, your source mentions NOTHING of any "administration" by the US or "handpicking" anyone. It just says that the celebration was smaller than depicted by the media. I suppose CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, MSNBC, BBC, Fox, and every other major news organization that covered the event was also part of the conspiracy?

Secondly, IT IS A BLOG.

Some conspiracy theorist with a blog = common knowledge?

Thanks for the source, I knew it would be a hoot.

 

[Che Guava]

Ok Ecofarm, you can now have your way with this one

 

[Ecofarm]

Ok Ecofarm, you can now have your way with this one

Firstly, no source cited by the reporter. Just a mysterious "internal army study". No link, no naming of the report, no naming of anyone quoted in the report, no naming of anyone who contributed to the report, no naming of where the report came from, nothing. The only semblance of credibility comes from a link to the LA Times (which does not work).

Secondly,

The NewStandard ceased publication April 27, 2007

I wonder why.

If you would seriously consider that link to be a credible source, well... Let's just say that I doubt very much that you do.


NEXT!

 

[innonimatu]

NEXT!

Did someone call? I was just starting to write my CFC history rewriter list:
Luiz
Merkinball
and now, Ecofarm

They will keep denying, or simply ignore, all evidence, and never concede a point, no matter how throughly discredited they are.

Just to see how further ridiculous can this get..

Watch those iraqis bringing down the statue, the "thousands of iraquis" Blair spoke about... except those doing all the work seem to be wearing US military uniforms. I'm sure it was just the result of some sudden bout of compassion that made american soldiers offer their uniforms to the "liberated" iraqis.
They´re iraqis, they really are!

BBC, 10 April 2003

Marines say that the US flag draped over Saddam Hussein's statue was the flag that was flying over the Pentagon on 11 September 2001.

A marine who happened to drop by just had it in his pocket...
Someone didn't read the script!

A copy of the text in the report quoted on the LA Times piece:

We woke up that morning [of 9 April] in the Iraqi Special Forces training compound on the outskirts of southern Baghdad. Attached to 3rd Battalion, 4th Marine Regiment (of I MEF), who were conducting a clearing operation on the southern approach to Baghdad, [we were] moving with their TAC at the time. We were kept in a centralized location while moving so that we could be flexed to where we might be needed. We were not sure what we were going to hit, but we were expecting a lot of resistance. The infantry unit was to be clearing door to door, while we would be broadcasting civilian noninterference messages and occasional surrender appeals when pockets of enemy forces were located. The infantry unit started its operation but was encountering no resistance at all. After a few hours of going door to door, kicking doors and entering, looking for enemy concentrations and weapons caches but finding none, they modified their plan and formed up into a column and started a general movement toward Al-Firdos (paradise) Square in [eastern] Baghdad, where the Palestine Hotel and statue [of Saddam Hussein] were located. The entire movement went a lot faster than anyone had anticipated....

Crowds of Iraqi citizens started coming out and cheering the American convoy. We started to do some PSYOP broadcasts about bringing about a free Iraq, but knowing that we were to continue some clearing operations; we were telling them to stay away from our military vehicles for their own safety. We eventually dismounted from our vehicle and continued to inform the civilians to stay back from the military vehicles. The Iraqi civilians were very receptive to us, and [we] continued to engage them with our interpreter.

As we approached the street leading into the Al-Firdos Square, we could tell that there was a very large crowd of civilians starting to form up. It looked like the infantry unit up there could use some support, so we moved our [tactical PSYOP team] TPT vehicle forward and started to run around seeing what they needed us to do to facilitate their mission.... There was a large media circus at this location (I guess the Palestine Hotel was a media center at the time), almost as many reporters as there were Iraqis, as the hotel was right adjacent to the Al-Firdos Square.

The Marine Corps colonel in the area saw the Saddam statue as a target of opportunity and decided that the statue must come down. Since we were right there, we chimed in with some loudspeaker support to let the Iraqis know what it was we were attempting to do. The reporters were completely surrounding the vehicle, and we started having to ask the reporters to move out of the way, but they would not move. We were getting frustrated, but we were also laughing about it. We dismounted the vehicle again and just started pushing the people out of the way. They were starting to really inhibit our ability to conduct our mission. The tanks . . . formed up into a perimeter around the square, with the statue in the middle.

