The First and Second Balkan war's

varwnos: Actually European Turkey could call themselves Byzantium since old Byzantium is on their territory. Thrace would be pushing it, though. East Thrace maybe.

I wonder if West Africans have this kind of discussion about Ghana, since the old empire of that name and the current state share no territory. Cape Verde isn't in Cape Verde, either.
 
Everybody can call him as he wish.Infered from your minds if i go to live in China, i could call my self Chines ? But i am not and will never be.
The turks aren't Byzantians. They are differen races.And about Thrace, nobosy is Thracian now, The thracians had dissapeard soon after the coming of the slavs and bulgarians.Some joined Bulgaria, and some just dissapeard.
 
In some languages the latin word "race" is substituted with a word that means "people, tribe" etc. In greek for example the equivelant for "race" is Eidos (it helps that a huge number of greek words are used in other languages too ;) ) Eidos means species, and would be the word used when talking about the human race. However when one would be talking about a specific group of peoples, other words would be used.
I am pretty sure that Flingolfin meant the same thing, so there is no reason for such comments, Reno :p :)
 
Reno said:
Obviously.



They are different peoples. (There is only one human race) ;)


Different people are the Germans and the Spains for exaple.But the turks and the byzantiums had different fenotipes.And there are much more than one races ;)I am not a racist, and i don't say that one race is supperior than other, but there are different races.
 
I wasn't saying the Turks were Byzantines. I was saying that since the city of that name was located in European Turkey, they could use the name if they became independent. East Thrace would be better, since I don't think the Thracians would object. Is Belgium inhabited by the Belgae or Portugal by the Celts?
 
fing0lfin said:
Different people are the Germans and the Spains for exaple.But the turks and the byzantiums had different fenotipes.And there are much more than one races ;)I am not a racist, and i don't say that one race is supperior than other, but there are different races.

This is controversial (as if this thread weren't already controversial enough :rolleyes: ). I know there are still many people (especially in the US, but also elsewhere), who still adhere to the concept of races, but for many people (especially here in Germany, understandably) it has become discredited. I don't allege that you imply one race to be superior, of course. But the concept of races can be ideologically abused quite easily, leading to chauvinism or racism. That's why I don't like talking of races.

Also, can you explain me why Germans and Spaniards are different people but Turks and Greeks different races? Because the former three are indo-european and the latter are turkish? Would you then consider a Swede and a Pakistani being different peoples (both indo-european) but a Swede and a Finn different races (one indo-european, one fenno-ugric)? And what about the Slavs (indo-europeans as well)? According to the old (and unsustaibable, of course) stereotype they should be 'Asians' or 'Mongols'. You're a Bulgarian. Do you feel very Mongol? :lol:
 
What is certain is that popular feeling in Greece in the early 90s did not help at all a solution. But the fear here was (and for some people this fear persists) that the (slav) macedonians would use the name to form unrealistic claims on Greece in the future, and lead to a progressive historical revisionism about their new country (that it has ties with ancient Macedonia, or that it has historical claims on other balcan countries). Albania's own claims on neighbouring countries have already lead to a great deal of turmoil in the region, and in FYR.Macedonia most of all, where the situation was a real civil war a few years ago. This lead to the adoption of a new constitution, where, as i already have noted, albanians are regarded as an equal founding state, alongside the slav macedonians.

Whereas i certainly do realise that most of the feeling of people here is generated due to false reasons (and sometimes we think that our own history is more important than other people's, which is dead wrong) i still am of the view that in Fyr.Macedonia there is stil great difficulty to form a solid nation, which wont be behaving against its neighbours. Greek Macedonia has its own problems, but we do not need the prospect of future hostility from a neighbour :)

Most of the foreign investment in slav Macedonia is by greeks, and there have been instances of racial attacks against them.

If we were just clear about what each other thinks about the situation it would be a lot easier to communicate. I am sure that no sane person in greek macedonia would react badly against someone from slav macedonia, who just wanted to be called that because of the region, and had no claim on other people's land/history etc. The best way to resolve issues anyway is to not polarise, since when people polarise it is near impossible to get them to view the other person logically.

