The Huns & Spain need to be patched!

[Rebel Fighter]

Introduction

In Civilization 5, there has always been several leaders that had a slight edge over their opponents in most situations. On the other hand, there were other leaders that were flat out handicapped in most situations severely (I'm looking at you, Ghandi ಠ_ಠ ). Still, all of the leaders were generally balanced with their own unique advantages and disadvantages. Gods & Kings, however, has crossed the line. There are 2 particular leaders that are "overpowered" (at least in multiplayer): Spain and the Huns.

[NOTE: All text in red shows what needs to be patched]

Let's get into the breakdown.

The Problem With Spain



First, here's the basics about Spain:

- - -
Leader: Isabella
Unique units: Tercio (replaces Musketman), Conquistador (replaces Knight)
Unique building: N/A
Ability: Seven Cities of Gold - bonus for discovering a Natural Wonder (bonus enhanced if first to discover it). , , and tile yields from Natural Wonders doubled.
- - -

People who haven't even used Spain yet know that her ability is mostly a hit or miss. Sometimes you'll find a lot of wonders, sometime you won't find any for quite awhile. It's a gamble. But the thing with gambling is that someone is going to eventually win the lottery, and this is where it gets game breaking. You see, when Spain finds a Natural Wonder after someone else has already found it before them, Spain gets a decent +100 . This isn't overpowered at all as Natural Wonders are Spain's only real bonus. However, if you are the first to discover a Natural Wonder, you get +500 . Hasn't sunk in yet? Let me repeat myself: +500 . That's insane. When you also consider that every map will have many Natural Wonders to find, it becomes ridiculous. On Standard or longer game speeds, this isn't too bad, but if you play on Quick, you might as well start paying the Queen taxes because you won't last much longer. If you find the Great Barrier Reef, for example, (which is the only Natural Wonder that consists of 2 adjacent tiles), you'll get +1000 if you are the first to find it because for some reason the designers thought it would be a good idea to make one Natural Wonder count as 2. Now, +1000 sounds insane for finding the 2 tiles that make up this Natural Wonder, but surely the designers wouldn't make a single tile Natural Wonder give more than +500 , right?

Right???





WRONG!!!



Remember El Dorado? Well, if Spain finds it they'll get +1000 instantly. How can other civilizations compete against that? That's the point. They can't. If you win the lottery with Spain (and winning the lottery here happens quite often), you'll be unstoppable if you're a remotely decent player. So how can this be fixed?

I believe that this can be fixed if the bonus for finding a Natural Wonder first is only +150 or +200 . Is it still a lot? Of course. Can it still break games? Possibly. But we need the amount of earned for first discovery lowered in order to balance Spain's ability. And this is the best way I see fit.

The Problem With the Huns



First, take a look at the basics of the Huns:

- - -
Leader: Attila
Unique units: Battering Ram (replaces Spearman), Horse Archer (replaces Chariot Archer)
Unique building: N/A
Ability: Scourge of God - cities at double-speed. Borrow City names from other in-game Civs. Start with Animal Husbandry technology. +1 from Pasture.
- - -

Right from the start, I'll say it straight: this civilization is not as overpowered as Spain can be. But they do have a ridiculously unfair advantage in the early game over other civilizations. Now, if you play on Singleplayer, you may not have noticed. But if you play Multiplayer, it's impossible to miss: if you play as the Huns and spawn near someone else, they have a 99% chance of not surviving a war against you. Why? Well, because the Hun's unique units are so powerful. Their Horse Archer, for instance, is a strong unit that is mobile and does not require Horse [strategic resources]. Let me say that again: it does NOT require Horses! Now, if it did, I wouldn't mind it much. It would be fairly balanced. But because it doesn't, it's really powerful. However, the Horse Archer alone isn't enough to warrant it an "overpowered" civilization. Oh no, there is another, more dangerous unique unit that the Huns have: the Battering Ram (which for some odd reason replaces the Spearman, making it available even earlier than say, a Catapult). Although quite primitive in design, it packs a huge punch against cities. While it is a siege unit, it can actually melee attack against cities. Yes, that's right. It can melee attack. I know it makes sense when considering its use in real warfare back in the day, but giving it a 300% bonus against cities as well (vs. the normal 200% that ranged siege units get) makes it way too powerful (not to mention the Cover bonus it has vs. enemy fire from ranged units). If you can manage to get 2 Battering Rams and a couple of Horse Archers early on, you're almost assured a victory against your nearest opponent.

