The Historical Basis for Catalonian Independence

[Domen]

I note that it should be no surprise that after more than 20 years of autocracy and paying to Nazi Germany and Fascist (later Democratic) Italy, opening to the Western World and promoting industry and development, as well as welcoming tourism with open arms, would imply a huge boom in Spanish economy.

Nope.

Franco really dimnished the economic development gap between Spain and Western Europe.

Compare the ratio (in percentage) of GDP per capita (PPP) of Spain to that of Britain, France, Germany (average from these three) in 1935. Then compare the ratio (in percentage) of GDP per capita (PPP) of Spain to that of Britain, France, Germany (average) in 1976. You will see the difference.

You will see that it was not only development (economic development is taking place all the time, even when leaders are very incompetent, unless there is some total catastrophy - like the one which only recently takes place in Spain, since 2007), but it was fast development - "chasing the West".

By comparison, Poland increased its economic development gap between 1939 and 1989, compared to the West - i.e. Western Europe's economy was growing faster in period 1939 - 1989 than Polish economy (even though undoubtedly Polish economy was growing during the Communist Era of 1945 - 1989).

On the other hand, Spanish economy in period 1955 - 1975 was growing faster than British, German, French economy.

So you should be happy for Franco - he was still better than the Communists on this side of the Iron Curtain.

 

[NedimNapoleon]

Being efficient at being batspit insane is not a good thing.

Well it depends on if the dictator is batcrap insane or not. Not all dictators are insane...Look at Tito and Hoxha. One was insane, the other wasn't. One built a bunker for every 4 people in the country the other built a nuclear powerplant thats still in use today.

 

[Domen]

Well it depends on if the dictator is batcrap insane or not. Not all dictators are insane...

I don't think Franco was insane. He did not get drawn into WW2 by Hitler, unlike Mussolini.

 

[Arakhor]

Julius Caesar and Augustus weren't insane; Caligula and Elagabulus not so much. Insanity is not a requirement for autocratic rule.

 

[JohannaK]

Nope.

Franco really dimnished the economic development gap between Spain and Western Europe.

Compare the ratio (in percentage) of GDP per capita (PPP) of Spain to that of Britain, France, Germany (average from these three) in 1935. Then compare the ratio (in percentage) of GDP per capita (PPP) of Spain to that of Britain, France, Germany (average) in 1976. You will see the difference.

You will see that it was not only development (economic development is taking place all the time, even when leaders are very incompetent, unless there is some total catastrophy - like the one which only recently takes place in Spain, since 2007), but it was fast development - "chasing the West".

By comparison, Poland increased its economic development gap between 1939 and 1989, compared to the West - i.e. Western Europe's economy was growing faster in period 1939 - 1989 than Polish economy (even though undoubtedly Polish economy was growing during the Communist Era of 1945 - 1989).

On the other hand, Spanish economy in period 1955 - 1975 was growing faster than British, German, French economy.

That was a gap that opened with industrialisation, when only Catalonia, the Basque Country and, to a much lesser extent, Asturias somehow kept up. If the social stability which was achieved through authoritarianism had existed in the 1930s, the same thing would have been achieved by the Republic. Spain was in a situation which had to change, and it was inevitable that it would happen at some point.

Franco's policy was autocracy, which only further impoverished Spain.

So you should be happy for Franco - he was still better than the Communists on this side of the Iron Curtain.

I am so happy to have had in power, for nearly forty years, a dictator which tried to suppress any form of distinct identity from the people he ruled over and systematically purged the country from all kinds of visible opposition!

You, sir, make me sick.

 

[Domen]

I am so happy to have had in power, for nearly forty years, a dictator which tried to suppress any form of distinct identity from the people he ruled over and systematically purged the country from all kinds of visible opposition!

Exactly the same was being done in People's Republic of Poland (PRL) by our amazing Communist authorities.

Except that it was being done for more than forty years - so for a longer period of time.

You, sir, make me sick.

You did not understand the point of my comparison.

Communist authorities also had all the disadvantages that Franco had, plus some more disadvantages.

Hence - Franco was still better than Communists. Be happy that you were ruled by Franco not by Jaruzelski and alike.

But Jaruzelski had cool glasses (lustige Brille) - only in this aspect he was better than Franco:

In the speech of Jaruzelski below, frequency of lies per statement is extremely high:


Link to video.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Being thankful for recieving the lesser of two evils is just wrong, and honestly pretty stupid.

I blame my not-so-fluent english for my disability to express myself in a non-childish way.

 

[Domen]

Considering that they had no other option to choose from apart from those two evils - I'm not so sure.

In the Spanish Civil War Franco - the lesser evil - defeated Communists - the greater evil.

Franco was also wise enough to spare Spain the horrors of World War 2.

 

[Lohrenswald]

I know, it's impossible to dislike them both and wish that a more humane movement could have arisen.

 

[Domen]

It is possible, but, you know - everyone would like to have a better car, a bigger house (or more houses), and more money.

But you still can be thankful for what you have - because your situation could be worse.

A more humane movement had arisen after Franco died and ruined Spanish economy in 2007 by their stupid policy for a building boom (it started in 1998).

Teens were dropping out of school when they were 16 years old and were starting to work in construction, earning 3,000 - 4,000 Euros monthly.

State and private investors were building, building and building... 47% of Spanish GDP in 2007 was from construction. And a housing crash came...

So - an incredibly stupid humane movement is not much better than a wise Franco...

Now they have nearly 30% unemployment rate (among young people 20 - 30 years old - 50%, in some regions - close to 60%). Now those who were earning 3,000 - 4,000 Euros per month, live for 350 - 700 Euros of dole per month. And they can't repay their loans. They are being evicted from their houses.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Thats like asking Oliver Twist (I belive it was) to be thankful he got even one serving.