That said i am sure that if i was a teenager in slav Macedonia i would too tend to feel badly against greeks, but then this would not have much to do with the actual people, but more to do with my psychology. Being sincere and open about any issue is the only way to communicate :)

Also i would like to note that i am 26 now, and definately would never demonise the slav macedonians. The fact that i add the word "slav" infont of that is only because i want to make the distinction between the greek macedonians and the slav macedonians. I would like it very much if in the future we could have a bigger bond, due to the common name the region had since medieval times, and not to be demonising each other. Hostile and uneducated people exist in all countries, but you should not think that everyone is like that, and always remember that when people feel afraid they react with hostility (or despair). What one has to do is to communicate ;)
 
Aion said:
This is controversial (as if this thread weren't already controversial enough :rolleyes: ). I know there are still many people (especially in the US, but also elsewhere), who still adhere to the concept of races, but for many people (especially here in Germany, understandably) it has become discredited. I don't allege that you imply one race to be superior, of course. But the concept of races can be ideologically abused quite easily, leading to chauvinism or racism. That's why I don't like talking of races.

Also, can you explain me why Germans and Spaniards are different people but Turks and Greeks different races? Because the former three are indo-european and the latter are turkish? Would you then consider a Swede and a Pakistani being different peoples (both indo-european) but a Swede and a Finn different races (one indo-european, one fenno-ugric)? And what about the Slavs (indo-europeans as well)? According to the old (and unsustaibable, of course) stereotype they should be 'Asians' or 'Mongols'. You're a Bulgarian. Do you feel very Mongol? :lol:

Well, as you know most of the peoples of Western Europe have come from the German tribes.And most of the peoples from Easter Europe have come from the Slavs.And the turks are asians, nomadic tribes.And about the slavs stereotype, you are mistaken.They have nothing to do with the Asians and Mongols.The slavs were tall and blondhaired.According to some theories the proto Bulgarians were Mongols.And about what i feel, I feel Bulgarian.Because when the slavs and proto Bulgarians made their country, a new culture was born - The Bulgarian.

We can't just close our eyes and say that all people in the world are the same.There ARE different races.The black, the white, and the yellow.But i think that aren't the all races and this isn't right.The Indians(Americans) are different race, and the Indians(Asian) too as well as the arabs.
 
I didn't say the Slavs are Mongols :crazyeye: It was meant to illustrate how absurd race theory can get. And how do you want to know if the proto-Slavs were tall or blond-haired or whatever? And if you talk about Bulgarian culture or identity you're completely right, but what does that have to do with race?
 
Reno said:
Anyway that's not the topic of this thread.
True.

varwnos: You're completely right, of course. I don't know anything that could be added to what you said. Anyway, unfortunately it seems there are not enough people in that region who are as sensitive. Nationalistic feelings seem to be quite strong in all these countries, also in Greece: Think of that poor albanian guy who had to die when Albania beat Greece in football :shakehead. And Greece fails to officially recognise its national minorities. But it isn't any better in Greece's neighbouring countries: In Turkey you can get in prison for admitting the genocide on the Armenians (but that's a different topic, again). And Macedonia, Bulgaria, Albania: well, everybody seems to hate each other. Maybe we should concentrate on the reasons for these sentiments? Is it because Balkans' history is so darn complicated? It seems to me that quite everybody has ben oppressed by everybody: The Pontic Greeks were expelled from Turkey, the Turks from Greece, the Macedonians from Greece, the Greeks from Macedonia etc. Sometimes I lose sight. That's what I meant when I said the Balkans is giving me a headache :)
 
Reno said:
That's the same rubish that the nazi's used to tell about what the Arians looked like. ;)

Anyway that's not the topic of this thread.

It is not the same.I don't say that beeing tall and blond is mark of race superrior than others.It's just conclusion made by the historians.You can't get the difference.Arians are tall and blond- this is neither racisim, nor nationalsotialism.
But if i say that those who are tall and blond are superrior from the black people for example, it would be racisim and nationalsotialism.

@Aion: I was just answering your las question-'Do you feel very Mongol?'.
 
I dont view tall and blond as anything superior. I do not even recall a single blond person who was a genius, when there are tons of dark haired geniuses :) Also it would appear that being blond is not ussually linked with sexuality either, although this is ofcourse a generalisation.
 
varwnos said:
I dont view tall and blond as anything superior. I do not even recall a single blond person who was a genius, when there are tons of dark haired geniuses :) Also it would appear that being blond is not ussually linked with sexuality either, although this is ofcourse a generalisation.

Nobody is saing that.I was just giving an example.

