The Great Tank vs. Spearman Challenge

[Salvor]

First of all, you can't have a metropolis in mountains. Nor can you have a fortification in a metropolis. So the premise is far worse than anything that can actually be achieved in the game.

But try to picture a tank assaulting an urban fortified mountaintop.

If you ask me, 71% is way too high.

If you put the metropolis in hills and acknowledge that you can't build a fortress in a city, the lone tank assault now has an 87.2% chance of success. Bombard with artillery, and your odds go up to 97.9%. Use a veteran tank and now the odds are 99.4%, just as Zach pointed out.

 

[DarkwingGT]

To Zachriel: In reference to my post way back, I would hardly call one sentence a tirade, and I was merely pointing out a perception, not actually claiming you are.

One solution, only allow infantry to capture cities. Doesn't solve iffy combat but would make more sense.

 

[aneeshm]

What I meant was that a garrisoned impi in a metropolis on hills OR a fortified impi on a mountain in a fortress .

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by DarkwingGT

One solution, only allow infantry to capture cities. Doesn't solve iffy combat but would make more sense.

I like that idea. Or maybe just give infantry a bonus when attacking cities like there was in SMAC.

 

[Loopy]

I've asked for save games before and gotten the same response. Even though it happens "all the time", it never seems to happen again after asking for a save game. Must be asking for a save game, or knowing that you should save these "everyday occurances" fixes the combat RNG. Go figure.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Loopy
I've asked for save games before and gotten the same response. Even though it happens "all the time", it never seems to happen again after asking for a save game. Must be asking for a save game, or knowing that you should save these "everyday occurances" fixes the combat RNG. Go figure.

I think this thread had the intended effect though. I have not seen a whining post on this topic since this thread started. Maybe we should make an effort to keep it on the first page so everyone sees it. Thanks Shaitan!

 

[Shaitan]

Originally posted by eyrei
I think this thread had the intended effect though. I have not seen a whining post on this topic since this thread started. Maybe we should make an effort to keep it on the first page so everyone sees it. Thanks Shaitan!

My pleasure!

 

[simwiz2]

Ok bad news, no tank-killing spearman savegame. Like I said, the game happened in late oct/early nov. So the save game is long gone from his hard drive

and i modded my game to fix combat, so theres not much chance that I will get any savegames to post here (of course that just proves my mod is working )

if he gets any more tank vs spear incidents i will post them of course.

 

[simwiz2]

Originally posted by Ironikinit
Personally, I'd like to see samples of all the situations in your signature, other than the stealth bomber one.

Before I modded my copy of the game, they happened all the time. In fact, even with double unit HP's and destroyer/cruiser/battleship getting doubled attack/defense, i had a vet (8 hp) ironclad take a vet battleship down to half health (4 hp). So without mods, does it really seem outrageous that a Man-O-War could beat a battleship? The "worst" I have actually had pre-mod was an elite man-o-war sunk a veteran destroyer(both full hp). So my sig is a bit exaggerated, but battleship sounds better than destroyer

And knights vs tanks? Wow, all the time practically. I lost a vet tank unfortified on plains to an attacking elite knight once (pre-mod of course). The knight had only 1 hp left though. But still, it has happened to me, and I use veteran units only. I would think if someone used REGULAR tanks it would be even worse.

and we all know about the stealth bomber one

 

[Salvor]

Originally posted by simwiz2


Before I modded my copy of the game, they happened all the time. In fact, even with double unit HP's and destroyer/cruiser/battleship getting doubled attack/defense, i had a vet (8 hp) ironclad take a vet battleship down to half health (4 hp). So without mods, does it really seem outrageous that a Man-O-War could beat a battleship? The "worst" I have actually had pre-mod was an elite man-o-war sunk a veteran destroyer (both full hp). So my sig is a bit exaggerated, but battleship sounds better than destroyer

And knights vs tanks? Wow, all the time practically . I lost a vet tank unfortified on plains to an attacking elite knight once (pre-mod of course). The knight had only 1 hp left though. But still, it has happened to me, and I use veteran units only. I would think if someone used REGULAR tanks it would be even worse.

and we all know about the stealth bomber one [/B]

Simwiz, is there any difference in your mind between "all the time" and "once"?

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by simwiz2


Before I modded my copy of the game, they happened all the time. In fact, even with double unit HP's and destroyer/cruiser/battleship getting doubled attack/defense, i had a vet (8 hp) ironclad take a vet battleship down to half health (4 hp). So without mods, does it really seem outrageous that a Man-O-War could beat a battleship? The "worst" I have actually had pre-mod was an elite man-o-war sunk a veteran destroyer(both full hp). So my sig is a bit exaggerated, but battleship sounds better than destroyer

And knights vs tanks? Wow, all the time practically. I lost a vet tank unfortified on plains to an attacking elite knight once (pre-mod of course). The knight had only 1 hp left though. But still, it has happened to me, and I use veteran units only. I would think if someone used REGULAR tanks it would be even worse.

and we all know about the stealth bomber one

I have never seen a knight take out a fully healthy tank. It's too bad you cannot reproduce those results, I'd love to observe that.