An M88 recovery vehicle approached the statue and continued to drive up the steps right next to the statue in an attempt to bring it down. The people had already tied a noose around the neck of the statue with some rope. They were trying to just tug on it and bring it down and were hitting it with sledgehammers; it was clearly getting crazy in the square. We were no longer in crowd control, as there was just no controlling this crowd at this time. We decided to just ride along with the crowd, and we started just kind of celebrating with the Iraqi people. We actually had to have our interpreter record an ad-hoc broadcast message, informing the Iraqi people that if they did not stand back from the statue, American forces would not bring the statue down. We were afraid that some civilians would get hurt if they were too close or in the wrong spot.

All of this activity was going on within just a few blocks of where other marines were battling with snipers in a building across from the Palestine Hotel. The local Iraqi people just did not care for their well being at this point; they just wanted to see the statue come down...We looked over and now there was an American flag draped over the face of the statue. God bless them, but we were thinking from PSYOP school that this was just bad news. We didn't want to look like an occupation force, and some of the Iraqis were saying, `No, we want an Iraqi flag!' So I said `No problem, somebody get me an Iraqi flag.' I am not sure where it came from, but one of the Iraqis brought us the old Iraqi flag without the writing on it (added by Saddam). We got that as fast as we could and started running that up to the statue. At this time, the marines had put a chain from the boom of the recovery vehicle around the neck of the statue, and they just ran the [Iraqi] flag up the statue. It was real quick thinking on Staff Sergeant

Plesich's part to get that Iraqi flag up there quick. But by the time the Iraqi flag got put on the statue, there had already been a lot of photos taken with the marine covering the statue with the American flag.

Somehow along the way, somebody had gotten the idea to put a bunch of Iraqi kids onto the wrecker that was to pull the statue down. While the wrecker was pulling the statue down, there were Iraqi children crawling all over it. Finally they brought the statue down, but we expected this big statue to come crashing down, to shatter or whatever, but it just slowly bent over and slid off the mounting pipes. Once the statue was on the ground, it was attacked by Iraqis with the sledgehammers and broken apart. The head of the statue was dragged through the streets, with people hitting the face with their shoes and spitting on it. After the statue was down, we started to receive a lot of intelligence on where Ba'ath Party personnel were staying and just generally got a lot of real good intelligence for use in later direct-action missions. All this information was developed with and through the human exploitation teams, which had assigned interpreters.

Aa for the source of this: http://call.army.mil/products/on-point/ch-6.asp
(no longer available, obtainable through several other sites,perhaps direct request, or just buy it).
Search for Toppling the Statue--Army PSYOP Supports I MEF, by Staff Sergeant Brian Plesich, team leader, Tactical Psychological Operations Team 1153, 305th Psychological Operations Company, interview by Lieutenant Colonel Dennis Cahill, 31 May 2003.

Just because the Iraqis needed an American tank to help them pull the statue down does not = US administered. It was no more US administered than the trial and execution of Saddam.

Hey, I actually agree with you on something! I just hope you don't do a flip-flop on this, if you do come to admit that the US military staged the toppling of the statue.

 

[Ecofarm]

The people had already tied a noose around the neck of the statue with some rope. They were trying to just tug on it and bring it down and were hitting it with sledgehammers; it was clearly getting crazy in the square. We were no longer in crowd control, as there was just no controlling this crowd at this time. We decided to just ride along with the crowd, and we started just kind of celebrating with the Iraqi people. We actually had to have our interpreter record an ad-hoc broadcast message, informing the Iraqi people that if they did not stand back from the statue, American forces would not bring the statue down. We were afraid that some civilians would get hurt if they were too close or in the wrong spot.

All of this activity was going on within just a few blocks of where other marines were battling with snipers in a building across from the Palestine Hotel. The local Iraqi people just did not care for their well being at this point; they just wanted to see the statue come down...

From your link. Sounds like a spontaneous civilian event to me. The decision by the US military to assist in the toppling of the statue CLEARY occured after civilians were attempting to do so.

There is other evidence that it was, in fact, a genuine show of support by the Iraqi people:

Once the statue was on the ground, it was attacked by Iraqis with the sledgehammers and broken apart. The head of the statue was dragged through the streets, with people hitting the face with their shoes and spitting on it. After the statue was down, we started to receive a lot of intelligence on where Ba'ath Party personnel were staying and just generally got a lot of real good intelligence for use in later direct-action missions.

Again, your link...

Just because they let some kids ride on the tank does not =

You are 1000% wrong and every individual in that area was selected by American troops to help bring down the statue and to "celebrate". Not to mention there weren't many Iraqis there anyways.

 

[Atlas14]

Hey, I actually agree with you on something! I just hope you don't do a flip-flop on this, if you do come to admit that the US military staged the toppling of the statue.