And if an enemy Hun rush has ever happened to you in Multiplayer, I'm sure you know the feeling.



So how can this be fixed? Simple. Make the Horse Archer replace the Horsemen instead. That way, at least you'll be limited to how many you can make. As for the Battering Ram, lower its bonus vs. cities down to 200% instead of keeping it at 300% and/or make it replace the Catapult rather than the Spearman (this way other civilizations will have a chance). I'm sure these little changes will go a long way in keeping balance among the leaders.

TL;DR Conclusion

I think the Huns and Spain are overpowered and need fixing! So get to it, Firaxis!

Also,



Y U NO FIX CIV 5 MULTIPLAYER CRASHES?!

 

[Gucumatz]

Introduction

In Civilization 5, there has always been several leaders that had a slight edge over their opponents in most situations. On the other hand, there were other leaders that were flat out handicapped in most situations severely (I'm looking at you, Ghandi ಠ_ಠ ). Still, all of the leaders were generally balanced with their own unique advantages and disadvantages. Gods & Kings, however, has crossed the line. There are 2 particular leaders that are "overpowered" (at least in multiplayer): Spain and the Huns.

[NOTE: All text in red shows what needs to be patched]

Let's get into the breakdown.

The Problem With Spain



First, here's the basics about Spain:

- - -
Leader: Isabella
Unique units: Tercio (replaces Musketman), Conquistador (replaces Knight)
Unique building: N/A
Ability: Seven Cities of Gold - bonus for discovering a Natural Wonder (bonus enhanced if first to discover it). , , and tile yields from Natural Wonders doubled.
- - -

People who haven't even used Spain yet know that her ability is mostly a hit or miss. Sometimes you'll find a lot of wonders, sometime you won't find any for quite awhile. It's a gamble. But the thing with gambling is that someone is going to eventually win the lottery, and this is where it gets game breaking. You see, when Spain finds a Natural Wonder after someone else has already found it before them, Spain gets a decent +100 . This isn't overpowered at all as Natural Wonders are Spain's only real bonus. However, if you are the first to discover a Natural Wonder, you get +500 . Hasn't sunk in yet? Let me repeat myself: +500 . That's insane. When you also consider that every map will have many Natural Wonders to find, it becomes ridiculous. On Standard or longer game speeds, this isn't too bad, but if you play on Quick, you might as well start paying the Queen taxes because you won't last much longer. If you find the Great Barrier Reef, for example, (which is the only Natural Wonder that consists of 2 adjacent tiles), you'll get +1000 if you are the first to find it because for some reason the designers thought it would be a good idea to make one Natural Wonder count as 2. Now, +1000 sounds insane for finding the 2 tiles that make up this Natural Wonder, but surely the designers wouldn't make a single tile Natural Wonder give more than +500 , right?

Right???





WRONG!!!



Remember El Dorado? Well, if Spain finds it they'll get +1000 instantly. How can other civilizations compete against that? That's the point. They can't. If you win the lottery with Spain (and winning the lottery here happens quite often), you'll be unstoppable if you're a remotely decent player. So how can this be fixed?

I believe that this can be fixed if the bonus for finding a Natural Wonder first is only +150 or +200 . Is it still a lot? Of course. Can it still break games? Possibly. But we need the amount of earned for first discovery lowered in order to balance Spain's ability. And this is the best way I see fit.

The Problem With the Huns



First, take a look at the basics of the Huns:

- - -
Leader: Attila
Unique units: Battering Ram (replaces Spearman), Horse Archer (replaces Chariot Archer)
Unique building: N/A
Ability: Scourge of God - cities at double-speed. Borrow City names from other in-game Civs. Start with Animal Husbandry technology. +1 from Pasture.
- - -

Right from the start, I'll say it straight: this civilization is not as overpowered as Spain can be. But they do have a ridiculously unfair advantage in the early game over other civilizations. Now, if you play on Singleplayer, you may not have noticed. But if you play Multiplayer, it's impossible to miss: if you play as the Huns and spawn near someone else, they have a 99% chance of not surviving a war against you. Why? Well, because the Hun's unique units are so powerful. Their Horse Archer, for instance, is a strong unit that is mobile and does not require Horse [strategic resources]. Let me say that again: it does NOT require Horses! Now, if it did, I wouldn't mind it much. It would be fairly balanced. But because it doesn't, it's really powerful. However, the Horse Archer alone isn't enough to warrant it an "overpowered" civilization. Oh no, there is another, more dangerous unique unit that the Huns have: the Battering Ram (which for some odd reason replaces the Spearman, making it available even earlier than say, a Catapult). Although quite primitive in design, it packs a huge punch against cities. While it is a siege unit, it can actually melee attack against cities. Yes, that's right. It can melee attack. I know it makes sense when considering its use in real warfare back in the day, but giving it a 300% bonus against cities as well (vs. the normal 200% that ranged siege units get) makes it way too powerful (not to mention the Cover bonus it has vs. enemy fire from ranged units). If you can manage to get 2 Battering Rams and a couple of Horse Archers early on, you're almost assured a victory against your nearest opponent.