I think we all have seen Calvary take down retreated 1HP tanks. I do it all the time, and I am not sure that is a problem at all. It's a great use of calvary, in addition to suicidal pillaging.

As far as the stealth bomber. I guess it depends on what you see the unit as. I view a Battleship unit as a group of ships, and therefore it is much more realistic to not allow an air unit to destroy it. Historically I know of no example where a fleet was completely destroyed by air attacked. I know of many examples of where a fleet's capabilities were cripped (1 HP in my eyes).

 

[Zachriel]

Remember the Maine?
http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/remember.html
or how to lose a battleship.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Zachriel
Remember the Maine?
http://www.smplanet.com/imperialism/remember.html
or how to lose a battleship.

Maybe that's it, a Man of War is actually a commando unit...

 

[DarkwingGT]

I'm no history buff, but I remember what actually sunk the Maine. It was an internal problem with some sort of wiring. That has nothing to do with Civ3 combat. Unless we should worry about our units suddenly dieing from accidently blowing themselves up or something.

EDIT: IIRC, it was faulty wiring or something that caused a boiler to explode.

 

[simwiz2]

Originally posted by Salvor


Simwiz, is there any difference in your mind between "all the time" and "once"?

In my post I stated the MOST EXTREME results that happened along the lines of my sig. These were by no means the ONLY similar occurence. Although ancient ships dont DESTROY modern ships "all the time", usually a few ancient ships can kill a modern one. "All the time" occurences (about a third of the time) were ancient units taking modern ships down to half/1hp. Possibly a second one finishing it off. And considering the cost of a man-o-war vs the cost of a battleship/destroyer, the ancient ships, from what I have seen, cost-effectively can sometimes hold their own against modern ships.

 

[Moulton]

That looks like the San Juan harbor. ?? Just memory, of course. I have sailed into that harbor more than a few times, but never been to Havana.

 

[Shaitan]

It finally happened to me. I lost an attacking veteran tank to an elite spearman fortified on a hill. The tank was one point down in health at the beginning of the battle and the spearman only had one left at the end (obviously, or the tank would have retreated). It so frightened my other tank commanders that they called in a cruise missile strike.

Unfortunately that's only one time so I don't meet the requirements of the challenge but I'll save this game just in case. (so long as my dog doesn't eat it )

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX
Maybe that's it, a Man of War is actually a commando unit...

Actually, the Maine was apparently destroyed by an accident. It was blamed on a Spanish seamine, but that was just an excuse the U.S. used to push Spain out of the Americas and to assert U.S. supremacy in the Western Hemisphere.

Just like the Kursk, the Maine was destroyed fighting -- nobody.

A close look at John Paul Jones is instructive. He was sailing a refitted merchant ship and caught a British Frigate downwind. He sailed directly for the Frigate. The Frigate should have just pulled off and sought a better position. But everyone knows a merchant ship can't beat a Frigate, right?

So, the British stood their ground. Before they even knew what had happened, the Bon Homme Richard (named in honor of Ben Franklin), had grappled the frigate, whose guns could not be pointed low enough to hit such a small vessal up close. When it looked as if Jones was done for, the British commander offered quarter. Jones replied, "Sir, I have not yet begun to fight."

It took several hours, but fighing in the moonlight, Jones finally took the British Frigate in fierce hand-to-hand combat and watched as the Bon Homme Richard sank into the North Sea.

http://www.usflag.org/the.serapis.flag.html

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by DarkwingGT
That has nothing to do with Civ3 combat. Unless we should worry about our units suddenly dieing from accidently blowing themselves up or something.

EDIT: IIRC, it was faulty wiring or something that caused a boiler to explode.

You are right about the cause of the Maine's demise, but IMHO wrong about its application to Civ. Anytime you put a high-explosive charge in a barrel, or store highly explosive materials next to an engine, there is a significant chance of an accident.

In Jones' case, he lost two of his cannon when they blew up. Another example is the Battleship New Jersey, which was disabled lobbing shells into the suburbs of Beirut.

That is why there is a randomizer.

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by Shaitan
It finally happened to me. I lost an attacking veteran tank to an elite spearman fortified on a hill.

Beware the lowly spearman. Beware! Beware!
http://www.crowncity.net/civ3/counterattack.htm