Moderator Action: Wow . . . anyways, split into a new thread. Keep the Altered Maps threads for discussions of altered maps, please.
The Historical Basis for Catalonian Independence
- Thread starter JohannaK
- Start date
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
Eight pages off topic?
If they care so much let them have their state.
If they care so much let them have their state.
Then we'd have to throw up a quarantine and that would just be a hassle.Eight pages off topic?
If they care so much let them have their state.
I don't get why Catalans seem to have this... need to establish some sort of historical basis for separation from Spain. It ought to be enough - at least to me - that Catalans want to be independent and there's ample evidence of that: huge pro-independence rallies and electoral swings towards pro-independence parties.
I also think it needs to be said that all of the objections to Catalonian independence - Catalonia doesn't have a PLAN; Catalonia NEEDS Spain; Catalonia WILL be poorer because of independence; blah, blah, blah - are the same kind of objections that get thrown around whenever a new country decides to go it alone. In some cases there are problems managing the transition and aftermath but I don't see how Catalonia will suffer. It's rich, runs itself, will still be linked to Spain and the European Union through the Common Market and has the European Union to lean on if Spain starts acting prissy.
As a side note, if Spain doesn't want to let Catalonia go, that's fine. But the real question is this: if Catalonia wants to go and Spain won't budge what the hell is Spain going to do about it? It isn't like it can put tanks in downtown Barcelona and expect that to go down well internationally.
Visca Catalunya lliure and all that.
I also think it needs to be said that all of the objections to Catalonian independence - Catalonia doesn't have a PLAN; Catalonia NEEDS Spain; Catalonia WILL be poorer because of independence; blah, blah, blah - are the same kind of objections that get thrown around whenever a new country decides to go it alone. In some cases there are problems managing the transition and aftermath but I don't see how Catalonia will suffer. It's rich, runs itself, will still be linked to Spain and the European Union through the Common Market and has the European Union to lean on if Spain starts acting prissy.
As a side note, if Spain doesn't want to let Catalonia go, that's fine. But the real question is this: if Catalonia wants to go and Spain won't budge what the hell is Spain going to do about it? It isn't like it can put tanks in downtown Barcelona and expect that to go down well internationally.
Visca Catalunya lliure and all that.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
It's all about justifying our desire for independence. But yeah, in an ideal world that would not be necessary.
Lohrenswald
世界的 bottom ranked physicist
Whoever runs the government of Spain when Catalonia gets independence will probably lose the next election. They will do anything to prevent it.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
If Spain was a serious country, the men in power today would not be there, and the people who were in power yesterday neither. You are right nonetheless.
Lohrenswald
世界的 bottom ranked physicist
I'm sorry for getting a little off-topic on something that began as off-topic, but while I was in Spain I read an english-language newspaper talking about crime rates in Spain and other such issues. They had done a survey, and if I recall correctly many (spaniards) answered they thought it was part of spanish culture. I thought of this after you said "If Spain was a serious country"
Thoughts?
Thoughts?
They might be able to delay making a decision for a while but I don't think Spain (Castille) can dictate the pace of change anymore.
More seriously, Castallian culture might be conducive to crime and fascism but there's no need to lump the Catalans in with that lot.
Spain (Castille), enough said.JoanK said:
Even the Spanish (Castallians) think Spain (Castille) sucks.Lohrenswald said:
More seriously, Castallian culture might be conducive to crime and fascism but there's no need to lump the Catalans in with that lot.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Why is Catalonia not into being separate from Spain?
As long as Poland cannot into space, Catalonia cannot into No-Spain.
Seems like the last competent leader in history of Spain died already in the 16th century.
You should call genetic engineering for help and clone those guys from the Spanish Golden Age.
Charles V & I or Philip II?
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Philip II IMHO.
Domen
Misico dux Vandalorum
Well, maybe I exaggerated then. BTW - General Franco was also rather competent, despite being a dictator and enemy of democracy. He didn't draw Spain into WW2, but remained neutral, then he greatly improved Spanish economy in the 1950s - 1970s.
What's the Spanish translation of "Sonderweg"?
NedimNapoleon
Weird Little Human
Dictators have a habit of being fairly competent at what they do. Efficiency is the main advantage of being an autocratic ruler.
Generally in nations where there is ethnic/class/religious conflict, autocratic rulers are generally more competent than a democratic government, at least in terms of efficiency.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
This is the most sane post since Lohrenswald's asking about the crime thing.
(Seriously, WTH? Crime is not anything somehow inherent to any culture, and I cannot conceive how anybody, much less a typically self-gloating Spaniard, or anyone in his right mind could say such a thing.)
I note that it should be no surprise that after more than 20 years of autocracy and paying to Nazi Germany and Fascist (later Democratic) Italy, opening to the Western World and promoting industry and development, as well as welcoming tourism with open arms, would imply a huge boom in Spanish economy.
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