And if an enemy Hun rush has ever happened to you in Multiplayer, I'm sure you know the feeling.



So how can this be fixed? Simple. Make the Horse Archer replace the Horsemen instead. That way, at least you'll be limited to how many you can make. As for the Battering Ram, lower its bonus vs. cities down to 200% instead of keeping it at 300% and/or make it replace the Catapult rather than the Spearman (this way other civilizations will have a chance). I'm sure these little changes will go a long way in keeping balance among the leaders.

TL;DR Conclusion

I think the Huns and Spain are overpowered and need fixing! So get to it, Firaxis!

Also,



Y U NO FIX CIV 5 MULTIPLAYER CRASHES?!

A few simple fixes. Have the host of the room not allow the Huns or Spain.

Same thing can be applied to Korea and Babylon. A lot of Hosts dont allow them even if they have all DLC due to OP nature.

=======

Both are powerful - but I don't think this is the place to point it out where most people here (I would guess 85% exclusively only play singleplayer)

Horse Archers >>> Battering Rams in multi. Swarm them as they are super cheap and overwhelm any enemy. Horse Archer swarms have allowed me to crush a Japan player with a lot of crossbows, 2 cho-konhs from a city state, great wall, and pikes. Just one example. Its the ability to swarm that makes them deadly

Not sure your fixes take in consideration other aspects of the game. Sure they could need fixing, just not sure these solutions are it.

 

[Princeofnigeria]

Really? I've always found spain a little on the weak side. Sure, that occasional turn 3 second city is a problem, but not an insurmountable one. I have played against spain 6 times, 3 times with them as a neighbor, and only once did I ever find them a challenge. Your fix for the huns I also disagree on. I think a better fix would be to TAKE THEM OUT OF CIVILIZATION! THEY ARE NOT EVEN CLOSE TO WHAT ANYONE WOULD CALL A CIVILIZATION! POLYNESIA WAS MORE OF A CIVILIZATION THAN THIS BAND OF ROVING WARLORDS!... (raging complet) Anyhow, on a more serious note, I have had the huns in two of my games, never on my continent, and in both they became the strongest power. I also played as the huns once, and almost beat my record time (with huns I conquered 7 civs by 1580. With persia I won in 1400's. I got 2 uprades from ruins that turned my archer into a rifleman... In 2500... And these were my only two military wins) so I would agree the Huns need nerfing.

 

[smallfish]

I've found that Spain is extremely situational. Like I was in this multiplayer game, and the Spain player had the misfortune of discovering wonders only after everyone else did. He pulled a lot of sad faces.

 

[Monthar]

Spain was part of a DLC long before G&K was even announced. So most folks here already knew about how OP they can be if they get the lucky dice roll that game or how UP they are when they don't.

 

[nefloyd]

Holy crap how about not quoting the entire post in order to reply to it Gucumatz, its already long.

El Dorado is only unique in that it gives ANY civ that first finds it a 500 gold bonus. Spain's UA is just adding another 500. Spain gets a minimum 100 to maximum 500 gold per NW spawned on the map. It's not THAT overpowering anymore. If it's really such a concern, then just don't let anyone play as them /shrug. Not every unique ability or unit is necessarily going to be perfectly balanced for both single and multiplayer.

Don't forget rams cannot attack *anything other than* cities.

 

[Glassmage]

I disagree 100% with OP. His opinion is that Spain and Hun are broken. I think they are fine and fun to play with.

 

[PhilBowles]

Remember El Dorado? Well, if Spain finds it they'll get +1000 instantly. How can other civilizations compete against that? That's the point. They can't. If you win the lottery with Spain (and winning the lottery here happens quite often), you'll be unstoppable if you're a remotely decent player. So how can this be fixed?

I believe that this can be fixed if the bonus for finding a Natural Wonder first is only +150 or +200 . Is it still a lot? Of course. Can it still break games? Possibly. But we need the amount of earned for first discovery lowered in order to balance Spain's ability. And this is the best way I see fit.