But actually isn't this ' I do not even recall a single blond person who was a genius, when there are tons of dark haired geniuses :)' racisim?
 
hm i didn't mean it as a racist comment, but you are right, it was not correct anyway. However i am sure that most slavs and most bulgarians are dark haired too ;)
It probably is mostly me, i cannot really think of a blond genius, although there must be some.
 
Balkan Wars - Supplement


Political circumstances on the Balkans in the early XX

The Ottoman Empire in the dawn of the XX was rahter weak, both economically and politically. The recent Russo-Turkish War of 1877-1878 that costed them huge portions from the Balkan peninsula was a huge blow to the Empire. Foreign capital (railways, factories, mines exploitation) was beginning to enter Turkey as well, but it was badly lagging behind other developed European neighbours. A new citizen class appeared (the Young Turks) opting for liberal far-fetched reforms, who eventually (1908) took power and overthrew the sultan, but proved not much better than the previous regimes.
Bulgaria, Serbia and Montenegro got their independence on the Berlin Congress (1878) and in each there were small Balkan dynsties whose interests mingled with the interests of the two great powers interested for the Balkans (Austria and Russia). Although initially the Obrenovic dynasty ruled Serbia (which were pro-Austrian), in 1903 a new dynasty, Karagorgevic, gains power after the assasination of king Alexandar I Obrenovic and Petar I Karagorgevic is made king. He led strong pro-Russian policy, which would cause the increaisng animosity with Austria leading to WW1 later.
Bulgaria’s king Ferdinand came from a German dynasty, what explains his inclination towards Austria. What’s more important about Bulgaria was the annexation of the autonomous principality of East Rumelia (South-central Bulgaria) in 1886, which caused dissatisfactin in Russia and Turkey, since the principality was created on the Berlin Congress as means to hold Bulgarian territorial pretensions at bay.
Greece in 1913 was a kingdom under the protection of the Western powers (traditionally, Britain).
Whats common for all Balkan nations are the strong nationalist movements, who taught by the guiding example of their bigger European patrons, each craved for a piece of “empire” for themselves. Thus, Bulgaria dreamt of Great Bulgaria (having acquired East Rumelia) encompassing all of Macedonia, Thrace and Dobruja; Serbia wanted to exapnd southward to Kosovo and Macedonia, gain Bosnia and Vojvodina from Austro-Hungary; Greece had her eyes on Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace, all the Aegean islands across the sea including the Western coast of Asia Minor (Ionia) – the Megali idea.


Macedonia in the early XX

In Macedonia, even before the Balkan Wars errupted, all three neighbouring nations led propagandas in order to recruit the local populace for their causes, telling them they are Greeks, Serbians and Bulgarians respectivly. The foreign propagandas, in the absence of administrative apparatus were carried out through church missionaries and the so called church-school regions. These regions ever since the end of the Ohrid Archiepiscopy (run by Slavic Macedonian episcopes) in 1767, were under the rule of the Constantinopole Patriarchy (Greek clergy). (The Turkish authorities allowed relative religious freedom and independence throughout their reign, so they generally didn’t care about the affairs in the Christian world.) These church-school regions were places where one could get education (religious indeed, but that also included learning how to read and write). Starting in the end of XVIII, Greek language and alphabet started to replace Old Church Slavonic and the Cyrilic in the churhc schools. Thus, Greek language and clergy restricted any development of independent Macedonian thought during the first half of the XIX. However, in the second half of XIX, members of Macedonian inteligentsia who studied in Russia, began to see the need for reimplementing Slavic language in the churches and education system. In 1860 they file a request to the Turkish sultan for reestablishing the Ohrid Archiepiscopy and for changeing the Greek clergy in Macedonia. The two brothers (Miladinovi) which lead this initiative were imprisoned in Istanbul and died there in 1862. The so called anti-phanariotic struggle doesn’t stop however and even intensifies as Bulgaria (who gained independence in 1878, don’t forget) opens up to be new centre for Macedonian intellectuals who get education in Slavic there. They have big support from local populace who give money to open new schools and churches, where education and church service is carried out in common language. Other (Slavic) Macedonians yet, stick to Greek Patriarchist clergy. The Bulgarian Exarchy (Church) supports the Macedonian intellectuals in their struggle against Greek and they begin a bitter church struggle in Turkish Macedonia to win more church-school regions. The Macedonian population support is undecided between the two blocks, but still leaning towards the Exarchy. Even the Serbian church opened schools and sent missionaries to Macedonia to spread Serbian language and culture. What this seemingly “noble” struggle for education in fact meant, was preparing the terrain for the future conquerings of Macedonia (which each neighbour viewed as its own natural right) in order to rally the population for their causes and enforce Greek/Bulgarian/Serbian national consciousness.


