The Fate of the Moroi

[Kael]

Theres alot of vampire nerfing happening already why caps? Just lop off something extra and call it a day. Im opposed to caps on regular vampires. Booooooo!

This isnt a nerf. The Moroi never used to be able to upgrade to vampires. Since that ability was added it has opened up an exploit (you can created a non-religious unit with access to every religions spells).

So the question is do we want to keep the ability to upgrade or shut down the bruning blood ability (which is what causes the exploit).

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

I always found it cool that vampires were not replacements for existing units but something special you get on a other path. They can give vampirism to all other high level units anyway and become insanly powerful through feasting. So it isn't really necesarry to have weaker units to upgrade to them because they will catch up to regular upgraded tier 3 units promotion wise pretty quickly.

 

[tyrantpimp]

@Qes
I see more powerful more rare, OK maybe, might work. But heres something that could be addressed first. Calabim raising a city, should give xp bonuses to vamps involved and maybe yield a bloodpet or 2. Similiar to when slavers raise a city, givem no gold though. Thats something i would like to see asap.

 

[Halancar]

I suppose it is too late to change Burning Blood to a sorcery spell and change the lvl 2 Body sorcery spell (isn't it regen ?) to a Divine spell ? Vampire have sorcery anyway,so the upgrade would be seemless.

 

[tyrantpimp]

Ok if its an exploit take away the burning blood but give them something else instead. Takes a long time to get to vampires for me usually nice to have something inbetween.

 

[eerr]

Because the way the engine works the units is created, OnUnitCreated runs, and then the merge takes place. So I could remove the promotion in OnUnitCreated but it gets put right back on.

Of course I could make an SDK change to handle this, but then again just about anything could be specifically addressed in the SDK and I typically dont like to exception handle in the SDK.

make burning blood a uniqe ability for moroii and change the body spell to something i might actually use...

 

[Frozen-Vomit]

I see more powerful more rare, OK maybe, might work. But heres something that could be addressed first. Calabim raising a city, should give xp bonuses to vamps involved and maybe yield a bloodpet or 2. Similiar to when slavers raise a city, givem no gold though. Thats something i would like to see asap.

That would remove the only penalty that feasting has at the moment...

 

[tyrantpimp]

Not really if your going to raze a city arent the people going to get killed anyway? So if your killing people why not gobble down a few. Annoying to have to keep a city just to feast on people sometimes. Your penalty? No city for you.

 

[QES]

make burning blood a uniqe ability for moroii and change the body spell to something i might actually use...

I tend to agree with this. Anything that gets burning blood with the exception of the moroi, is a unit i never want casting that spell. Body should be an enhancement, even if temporary, but making it kill the unit...eh, its just never worth it, id rather eventually have a higher level unit.

Check: I suppose it might be useful in very dire and desperate messures, but is burning blood only for use then? I am very careful not to run INTO dire and desperate messure moments. And when i do, concequences should be natural.

I advocate for a new body spell. Perhaps Something like:
Ignore Pain: For the first three rounds of combat, each side takes damage (no such thing as a "winner" for the combat round, both sides loose) OR, on losing a combat round both sides take damage (Note: first strike rounds would be exempted from this)

-Qes

 

[tyrantpimp]

I forget how burning blood works when a caster is using it, he can only use it on himself or other units? Might be useful if you can cast it on others.

 

[tyrantpimp]

come to think of it, thats the other reason i havent played calabim in a while. I play one city challenge alot theres no benefit to city razing, which is default action for occ.

 

[Kael]

Okay, I take back what I said and I will go with the recommendations here. I changed Burning Blood to a targetable spell (so a caster can cast it on any living allied unit in his stack). Then I created a new Burning Blood (self) spell that only targets the caster and assigned it to the Moroi only.

 

[QES]

I still think Loki's Idea of Segregation amung Calabim units is a good idea. But im glad there was an easy(ish) fix for ya.
-Qes

EDIT: It might be important to note that in documentation. That moroi cast it on themselves, but the normal use of the spell is to cast on others. Lest some people neglect to cast it out of fear of losing their casters.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

Good, I'm satisfied.

I need to play more Calabim. They have a fun war mechanic. Maybe I'll follow the Order.

 

[loki1232]

Okay, more fleshed out ideas on how the vampires will work.
The idea is to show a segregated society, with vampires ruling masses of thrulls.