I haven't played vs. Spain in multiplayer, but all of the above suggests you're looking in the wrong place for a fix. Is Spain overpowered if it finds El Dorado first turn? Sure. But then, so's Babylon, or India, or... 1,000 gold can be gamebreaking in the early game if it's not available to other civs, but so can 500.

First up, El Dorado and Fountain of Youth need fixing or removing - just for consistency, no other Natural Wonders offer rewards for finding them. Fine as a rule for the scenario they came from, but in the base game they shouldn't have anything other than their tile bonus.

As for the Reef, it's always been odd that you get the NW bonus twice - it seems fine to me to have a single two-tile Natural Wonder, but you only get the Wonder discovery bonus once.

In context, Spain itself doesn't appear overpowered - they get a big bonus for finding Natural Wonders, but even 500 gold doesn't go that far in the early game, much less later on. And Spain has no advantages in early exploration, let alone marine exploration, that increase its chances of being first to the NW. Spain is actually easier to exploit in single player, where the AI doesn't do much exploring, than in multiplayer (where all the other players know they're around anyway).

The Problem With the Huns



First, take a look at the basics of the Huns:

- - -
Leader: Attila
Unique units: Battering Ram (replaces Spearman), Horse Archer (replaces Chariot Archer)
Unique building: N/A
Ability: Scourge of God - cities at double-speed. Borrow City names from other in-game Civs. Start with Animal Husbandry technology. +1 from Pasture.
- - -

Right from the start, I'll say it straight: this civilization is not as overpowered as Spain can be. But they do have a ridiculously unfair advantage in the early game over other civilizations. Now, if you play on Singleplayer, you may not have noticed. But if you play Multiplayer, it's impossible to miss: if you play as the Huns and spawn near someone else, they have a 99% chance of not surviving a war against you. Why? Well, because the Hun's unique units are so powerful. Their Horse Archer, for instance, is a strong unit that is mobile and does not require Horse [strategic resources]. Let me say that again: it does NOT require Horses! Now, if it did, I wouldn't mind it much. It would be fairly balanced. But because it doesn't, it's really powerful.

No, the lack of the horse requirement is trivial - the Huns get earlier access to horses than anyone else anyway, and 4-6 horse archers is more than enough. If the Huns are going to go on their rampage, they need to attack long before they can get those numbers. It's just a faster Composite Bowman, effectively, with the drawback (from the Huns' point of view) that it doesn't fall along the same tech path as the spearman/Battering Ram (as the composite bow and spear do).

However, the Horse Archer alone isn't enough to warrant it an "overpowered" civilization. Oh no, there is another, more dangerous unique unit that the Huns have: the Battering Ram (which for some odd reason replaces the Spearman, making it available even earlier than say, a Catapult). Although quite primitive in design, it packs a huge punch against cities. While it is a siege unit, it can actually melee attack against cities. Yes, that's right. It can melee attack. I know it makes sense when considering its use in real warfare back in the day, but giving it a 300% bonus against cities as well (vs. the normal 200% that ranged siege units get) makes it way too powerful (not to mention the Cover bonus it has vs. enemy fire from ranged units). If you can manage to get 2 Battering Rams and a couple of Horse Archers early on, you're almost assured a victory against your nearest opponent.

As you say yourself: "If". If you're playing in single-player, this is easy enough. If you're playing multiplayer - and since you know the Huns are there, you know it will take them a while even with their production bonus to get this many units, and they need at least three techs to start producing both of them - you're largely to blame if you lose. If the Huns have no supporting Warriors (and to rush that early, they won't), it's easy for a single garrison unit and a spear or two to destroy two rams before a couple of horse archers can do much about it. This is the reason the ram replaces the Spearman - the Huns are great against cities in the early game, but severely disadvantaged against units (a penalty that persists throughout much of the game as they have nothing that upgrades into pikemen). If you have even a couple of hills or forests around your city, the Hun rush is very hard to execute because the time needed to get the rams through or round the offending terrain is easily enough for the garrison to destroy them or render them ineffective. And if the Huns lose the rams, no amount of horse archers will capture that city.

And if an enemy Hun rush has ever happened to you in Multiplayer, I'm sure you know the feeling.

I don't like being Persia-rushed in multiplayer (or single player) either, but that doesn't mean the Immortal needs fixing.

So how can this be fixed? Simple. Make the Horse Archer replace the Horsemen instead. That way, at least you'll be limited to how many you can make.