I don't know if someone has already posted the picture in this thread, but my sister was showed the whole photo of the toppling of the statue in her history class, and it was clear that it was staged. There were only a handful of Iraqis, as opposed to a plethora as the staged photo makes it out to be. And the US tanks and vehicles were encircled around the statue.

Simply put, it was staged.

 

[Che Guava]

Hesitated to put this up, just because the half-arsed quality here makes it look like pure hack n'et 'journalism' (and hey, it probably is) but take what you will from it:

 

[Ecofarm]

Just because it was not the equivelant of the Berlin wall does not make it staged. Do you REALLY expect 1000s of people to be hanging out in the town square DURING AN INVASION?

Exactly what are we supposed to assume from the photo of that guy with his mouth open holding up 1 finger on one hand, and 2 on the other? Are we supposed to assume that he is shouting obscenities just because he is shouting (note - it was probably pretty loud there and he probably needed to shout to expect to be heard by someone right next to him)? I see no reason to assume this to be the case. I do not see how the photo collage means anything.


Care to cite that source, Che?

ps. Sounds like someone's sister was the victim of a typical left-wing educator abusing their position of authority by conferring that authority to an ability to declare what is truth and reality.


Could we please have a source other than an (uncited) photo showing that not many people were there (and sporting assumptions in the caption)? The number of people proves nothing, and the source cited earlier clearly showed that the event was the idea of the Iraqi people (who were merely assisted by the US government).

 

[Che Guava]

Just because it was not the equivelant of the Berlin wall does not make it staged.

No, telling people that thousands came out, when only hundreds did, and flying in militia members from other parts of Iraq makes it staged...

 

[Laurencius]

The Guardian is such a wholesome balanced publication.

The Guardian must be doing a relatively good job, because more than a few leftists sometimes think they are skewed to the right. You never hear a rightwinger accuse Fox News that they are biased to the left.

 

[Ecofarm]

No, telling people that thousands came out, when only hundreds did, and flying in militia members from other parts of Iraq makes it staged...

Telling people it was thousands when it was hundreds = staged? I don't think so. This may be evidence of ad-hoc propoganda, but it has no bearing on the original event. If there are 2 people in the street, and I tell you there is 5, do the 2 cease to exist? Is my telling you there are 5 evidence that I staged the thing in the first place? What kind of logic is this?

Flying in militia members? This was probably so they would feel that they would be a part of the new government; thus, to help secure American support from them. A PR move, sure, but I doubt that the purpose of flying in a couple big-wigs qualifies as "handpicking a crowd of people". Unless hundreds of people were flown in... A couple people does not make a crowd.

 

[Ecofarm]

The Guardian must be doing a relatively good job, because more than a few leftists sometimes think they are skewed to the right. You never hear a rightwinger accuse Fox News that they are biased to the left.

Just because some hardcore communists think that the Guardian is right-leaning makes it a quality publication? The Guardian is left-wing toilet paper. Michael Savage (a conservative talk show host) points out the left-leaning programming on Fox - his show airs from 5pm-9pm (est.), 5 days a week. Anytime you want to hear a conservative criticising Fox as leftish, tune in. Additionally, there are many other conservatives that criticize Fox as left-leaning on several occasions. Would you like a list of them? If you pay me, I'll even compile it with sources cited. Would 1000 criticisms of Fox as left-leaning by conservative extremists suffice?

I hope the laughy face is meant as: "just kidding, I realize this logic has no base in reality".

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Yawn. From The Guardian article on Wikipedia:

It has been awarded the National Newspaper of the Year in 1999 and 2006 by the British Press Awards, as well as being co-winner of the World's Best-designed Newspaper as awarded by the Society for News Design (2006). The Guardian Unlimited website won the Best Newspaper category two years running in the 2005 and 2006 Webby Awards, beating (in 2005) the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal and Variety[4]. It has been the winner for six years in a row of the British Press Awards for Best Electronic Daily Newspaper.[5] The site won an Eppy award from the US-based magazine Editor & Publisher in 2000 for the best-designed newspaper online service [6]. The website is known for its commentary on sporting events, particularly its over-by-over cricket commentary.

In 2007 it was ranked first in a study on transparency which analysed 25 mainstream English-language media vehicles, and which was conducted by the prestigious International Center for Media and the Public Agenda of the University of Maryland. It got a nearly perfect score.

 

[Atlas14]

Just because it was not the equivelant of the Berlin wall does not make it staged. Do you REALLY expect 1000s of people to be hanging out in the town square DURING AN INVASION?