The first melee unit is the bloodpet. Warrior replacement, starts with the thrull promotion.
Thrull promotion: Can be eaten to restore ability to attack and one movement point. Cannot become a vampire.

These upgrade to moroi. Axeman replacement, starts with thrull, can cast burning blood itself (preferably with only 25% chance of dying).

Now the line splits between the thrull units and the vampiric units.
Moroi can upgrade to Guard Thrull, a pikeman style thrull which start's with the "blood guard" promotion.
Bloodguard: unit gets +25% strength when defending a stack with a vampire in it. Automatically defends before any vampires.
Moroi at level 4 can upgrade to Brujah, a maceman replacement. However, this unit loses the thrull promotion (and doesn't start with it), so it can become a vampire but doesn't give extra eating bonuses.
Moroi at level 8 (quite high) can upgrade directly to vampires, at which point it loses the thrull promotion (duh).

Each of these only has one possible upgrade.
Guardthrulls upgrade to Calabim Sheildwall. It is a bloodguard thrull, but also starts with defender (just making it obvious). However, if upgraded from a moroi, then it would be able to burningblood itself. Burning blood temporarily deactivates defender.
Brujah's at level 8 upgrade to Aeron's Chosen, a berserker replacement. Not a thrull, and has the "Vampiric chosen" promotion. (do this without a promotion if possible).
Vampiric Chosen: When this unit dies it has a 4x% chance to be reborn as a vampire (keeps promotions and level, is born at half HP in capital). x is the unit's level.

The vampire and vampire lord (limit of 1 per governor's mansion perhaps?) are included as is.

 

[QES]

Okay, more fleshed out ideas on how the vampires will work.
The idea is to show a segregated society, with vampires ruling masses of thrulls.

The first melee unit is the bloodpet. Warrior replacement, starts with the thrull promotion.
Thrull promotion: Can be eaten to restore ability to attack and one movement point. Cannot become a vampire.

These upgrade to moroi. Axeman replacement, starts with thrull, can cast burning blood itself (preferably with only 25% chance of dying).

Now the line splits between the thrull units and the vampiric units.
Moroi can upgrade to Guard Thrull, a pikeman style thrull which start's with the "blood guard" promotion.
Bloodguard: unit gets +25% strength when defending a stack with a vampire in it. Automatically defends before any vampires.
Moroi at level 4 can upgrade to Brujah, a maceman replacement. However, this unit loses the thrull promotion (and doesn't start with it), so it can become a vampire but doesn't give extra eating bonuses.
Moroi at level 8 (quite high) can upgrade directly to vampires, at which point it loses the thrull promotion (duh).

Each of these only has one possible upgrade.
Guardthrulls upgrade to Calabim Sheildwall. It is a bloodguard thrull, but also starts with defender (just making it obvious). However, if upgraded from a moroi, then it would be able to burningblood itself. Burning blood temporarily deactivates defender.
Brujah's at level 8 upgrade to Aeron's Chosen, a berserker replacement. Not a thrull, and has the "Vampiric chosen" promotion. (do this without a promotion if possible).
Vampiric Chosen: When this unit dies it has a 4x% chance to be reborn as a vampire (keeps promotions and level, is born at half HP in capital). x is the unit's level.

The vampire and vampire lord (limit of 1 per governor's mansion perhaps?) are included as is.

This all sounds cool, but ive a few querries.

One, an asthetic thing. Could we call it Aeron's Gifted? Chosen sounds so...well prophetic and in sort of a "goody-two-shoes" sort of way. Maybe Aeron's Damned? Something more dark and sinister please.

Two I really like the upgrading abilites, but what of those of us whod rather sit in our coffins and let the enemies come to us? Were not oft going to have very high level units. Can we actively produce (apart from vampire lord) all of those units? If so, very cool and im with you.

Three, What sort of bonuses to normal units get from having vampire in their spaces? As vampire are rare - and less likely to get their personal hands dirty, could they provide buffs/bonii to thrull units in the same tile? That would make them useful to bring along, even if not directly use.

Four, Exactly how powerful are vampires currently in comparison to other units of their era, and should they be more powerful than the average, with a limit on number? I think that 3 takes care of this, but in case 3 is too much what else could be offered?
-Qes

 

[loki1232]

This all sounds cool, but ive a few querries.

One, an asthetic thing. Could we call it Aeron's Gifted? Chosen sounds so...well prophetic and in sort of a "goody-two-shoes" sort of way. Maybe Aeron's Damned? Something more dark and sinister please.

