The First and Second Balkan war's

[fing0lfin]

Some of the older macadonians i think, feel Bulgarians.And many of the people who lives in Serbia , Greece and Romania (near the border) feels Bulgarians and talk Bulgarian.And actualy there never have been a country Macadonia. It was formed before some years.
And about the two languages...they are the same.Just find any word in Bulgarian or Macadonian and you will see it's the same.
Drugarce kaj zivees ti?? Makedonija e na site samo ne na Makedoncite-Macadonian.
The same in Bulgarian
Drugariu kak jiveesh ti ?? Makedonia e na vsichki samo ne na Makedoncite.

Note: Words like site=vsichki are dialect forms, still used in some parts of Bulgaria.
Some other little differances are due to the fact that tha Bulgarian and Macadonian alphabet is Cyrilic and it can't be written exactly the same on latin.

 

[Aion]

In all books that i've read of the subject and all European Language maps i've seen. Macedon is classed as it's on separate language from Bulgarian.

It's always a political question what you consider a separate language. For example Serbs, Croats and Bosnians speak all the same language (only that they use different writing systems), but officially it's three languages. Similar case with Romanian/Moldavian, Malay/Indonesian etc. There's a saying that 'a language is a dialect with an army', and that's quite true, I think.

 

[sydhe]

The answer to whether Macedonian is a separate language or Bulgarian is: both!

Here's how John McWhorter put it in The Power of Babel (Great book, by the way.):

Yet travelling from humble hamlet to humble hamlet across the former Yugoslavia...the linguist encounters a continuum of dialects changing Gurage-style from village to village...

In larger view, this particular continuum encompasses "languages" even beyond Serbo-Croatian. Not only can Bulgarians understand Macedonians next door, but Macedonians on the border with Yugoslavia can communicate with Serbo-Croatian speakers on the other side, such that Serbo-Croatian, Macedonian and Bulgarian form a grand continuum. Standard Serbo-Croatian are as different as Spanish and Italian but are linked by a procession of dialects--and even a whole "language'"--falling on a continuum linking them in a kind of living exhibit of one morphing into another in space just as languages morph into one another in time.

You get a similar continuum in dialects in German, which can be more different than Swedish, Norwegian and Danish.

 

[Companiero]

The problem isnt whther the languages are the same or not. Quite naturally, the literature Macedonian language is not the same with the Bulgarian, since they are codified as separate ones. The spoken languages in the whole Balkan Slavic linguistic area are arranged in a lignuistic continuum. For example, people from Kumanovo (city in Macedonia near the Serbian border) and Vranje (Serbian city near the Macedonian border) speak very similar and yet their dialect is rather different than the respective official languages of the countries. The same goes for the Bulgarian-Macedonian relation. As much as I can understand Bulgarian (but cant speak it), I don’t understand some Eastern Bulgarian dialects and also people from these areas wouldnt understand people living in Western Macedonia. There are some more isolated dialects within Macedonia that even a native Macedonian speaker cant understand (eg. Berovo, a mountainous town near the Bulgarian border). What concerns me personally is the political agenda behind this so-called language issue. How can someone so fervently deny the national identity of an entire group of people who choose to define themselves as they feel. There’s no notable number (more than 0,1%, that is) of people in Macedonia which declare themselves Bulgarians, according to the recent census. The historical background of the national identity development is more trickier however, so you can discuss it in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=91174). This policy of denying Macedonian identity has its roots in history when it was used as an argument for Bulgarian expansions. Today the Bulgarian government and more serious parties are progressively oriented and don’t deal anymore with these ghosts of the past. But there are some people who refuse to give up their national-romantic dreams of great Empires, as evidenced by some members who visit this site.

Ps: The parole our Bulgarian friend decided to use as an example would translate as: “Where do you live, pal? Macedonia belongs to everyone, except to the Macedonians.” This example explains the situation quite qell.

 

[Aion]

Well, saying that Macedonian and Bulgarian are virtually the same language doesn't mean denying Macedonia's independence. Macedonia has become a nation by historical reasons, just like Belgium and Austria are nations, although there is no 'Belgian' or 'Austrian' ethnicity. Yet nobody would deny Belgium's or Austria's legitimacy.