That's an attitude that strikes me as apathic, and it angers me. Sorry if I'm overreacting to what you have said.

I may be stupid because I haven't taken economic classes, but if that builing woudn't have happened, wouldn't those people have been unemployed anyway? And by humane movement I don't mean capitalistic, I mean respecting human rights and so forth.

 

[Domen]

That's an attitude that strikes me as apathic, and it angers me. Sorry if I'm overreacting to what you have said.

OK. Instead of being thankful, we should complain about everything. You are right.

BTW - I always thought that complaining is a "Polish thing". Poles are supposedly famous for complaining.

I may be stupid because I haven't taken economic classes, but if that builing woudn't have happened, wouldn't those people have been unemployed anyway?

The point is that Spanish government, instead of investing in more advanced branches of economy (which however require also investing in educated cadres), invested in construction which does not require educated labour force. As the result it also neglected education.

Now Spain has 50% unemployment among young 20 - 30 years old people, most of whom only finished Grammar Schools - they have no higher education, they have no prospects, they can't find other jobs. All they can do is working as builders and there was a housing crash.

There are many "ghost towns" in Spain nowadays - unfinished settlements of blocks of flats and apartment houses. Most of them stay empty.

Building so many blocks of flats in a country which has a low population growth rate was stupid in itself.

 

[Lohrenswald]

OK. Instead of being thankful, we should complain about everything. You are right.

A bit "pushed to extremes" (google translate has become my english teatcher after joining these forums), but yes, I believe so. If it's worth complaining about, that is we can make it better, we should complain about it. And make it better, though that's a bit harder.

BTW - I always thought that complaining is a "Polish thing". Poles are supposedly famous for complaining.

All other countries opened their eyes after they recieved polish immigrants.

The point is that Spanish government, instead of investing in more advanced branches of economy (which however require also investing in educated cadres), invested in construction which does not require educated labour force. As the result it also neglected education.

Now Spain has 50% unemployment among young 20 - 30 years old people, most of whom only finished Grammar Schools - they have no higher education, they have no prospects, they can't find other jobs. All they can do is working as builders and there was a housing crash.

There are many "ghost towns" in Spain nowadays - unfinished settlements of blocks of flats and apartment houses. Most of them stay empty.

I guess that's true. "Advanced branches of the economy", eh?

Also, please finish your post to begin with rather than editing it all the time. It makes it harder to "argue" with you.

 

[JohannaK]

That's ********, Domen. Complaining is a human thing. Everything which is a [insert demonym for X country here] thing is usually something common among all of mankind.

Complaining is one thing, and being thankful is another. Obviously, I am with Lohrenswald here.

If the military had not revolted, communists wouldn't have been anywhere near total control of the government in the first place.

 

[Domen]

Ok, ok - all I wanted to say is just "Franco was not the worst thing on Earth".

All other countries opened their eyes after they recieved polish immigrants.

Unemployment in Poland would probably be almost as high as it is in Spain, if not the fact that all those people emigrated. That's thanks to our current government (in charge since 2007), which is ruining Polish industry and business, while supporting foreign-sponsored supermarkets such as Kaufland, Tesco, etc. ...

Donald Tusk - all he can do is talking about "Second Ireland" (this is already obsolete, since Ireland is in economic decline) and hugging Vladimir Putin.

When Conservative party (PiS) was in power, it was better. And that's why I support them - not because they are fanatical Catholics, etc.

Kaczynski Brothers = lesser of the two evils (when I have to choose between Kaczynski and Tusk).

But in fact there is no such political party in modern Poland, which would meet my quality requirements. There are only lesser and greater evils...

I try to vote for lesser evils all the time.

 

[JohannaK]

Of course the world has seen worth things. The rise of Communist influence outside of the military and the secret service, by the way, was more of an accident than anything else, since Stalin's directives were that the Communists should keep their influence down in order to not alarm the Western democracies.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Unemployment in Poland would probably be almost as high as it is in Spain, if not the fact that all those people emigrated. That's thanks to our current government (in charge since 2007), which is ruining Polish industry and business, while supporting foreign-sponsored supermarkets such as Kaufland, Tesco, etc. ...

Donald Tusk - all he can do is talking about "Second Ireland" (this is already obsolete, since Ireland is in economic decline) and hugging Vladimir Putin.

When Conservative party (PiS) was in power, it was better. And that's why I support them - not because they are fanatical Catholics, etc.

Kaczynski Brothers = lesser of the two evils (when I have to choose between Kaczynski and Tusk).

But in fact there is no such political party in modern Poland, which would meet my quality requirements. There are only lesser and greater evils...

I try to vote for lesser evils all the time.

1. Those things seem to be worth complaining about. And in fact you are doing it right now, and that's good.

2. Obviously you have to go along with the party system without trying to influence the parties influence yourself. (sarcasm ends here).

I know that you, as an individual, are very powerless to try to make something better yourself, and that it's also extremely hard to get in/gather a group to do it, but that doesn't mean that you should perish the thought.

Also, Franco not being the worst thing doesn't mean we should be glad for him. The one worst thing does not have a monopoly on being complained about.

EDIT: Also, why is this in the history forum?

 

[ace99]

That's thanks to our current government (in charge since 2007), which is ruining Polish industry and business, while supporting foreign-sponsored supermarkets such as Kaufland, Tesco, etc. ...

Then shouldn't you be grateful that the Russian blew them up? Sounds like they did you a favor.

 

[JohannaK]

Okay, okay, enough with the Off-Topic and back to track, please.

 

[Lohrenswald]

Okay, okay, enough with the Off-Topic and back to track, please.

The historical basis for catalonian independence?

Historically, catalans are not castillians.

Is there more neccesery to it?