Macedonian resistance

The Macedonian emigration formed numerous communities in other countries that promoted Macedonian culture and the idea for Macedonian autonomy or Balkan federation of equal peoples etc. Most notable are the Macedonian society in Sofia (1891), the Young Macedonian Literary Society (issued a paper “Vines”) in Sofia, the Macedonian Socialist Group, also Sofia; in Serbia: teachers community “Vardar” (1893), Macedonian club (1902), a student community in Belgrade who issued a paper to be forbidden soon. Then there are others in Switzerland (Secret Macedonian Revolutionary Cometee – 1900), Russia (Secret Macedonian Revolutionary Society – 1900) and others.
Most notable was the formation of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) in 1893 in Solun (Thesaloniki) in Macedonia, which organized an armed struggle for the liberation of Macedonia and its autonomy. In 1895 in Sofia the Supreme Cometee of IMRO (an external body of IMRO) was formed, supported by Bulgaria which had on its agenda a unification with Bulgaria after the initial autonomy. The political disvision within the IMRO started to boil up to the point where they started to assasinate each other until the pro-Bulgarian wing completely overtook the organization in 1912, if i’m not mistaken about the year.
However, two notable events did happen in 1903 which greatly increased European interest for the Balkans and contributed to the general climate which led to the Balkan Wars. First in 1903, were the terrorist attacks of a young group of Macedonian anarchists, who bombed the bank and railway in Solun (Thessaloniki), in order to send a message to the European public about the urgency of the Maceodnian question. And later that year on 2. August 1903, the Ilinden Uprising happened, which created the Krusevo Republic, which lasted for 10 days before the insurrection being bloodily quelled by the Turkish army. The people who organized the uprising were aware of the multicultural character of Macedonia, so they called for all “the Macedonians and their brothers: Albanians, Vlachs, Turks” to join them in their fight for freedom. The uprising had a republican, liberal and socialist character, which was the reason that even some Turks supported the insurgents.


Awakened European interest and new Balkan constellations

Even on the Berlin Congress there were ideas about Macedonian autonomy, proposed by Austria, but weren’t effectualized.
After the Ilinden Uprising, the European powers (Russia and Austria) considered giving Macedonia autonomy, but since no real war had been fought, it was hard to extort such concessions from Turkey. On the so called Mirtzstadt treaties (1903), several acts regarding Macedonia were brought: that urgent reforms are needed (Turkey didn’t comply, of course), foreign millitary officers were sent to Macedonia to observe the situation, but nothing substantional improved. In 1908 (Ravel Treaty), Macedonian autonomy again was brought up by England and Russia, but nothing happened.
This was enough for the Balkan petty monarchies to prepare for conquest war. Montenegro, Greece, Serbia and Bulgaria allied themselves in the “Balkan League” and attacked Turkey with much success. Initially Serbia and Bulgaria made an agreement for conquering Macedonia and drew the division line (cutting present territory of Republic of Macedonia diagonally in half). However, as soon as the millitary clashes began and Serbia got the bigger piece of the cake, Bulgaria began complaining. Serbia wouldn’t want to step back its armies and Bulgaria attacked Serbia and Greece (summer 1913 - Second Balkan War). Unsuccessfully. The final border lines dividing Macedonia in three, were drawn in Bucharest in August 1913.