 

[fing0lfin]

But there are some people who refuse to give up their national-romantic dreams of great Empires, as evidenced by some members who visit this site.- if this is for me i will only say that i am a nationalist. I love my country.Companiero you are from Macadonia and you should know about BMPO and Ilinden 1903.And about the national-romantic dremas of great empire i would say'We don't want nothing from the others, but we don't give nothing ours to them'- this are words of one famous Bulgarion revolutioner-V. Levski

 

[sydhe]

fingOlfin:

I look at the size of Macedonia compared with Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece, and think BMPO is pretty much nuts. Not to say groups of nuts can't cause a humungous amount of damage. They may be able to whip Albania.

There is a small group which wants to take the Spanish-speaking Sections of the United States and annex them to Mexico. (I think Mexico is really embarassed by them.) I don't see why this should prejudice us against Mexico. As near as I can tell, the Macedonian government has enough to do keeping peace with its neighbors without attributing delusions of grandeur to them.

Macedonia has an army of 12,000. They're hardly in a position to conquer their neighbors. It's like France cowering in fear of Belgium. Although, given the American fears of Iraq, it's hard to denigrate Balkan paranoia.

 

[Greek Stud]

You are looking at troop numbers in a world that is leading to a global democracy. Greece is not fearing invassion, they are confronting democratic issues where a group of people are trying to steal the Greek National identity that ties the Hellenic History to Alexander the Great.

The Macedonian Issue is plain and simple; Slavs claim to be descendents of Alexander, they speak Bulgarian and the ruins of Alexander are in Greek. The flow and change of dialects of the Cyrillic script and language are continuous through-out the Balkans; which means populations have been moved, isolated, yet carry a common root in their language. Cyrillic and Greek have nothing in common.

If Slavic-Bulgarians mixed with the Greeks of Macedonia they are a part of the Macedonia group; therefore they cannot be determined as the whole of the group, as most of Macedonian identity is translated and tied through the Greek language.

FYROM is in Peoria, it only has a small portion of the Macedonian region. The only historical person that has mapped FYROM as Macedonia is Communist leader Marshall Tito. He initiated the state name Socialist Republic of Macedonia. If the determination of these people is to be named after a region they are barely a part of, and then to name themselves the heirs to Macedonism; why should the Greeks ignore this? Give me a good, sensible reason why this issue is not a suspiscious one, especially when school books list the issue as one that deals with supression and secret languages, and that Greeks plot to steal Macedonism when it is already the founding of Greek unity. Just because I am Athenian in blood does not mean I am not Greek. Athenians are Greek, Spartans are Greek, Cretans are Greek, Pontics are Greek, and Macedonians are Greek. They are the City-States that united to create the Hellenic Identity; we are the Hellenic Republic.

No matter how many 100s of years Greeks are displaced from their homes, the archeological findings will always remain the same: Alexander the Great united an Hellenic Empire.

 

[fing0lfin]

The Alexander the Great Macadonians have nothing similar to the people which leave in Macadonia now.

"BMPO is pretty much nuts." You are insulting the memory of heroes by this.The members of BMPO were brave and courageus.They made a revolt, so that Macadonia can unite with Bulgaria again.Later BMPO volunteers fough in the Bulgarian army.And revolutions are not made by nuts.

 

[Aion]

Oh dear, the Balkans :shakehead... Really giving me a headache each time

 

[fing0lfin]

Go to a doctor

 

[sydhe]

We haven't heard from Albania yet.

 

[Companiero]

Well, saying that Macedonian and Bulgarian are virtually the same language doesn't mean denying Macedonia's independence. Macedonia has become a nation by historical reasons, just like Belgium and Austria are nations, although there is no 'Belgian' or 'Austrian' ethnicity. Yet nobody would deny Belgium's or Austria's legitimacy.