No, this would make the Huns' whole strategy unworkable since it requires additional tech to reach Horsemen. It also wouldn't solve any issue you're having with the Huns. You just described a rush with "a couple of horse archers" - if the Huns get even one source of horses they'll have that many.

And if they don't get horses right away, the Hun rush fails because again the timing is too constrained and their need to produce units too great for them to go around finding and settling new sources. Which is why the Horse Archer has to be horseless; otherwise executing the Hun rush becomes a matter of random chance rather than strategy.

As for the Battering Ram, lower its bonus vs. cities down to 200% instead of keeping it at 300% and/or make it replace the Catapult rather than the Spearman (this way other civilizations will have a chance). I'm sure these little changes will go a long way in keeping balance among the leaders.

It will make Attila far, far too weak. Timing is everything for the Huns - forcing them to take two further techs, and having UUs that would be more expensive, would make their strategy wholly unworkable - and if they were 'fixed' to be less timing-dependent, you lose the entire point of the civ. He's on the cusp of being slightly under the curve at the moment in my view because far too much is committed to that early rush, which makes for a novel playstyle at the start of the game but isn't really workable for a game with a 6,000 year timescale, and which is reliably beatable.

 

[Thry]

No.

I disagree with nearly everything you've posted. Spain is not as powerful as you think. 1000 gold is actually not as powerful as you think since the city state gold nerf. Even buying a Colosseum is around the ballpark of 370. With the gold bonus, getting a city state to ally with you is 500 gold.

Spain is actually very weak.

The Huns are fine.

The only reason the Huns seem OP is because of the AI's ability to understand the -33% and inability of battering rams to target units.


How to beat the Huns:

Build Horsemen. No, seriously.

Horse archers replace the horsemen, and the Huns don't have acess to spearmen. Horsemen will decimate any Hun army.

 

[rsadiwala95]

ur right about spain, i once got Krakatoa (within city range), and also Cerro de Potosi, in a single game, very near my capital (K was ~7 tiles away and potosi was ~10 tiles away), well that was +1000 and +10 per turn (add more bonus of university and sh*t), AND +20 per turn, Haha Add this to bonus of banks and Sh*t lol Science victory by about 1350 AD....yeah i wish HOF accepts DLC Civs

 

[mitsho]

Spain is overpowered, yes. But more importantly, it's hit or miss. If you get +1000 in the first few turns, you may as well stop playing, as you've won. That's probably the easiest way to beat Deity...

The Huns aren't that bad, since they can be countered with a bit of luck (terrain) and ability (archers, walls, bullying) and they depend on an ability by the Hun player as well (to build up that army quickly).

If you want balance, I would propose the Communitas mods (VEM/GEM/CIVUP/etc. ...) which balances the civs and tones down the DLC civs that are supposed to be overpowered (to make you buy them...).

 

[tommynt]

Well its same as with every civ in mp, in a good players hands lot of civs seems overpowered, in a bad hand you dont even notice the specials of the civs.

I do agreee that having a good huns close is kind of autoloose the game - as you have to build a lot of units to defend while other civs will build up.
But d I autoloose with another civ vs huns in a duel? maybe not.

And spain, it obvioulsy can give kind of headtstart, but the lack of other civ bonuses makes it fall behind later on. Also you often have to settle bad vurnable spots, GOOD opponents will exploit that and just rush these spots.

Just play vs good guys and you ll see that skill is way more important as any civ

 

[Adjuvant]

I'm really not fond of the "meme pics". I really wish people would keep that garbage out of here.

edit: on topic, I see where you're coming from on your points, but the Huns thing has been discussed to death and the general consensus is "they don't get much after that, so that's just their thing. Spain? Kinda in the same boat... I don't find their UUs to be particularly amazing. Some civs come out of the gate "screaming", some if they live long enough can/will unquestionably dominate.

 

[Louis XXIV]

I've played as Spain and haven't found a single NW first. Given that, they can easily be very underpowered. Generally speaking, if you're lucky, you'll get somewhere between 500 and 1000 gold. It's good for another city early, but not overwhelming. El Dorado won't even be in most games and, if it is, you still might not find it first.

 

[headcase]

If they want gold for exploring, Spain should get gold per hex uncovered (less per hex on larger maps, it can even go below 1 by storing the decimal), and possibly ocean hexes are worth less or no gold. If not Spain I would be interested to see a new civ with that.