Obviously a few of your Iraqi friends didn't seem to think it was such a bad idea, aka ~150 of them...

 

[Ecofarm]

Yawn. From The Guardian article on Wikipedia:

It has been awarded the National Newspaper of the Year in 1999 and 2006 by the British Press Awards, as well as being co-winner of the World's Best-designed Newspaper as awarded by the Society for News Design (2006). The Guardian Unlimited website won the Best Newspaper category two years running in the 2005 and 2006 Webby Awards, beating (in 2005) the New York Times, the Washington Post, the Wall Street Journal and Variety[4]. It has been the winner for six years in a row of the British Press Awards for Best Electronic Daily Newspaper.[5] The site won an Eppy award from the US-based magazine Editor & Publisher in 2000 for the best-designed newspaper online service [6]. The website is known for its commentary on sporting events, particularly its over-by-over cricket commentary.

In 2007 it was ranked first in a study on transparency which analysed 25 mainstream English-language media vehicles, and which was conducted by the prestigious International Center for Media and the Public Agenda of the University of Maryland. It got a nearly perfect score.

The British Press Awards:

A financially lucrative part of the Press Gazette's business[1], they have been described as "the Oscars of British journalism", or less flatteringly, "The Hackademy Awards".[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Press_Awards

The Society for News Design:

In 2002, SND moved from Providence to North Kingston, R.I and it currently has three full-time employees; an Executive Director, Dave Gray, a Membership Assistant, Susan Santoro, and a General Assistant, Elena Peterson.

http://www.snd.org/about/history.html#

The Webby Awards:

The Academy is an intellectually diverse organization that includes members such as musicians Beck and David Bowie, Internet inventor Vint Cerf, political columnist Arianna Huffington, Real Networks CEO Rob Glaser, "The Simpsons" creator Matt Groening, R/GA Founder and Chairman Robert Greenberg, Virgin Atlantic Chairman and Founder Richard Branson, and The Weinstein Company Co-Founder Harvey Weinstein.

Winners are chosen by The International Academy of Digital Arts and Sciences (IADAS), a global organization of industry experts and technology innovaters, such as David Bowie, Harvey Weinstein, Matt Groening, Jamie Oliver, Internet co-inventor Vinton Cerf, RealNetworks CEO Rob Glaser, R/GA CEO Bob Greenberg, and Crispin Porter + Bogusky Partner and Chief Creative Officer Alex Bogusky.

Recognition by the Webby Award puts you in the esteemed group of industry leaders such as Amazon.com, eBay, Yahoo!, iTunes, Google, FedEx, BBC News, CNN, MSNBC, The New York Times, NPR, Salon Magazine, Evite, Meetup, Wikipedia, Flickr, ESPN, Comedy Central, PBS, and The Onion.

http://www.webbyawards.com/about/webbyfact.php

An Eppy Award:

The awards are cosponsored by E&P and Mediaweek magazines.
The complete list of 2007 EPpy Award winners is as follows:

Spoiler :

2007 EPpy Winners

Best Newspaper-Affiliated Web Site with more than 1 million unique monthly visitors
NYTimes.com

Best Newspaper-Affiliated Web Site with fewer than 1 million unique monthly visitors
BoomerGirl.com (The World Company)

Best Weekly Newspaper-Affiliated Web Site
WickedLocalPlymouth.com

Best Spanish-Language Newspaper Web Site
ELPAIS.com

Best Network TV/Cable-Affiliated Web Site
ESPN.com

Best Local TV/Cable-Affiliated Web Site
TV3 - Televisió de Catalunya

Best National Magazine-Affiliated Web Site
FastCompany.com

Best News Web Site with more than 1 million unique monthly visitors
BBC News

Best News Web Site with fewer than 1 million unique monthly visitors
asap (The Associated Press)

Best Media-Affiliated News Blog
The Swamp (chicagotribune.com)

Best Sports Web Site with more than 1 million unique monthly visitors
ESPN.com

Best Sports Web Site with fewer than 1 million unique monthly visitors
Kusports.com (The Lawrence Journal-World)

Best Media-Affiliated Sports Blog
Seahawks Insider (The Tacoma News Tribune)

Best Business Web Site with more than 1 million unique monthly visitors
MarketWatch.com (CBS)

Best Business Web Site with fewer than 1 million unique monthly visitors
ChicagoBusiness.com

Best Media-Affiliated Business Blog
FT Alphaville

Best Entertainment Web Site with more than 1 million unique monthly visitors
Life Section, usatoday.com