Aion, I think thats a good remark for a start. But drawing such paralels I'm afraid doesnt correspond to the actual case with Macedonia. No one in Macedonia wants to be considered Bulgarian ethnicity, and the Macedonian state in 1944 was created by Macedonians considering themselves a consititutive ethno-nation seperate from neighbouring ones, with seperate language, history and culture. Thats not at all the case with Austria and Belgium. Is Bulgaria or Greece to tell these people who they are and how they are supposed to feel? (note that i use the term national identity, not in the sense of state-being, but ethno-nation identity)
Its true that denying national identity doesnt mean denying the state, but you fail to see the historical perspective here and its present implications. Both Bulgaria and Greece had large Macedonian minorities, and precisely this "harmless" policy of denying the identity brought to the mare annihilation of the two minorities in both countries. Even today, Greece gets haavy criticism from human rights groups for the same thing, and even today Macedonians born there suffer cultural opression and discrimination if openly declare their nationality. The most effective form of minority opression is always through denying the national identity. And thats what you're seeing here - Balkanism at work.

sydhe, it seems to me you consider other countries consider VMRO to be a present threat. VMRO doesnt exist today (except that the name is part of a political partys name), and theres no way/grounds anyone could fear it. At the time being, VMRO fought for autonomy of Macedonia, when Macedonia was under Ottoman Empire. They failed and thus Bulgaria, Greece and Serbia conquered Macedonia and declared each part to be their own territory.

Greek Stud, you're getting annoying.

To everyone (especially non-Balkanians) intending to post, i strongly recommend reading the starting post in this thread (Macedonians; Who were they? Who are they?) first in order to get a general idea about the problem. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=91174

 

[Greek Stud]

Companiero, is that all you have to say? Because it is annoying to hear you jump from ethno-national claims to self-determination. Just tell everyone, when you call yourself Macedonian, are you or are you not saying your ethnic group is the sole heir to Alexander the Great?

*Your nation is not in Macedonia, it is in Peoria
*Suppression from expressing yourself as the only Macedonians in which you do not recognize Greek-speaking Macedonians as Macedonians. This is suppression of our rights to the Macedonian identity. So stop playing the victum
*Skopje was the staging point that armed Communist rebels in the Greek Civil War; your claim to identity has already brought war to Greece

 

[fing0lfin]

Stop using the name Alexander the Great? The today's Macadonians aren't the Alexander the Great macadonians.
But isn't if somehow funny ? Greeks say "Macadonians are Greeks", Bulgarinas say "Macadonians are Bulgarinas", Macadonian says that they are Macadonians and may be the albans will say that the macadonians are Albans

 

[Kyriakos]

Just to be sane here: Greece does not claim any land of the sovereign country of the former yugoslavian republic of macedonia. The only dispute is over the name. If it was called "slav macedonia" i personally would not mind, but to call it just "macedonia" would create the illusion that it has something to do with alexander the great, when obviously it has nothing whatsoever to do with ancient macedonia. Only a small part of the former yugoslav republic of macedonia was ever part of the ancient macedonian kingdom, and both of that kingdom's historical capitals (Pella, and Thessalonike ) are in Greece.
Putting aside the question of whether or not the ancient macedonians were greek or not (which bores me) it is obvious that they were not slavs or bulgarians.

btw i am macedonian too, since i am in greek macedonia. Is that supposed to make me a macedonian of the former yugoslav republic of macedonia too? Ofcourse not. There are over 2,5 million greeks in greek macedonia, and they are, quite understandably, called macedonians, like a texan is called a texan, and still he is an american too. In Greece macedonia is a region, it has nothing to do with the country with that name, to the north of us.

 

[Kyriakos]

I propose the FYROM to rename itself to "The definitely not Greek republic of Bulgaria 2 that has nothing to do with the definitely Greek province of Macedonia", the language to "A not Greek related dialect that is closer to Bulgarian than to Greek" and Skopje to "Certainly not Thessaloniki, much less Pella". The people should name themselves "Not Greek". The state motto should from now on be "Alexander was Greek, and we are not". The national flag should be purely grey because that is a neutral colour and won't upset the Greeks because it does not use any imagery that is in any way related to Greece. Finally, the country should pay copyrights to the Greeks for using the Macedonian name over the past centuries.