The Huns would be tricky to balance without making them weak. Logically the horse archer should be available from archery instead of The Wheel, which would just make a good unit slightly better. Honestly I love harassing the AI with those horse archers... probably wouldn't like it on the receiving end. I've noticed they tend to have open starts (not a lot of hills), so that's one way Firaxis has worked to slow down their early conquest. Maybe that's only in the couple of games I've played though.

 

[Prophet Skeram]

I find Spain rather underwhelming, but that might be because I tried it 3 times and every time there were no NWs around in a 15 tile radius.

As you said: It's a lottery, so it has to be awesome if you win, because it completely sucks if you lose.

Rather than flat out nerfing Spain's UA, I would like it much more to see it "normalized", if anything.

Make it 200 gold for finding a NW and 300 for finding it first (or something around these values) - on the other hand, that might make Spain boring.

The Huns are really powerful early game, but then again: That's their only strength and early warfare has become more difficult in G&Ks because cities became stronger.

So if you spawn near the Huns in multiplayer, you have to prepare for their rush and build a lot of units early on yourself to counter them.

 

[RoadReaction]

There's nothing wrong with the huns or spain at the moment, they both have one trick at their disposal the only thing that i believe needs to be fixed is battering rams from tech ruins, but if that cant be fixed people are going to have to deal with it.

 

[Dogmouth]

Funny post, but I don't agree. All you need to do is exclude the Huns and Spain from your MP games. They're absolutely fine on SP, and they add unique flavor. Spain in particular is not OP in the vast majority of games. The Huns are only OP in SP games if you find easy to exploit sources of happiness and a nearby capital. On the other hand, I really enjoy fighting the Hun AI. The roving bands of horse archers and battering rams add a lot of color and excitement to the early game.

 

[ense7en]

No they don't.

 

[Carl5872]

I must say I disagree with your post.

I find Spain's ability to be one of the worst in the game. While under the ideal situation, it can lead to a 1,000 or 1,500 gold from early discovery with 2 amazing tiles to work, this situation is so rare it can't be relied upon for strategy. ANY civ under ideal starting conditions can be amazing.

Even if spain is first to discover 2 natural wonders, (this being a very generous scenario), that yields her 1,000 gold. This is almost enough to buy a settler on marathon (the duration I always play). In addition she does have 1 or 2 amazing tiles from the 2x natural wonder yields. While this is great early on, think if another civ would find trading their ability for it worthwhile.

Would Siam reduce the city-state favor back to normal if you offered him 1,000 gold and 2 nice tiles? I think not.

And I literally have NEVER been first to a natural wonder with her in the 3 times Ive played, always building/buying 3 scouts.

I would think if anything, her ability needs to be stronger. Or at the very least more consistent.

As for Attila, I do feel he is very strong, but not overpowered. 90% of his ability comes early on. It allows you to knock out 1-3 neighbors very early, if executed with sound tactics.

This doesn't mean it's overpowered and un-counterable. For attilla to be successful, he must have approximately 2 rams and 3-4 horse archers. A prepared defender stands a very good chance of success at this army. A poster mentioned earlier horses will shred this assault. A spear garrisoned inside a city is immune to archer fire, and can directly hit a ram when it comes in close. Also 3 archers placed in front of the city between the attackers also defends nicely. Rams cant get through units, so they are stopped by the archers, and the horse archers must trade fire with the defending archers.

If Attila's initial assault fails, he is done. For the rest of the game his only relevant benefit is +1 hammer per pasture. Because his war attempt required devotion of all to units which are now dead, he has nothing to show for his initial turns, while others have wonders, and/or buildings, and relevant soldiers.

You also must consider that it is not the total Hunnic army to measure Attila by, but the additional strength of him blitzing versus any other civ. If you can't defend against a vanilla 5-6 man rush, then Attila's rams are not relevant because you couldn't defend against 23 archers and 3 spears.

The Hunnic advantage translates into 2 main benefits.

1. Removing threats nearby, allowing you for more space to expand.
2. Acquiring capitals which are usually better cities than you could settle on your own. They often have pre-made buildings, and may even include wonders.

Keep in mind these benefits may also be gained by ANY early rush from ANY civ. For the rams/horse archers to succeed, you need a combination of 2 things from the defender.

1. Lack of tactics
2. Lack of defending soldiers

If enough of the 2 above are lacking, you won't need rams and horse archers to take the city, but 3 spears and 3 warriors should be enough.

I really like the Huns and they're fun, but I do not consider them overpowered for the above reasons.