Best Entertainment Web Site with fewer than 1 million unique monthly visitors
EP3.es (Madrid)

Best Media-Affiliated Entertainment Blog
Stuck in the ‘80s (TampaBay.com)

Best Special Feature in a Web Site - News or Event, more than 1 million unique monthly visitors
TIE: A People Torn (StarTribune.com) & House of Lies (MiamiHerald.com)

Best Special Feature in a Web Site - News or Event, fewer than 1 million unique monthly visitors
Kyrgyzstan Revolution Revisited (EurasiaNet)

Best Special Feature in a Web Site - Enterprise, more than 1 million unique monthly visitors
The Weight (sacbee.com, The Sacramento Bee)

Best Special Feature in a Web Site - Enterprise, fewer than 1 million unique monthly visitors
Unrighteous Traffick: Rhode Island's slave history (projo.com, The Providence Journal)


Best Community Web Site with more than 1 million unique monthly visitors
HorseCity.com

Best Community Web Site with fewer than 1 million unique monthly visitors
IndyMoms.com (The Indianapolis Star)

Best Design of a Media-Affiliated Web Site with more than 1 million unique monthly visitors
washingtonpost.com

Best Design of a Media-Affiliated Web Site with less than 1 million unique monthly visitors
BNET, the go-to place for management

Best Use of Video in a Web Site with more than 1 million unique monthly visitors
CNN.com

Best Use of Video in a Web Site with fewer than 1 million unique monthly visitors
TIE: AppealTV.com (The Commercial Appeal) & Studio 55 (naplesnews.com, Naples Daily News)

Best Classified Web Site with more than 1 million unique monthly visitors
DallasNews.com

Best Classified Web Site with fewer than 1 million unique monthly visitors
Nwjobs.com

Best College Newspaper Internet Service
Indiana Daily Student at idsnews.com

The Inaugural Knight News Innovation Award
Public Insight Journalism (Center for Innovation in Journalism @ American Public Media)

International Center for Media and the Public Agenda of the University of Maryland:

The study used five categories to evaluate the news outlets:
Corrections: Willingness to openly correct mistakes.
Ownership: Openness about corporate ownership.
Staff Policies: Openness about conflicts of interest.
Reporting Policies: Openness about editorial guidelines.
Interactivity: Openness to reader comments and criticism.

http://www.icmpa.umd.edu/pages/studies/transparency/main.html

Basically, whoever trashes their right to privacy the most, wins.


Not impressed.

I think my Weeblo badge from Cub Scouts carries more weight than any of the "awards" achieved by the Guardian. Yawn.

 

[Ecofarm]

Obviously a few of your Iraqi friends didn't seem to think it was such a bad idea, aka ~150 of them...

I'm aware that a few Iraqis seemed to think that such behavior was reasonable. You did not answer my question: Is it reasonable to expect 1000s of people to be hanging out in the town square during an active invasion?

Let's take it a step further:

If there are not 1000s of people hanging out in the town square during an active invasion, does this mean that the US staged any events that took place? If yes, could you please explain the HUGE leap of logic in comming to that conclusion.

So far, we have:

1. A couple militia leaders were made to feel important during the event, by bringing them to it (supposedly).

2. Some kids were allowed to ride on a tank.

Given the evidence quoted above, from a Sergeant at the scene: that the event was inniated by Iraqis who requested help from the US, I do not see a conspiracy here. I see an inflated account of the event. But I do not see the US "handpicking" every person there. Nor do I see the event as being inniated by the US.


So far, I'm not seeing a US orchastrated event.

 

[Atlas14]

I'm aware that a few Iraqis seemed to think that such behavior was reasonable. You did not answer my question: Is it reasonable to expect 1000s of people to be hanging out in the town square during an active invasion?

Let's take it a step further:

If there are not 1000s of people hanging out in the town square during an active invasion, does this mean that the US staged any events that took place? If yes, could you please explain the HUGE leap of logic in comming to that conclusion.

So far, we have:

1. A couple militia leaders were made to feel important during the event, by bringing them to it (supposedly).

2. Some kids were allowed to ride on a tank.

Given the evidence quoted above, from a Sergeant at the scene: that the event was inniated by Iraqis who requested help from the US, I do not see a conspiracy here. I see an inflated account of the event. But I do not see the US "handpicking" every person there. Nor do I see the event as being inniated by the US.


So far, I'm not seeing a US orchastrated event.

Well my timeline history knowledge of the Iraq invasion sucks, but I thought that the invasion was already complete by then? I'm not sure though.