Very nice Stefan And good luck with your Huns civ2 scen

 

[Companiero]

varwnos, the name Macedonia doesnt only relate to the Ancient Macedonia; since Vi century this territory was populated with majority of Slavs who became part of the identity of what Macedonia represents. A perfect equivalent of what you're saying is someone to force Russia to put a "slavic" adjective in front of their name, because the name Russia "creates the illusion that the Russians are descendants of ancient Russ", which is out of everyone's mind. Yes, if we had nukes as well, it would've been out of everyone's mind as well.
Also, you seem to forget the fact that although the half of Macedonia is now in Greece, it was taken (literally) from the Slavic Macedonians who lived there (1913), and what this topic is about - the Balkan Wars, and its democratic composition dramatically altered by force soonafter. Greeks always seem to avoid this period when talking about the "Macedonian issue".
Furthermore, even if we do suppose Ancient Macedonians were Greeks, claiming right of land and name based on ancient rights (more than 15(!) centuries) is as anachronic as it gets.

Instead of indulgung into name bashing and all, i'd like you Greeks to provide more info about the Balkan Wars and how Greek historiography treats the events, so that we both can have advantage from such a exchange.

 

[Kyriakos]

I am not familiar with the ethnic divisions in 1912-13, and i am sure that a number of slavs, possibly big (i dont know) stayed in Greece after the new territory was annexed. Likewise a number of greeks remained in Vitola/Monastery and other cities in the serb annexed part of the region of Macedonia. It seems though that both groups were assimilated into the other nations, and i am sure that this didnt happen exactly democratically in some cases... but i disagree that it was a conspiracy against a unique macedonian ethnicity; in the case of Greece it probably was against panslavism in the balcans, and revisionism, and in Serbia for similar reasons, and also in Bulgaria in eastern Rumelia. No one is 100% greek or 100% slav or 100% bulgarian or anything else in the balcans, i am sure, but we have to try to communicate in better terms, and not be so suspicious of each other
I think that it would have been a lot easier for Greece to accept the name Macedonia for your country if it was obvious that this would not lead to weird far-right ideas, and to confusion about your relation to the ancient Macedonia. It ovviously was a huge dimplomatic error to insist that the name of fyromacedonia did not include the word macedonia at all, since iirc the name "slav macedonia" and "north macedonia" were also suggested at the time, and Greece wrongly denied. I am also aware that since your new constitution you cannot now adopt the name Slav Macedonia, since albanians are recognised as a "founding ethnicity" (along with slav macedonians ofcourse!) of your country. Personally i want the name dispute to stop as soon as possible, since then relations can become better, and the region needs stability and good relations. Perhaps "north macedonia" will be a future name proposition.

I realise that a country needs to have a serious name, but the situation in the balcans is always tricky. Someone once made the parallelism betwen fyr. macedonia and greek macedonia, and northern italy becomming seperated into new countries, and one of which would choose the name "Tyrolia". This would be problematic for the austrians, for similar reasons Or even european turkey becomming an independant nation, naming itself Byzantium (!), or Thrace

 

[Greek Stud]

The conflicts of 1912-1913 have much to do with the Slavic invasions in the 6th century. You can not pick and choose which Macedonians you want to talk about to prove your case. When Slavs entered the Byzantine Empire, they were not accepted. The acts of Cyril & Methodus to translate Orthodoxy for the Slavs, was an act to bring communication between our communities.

Slavic migration into Macedonia progressed to the Slavs over-throwing the Greek Macedonians and declaring independence. In 1913, Greek revolutionaries threw out the Slavs and Bulgarian speaking villages. Many were innocent and many were not; many Slavs, Bulgars, Greeks worked with the Turks to supress all non-Muslims. But the Slavic side to the Macedonian Issue is for the purpose of corrupting Greek Macedonian legitimacy. The Latin States did this to the Byzantine Empire and so did the Catalonians who have just paid 200,000 EU dollars to the monastary at Mount Athos for the purpose of good-will gesturing remorse for when they pillaged the monastery.

Greek Macedonia is approximately 90% of the region called Macedonia. It is not half as has been stated, it is the majority. Whereas FYROM has 100% of Paeoria, the region the ancient Macedonians conquered before the Illyric Wars.