Two I really like the upgrading abilites, but what of those of us whod rather sit in our coffins and let the enemies come to us? Were not oft going to have very high level units. Can we actively produce (apart from vampire lord) all of those units? If so, very cool and im with you.

Three, What sort of bonuses to normal units get from having vampire in their spaces? As vampire are rare - and less likely to get their personal hands dirty, could they provide buffs/bonii to thrull units in the same tile? That would make them useful to bring along, even if not directly use.

Four, Exactly how powerful are vampires currently in comparison to other units of their era, and should they be more powerful than the average, with a limit on number? I think that 3 takes care of this, but in case 3 is too much what else could be offered?
-Qes

1. Okay, if you want. I was just thinking that they would be among those chosen by the Vampires.

2. Yes. You just can't upgrade your already existing units to the next unit unless they're at high enough level.

3. I like it the way it is, where ordinary units get nothing from vampires, but vampires get a lot from having plenty of ordinary units in their stack for eating. The only thing is that the late game thrull units get a bonus when defending vampies.
Perhaps thrulls could automatically gain the morale promotion if they are in a square with a vampire.
Or maybe an even more intesting vampire lord mechanic, which is that when they are in a square all of the thrulls in it get the combat 1-5 promotions in the same way that Barnaxus gives promotions.

4. I think vampires are a little too powerful at the moment. The way I'd do it is restrict their number based on your cities. 1 vampire for each city, and one vampire lord for each city with a governer's mansion. Their strngth is pretty average, but their feed ability makes them highly powerful.

 

[Grey Fox]

As long as Moroi's can gain Vampirism I'm ok with them not upgrading. (I think its better to have few high leveled vampires + some vampires with level 4-6, and a bulk of moroi's anyways)

 

[Unser Giftzwerg]

I tend to agree with this. Anything that gets burning blood with the exception of the moroi, is a unit i never want casting that spell. Body should be an enhancement, even if temporary, but making it kill the unit...eh, its just never worth it, id rather eventually have a higher level unit.

Check: I suppose it might be useful in very dire and desperate messures, but is burning blood only for use then? I am very careful not to run INTO dire and desperate messure moments. And when i do, concequences should be natural.

I advocate for a new body spell. Perhaps Something like:
Ignore Pain: For the first three rounds of combat, each side takes damage (no such thing as a "winner" for the combat round, both sides loose) OR, on losing a combat round both sides take damage (Note: first strike rounds would be exempted from this)

-Qes

Memory is shaky here...I played my first game of Ver II as Amurites and teir Civ here has the ability to trainBody to other units. So ... I believe ... you can train say a Maceman with Burning Blood, pat him on the rump, and off he goes. Doesn't even need return fare.

See the movie Enemy at the Gates for a fine recreation of the Soviet version of this spell. "The man without the rifle follows the man with the rifle. When then man with the rifle is killed, the man without the rifle picks it up. The man without...." When, not if, fan-tas-tick. Anyone want a free rifle?

Okay, I take back what I said and I will go with the recommendations here. I changed Burning Blood to a targetable spell (so a caster can cast it on any living allied unit in his stack). Then I created a new Burning Blood (self) spell that only targets the caster and assigned it to the Moroi only.

I should learn to read these things last page first and working backwards.

 

[Vilnon]

Maintain the Upgrade path. Removing the ability to upgrade Moroi in effect undoes the previous patch that made Vampires replace Macemen. If you are going to remove the Moroi upgrade you may as well put Macemen back in so those units can go somewhere and put Vampires back as an extra units.

From a design perspective, what's the goal of the Moroi. They replace Axemen, but without Burning Blood are exactly the same. Since there's general good reason to pursue a Civs unique untis because they are better than average, and what does the newly reduced Moroi offer? The lvl 4 Vampirism pormotion is 'neat' with Brujah and Immortal to upgrade your vamps to, there's not much incentive to do a Moroi->Pikemen upgrade path over the Vampire->Brujah. A unit ability similiar to the enraged promortion would be an option, but honestly would be too powerful or two small to make a real differance. Perhaps the Feed ability as a standalone ability (the ability to eat Bloodpets for healing a extra attacks). It would be Vampire themed, wouldn't require new coding, yet still provide an advantage over a standard Axemen, but one that won't mess up the balance of a Vampire upgrade.