The political conditions in Macedonia (1913-1945)

Macedonians were the majority in all three parts of Macedonia, prior to the Balkan Wars. Other population included Turks, Greeks (south), Vlachs, Albanians (west), Armenians, Roma etc. In all three parts of Macedonia an aggressive assimilatinist policy was implemented.
Greece: Macedonian language was forbidden for every kind of use, even domestic, Macedonian culture was supressed, toponymes were changed from Slavic to Greek (Solun - Thessaloniki, Voden – Edessa, Kukus – Kilkis, Ber – Veria, Lerin – Florina etc), personal names were changed to Greek version, taxes imposed. With the Ney and Laussane (1923) Treaty 90,000 Macedonians (Slavs from the Greek conquered Macedonia) were forcably moved to Bulgaria; 40,000 (Slavic) Macedonian muslims were moved to Turkey (along with 300,000 Turks from all Greece) and in their place over one million Greek colonists from Asia Minor were brought and given free land. Cultural terror over the Macedonians was especially present during the reign of the totalitarian dictator Ioanis Metaxas (1936) supported by Britain. During the Greek Civil War (1946-1949) Macedonians massively supported the Greek Communist Party (which promised them right of self-determination, even autonomy). Total of 150,000 died in the war after the defeat of GCP, among them many Macedonians, another around 70,000 Macedonians were forced to emigrate to USSR or Yugoslavia, but a large number also stayed there living without any minority rights.
Serbia: Serbian conquered Macedonia declared “Vardar banovina”; Serbian propaganda through papers, schools and church (Serbian language and national identity), surnames changed from –ski to –ic ending, around 4,200 Serbian famillies colonized in Macedonia and given free land
Bulgaria: anarchy in the Bulgarian Macedonia part under the troops of pro-Bulgarian IMRO, huge poverty, hardly any schools altogether, cultural propaganda.
 
Varwnos, I very much appreciate your responses. I too agree that one needs to keep a cold head and look towards a common solution to the problems. Future prospects of a peninsula without borders, as we on the Balkans are very much hoping, are more real than ever in the face of the new Europe. But I also strongly believe that if any hopes of this new Europe are to become true, we must approach to solving the problems of the past, not forgetting them, acknowledging the mistakes and make sure they don’t happen again. Israel and Germany would have never ended in peace with each other, if it wasn’t for the open acknowledgment of past mistakes and atrocities. It is in this context that I want to offer you some more information about similar actions that have taken place in Macedonia in the past, which I believe you dont know much about. Not because of your lack of intellectual curiosity (you strike me as a very open-minded guy), but because Greek historiography still keeps many things under the rug, at the same time glorifying ancient achievements and creating powerful national myths from them. The same happens in most countries in fact, mainly because nation-states feed on national myths, but we’re not 19th century anymore and we have to look to the common future free from such moulds of thought.
We cant do that without acknowledging the cultural genocide in Macedonia, which happened and sadly, is still happening. Just out of curiousity, can you, as a Greek Macedonian, trace your ancestors line back to 1913? Where does it lead to?
In Bitola in 1913 (being a major city in the region) there could have been some Greeks (merchants maybe), but nothing even near a notable number. We cant play dumb and pretend we don’t see the difference between a systematic brutal assimilation and 10 Greeks dissolving into a pool of 200,000 Macedonians.
Its true that no one is 100% anything. Ethnically, we’re all one colourful mix of the peoples that have crossed the Balkans during the ages. But what is important is to respect each other’s own self-determination of national identity.
Republic of Macedonia after her independence has changed its flag and constitution, clearly stating that it has no whatsoever territorial pretensions against any of its neighbours, so any fear is unfounded and product of propaganda. Its even irrational to believe that we could threaten any country’s sovereignity when we have hard time keeping our own in the first place.
Btw, the Thracians were much more longer around than the coming of the Slavs. Even well into the XVIII century there were traces of Thracian ethnic identity, but i’ve only read too little (perhaps vrylakas can elaborate).

Concerning the name issue, I think any combination of adjective plus “Macedonia” would be considered offensive by all Macedonians and not serious. There are options though, like exclusively “Republic of Macedonia” in all instances, or changing “Macedonia” to the original in Macedonian - “Makedonija”, adding something in brackets etc. I also think both parties should officially distance themselves from any claim on the decendancy of Ancient Macedonians and leave that question to the scientists and historians.
What I disagree with you though: What do you mean “racial attacks against Greek investors”? We’re begging for investors currently with 40% unemployment.
Also, you’re not correct that Albania had any kinds of territorial pretensions towards any of its neighbours. During the ethnic conflict in 2001, Albania gave the most valuable support for the territorial integrity of Macedonia from all our neighbours.
I’m also ashamed from few ignorant nationalists here in my country who sometimes show up with paroles on political rallies like “Solun is ours.”, which is ridicilous :) and I despise those who speak bad for Greeks per se, because personally I like Greece very much, although you don’t like us much. :)
 
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