The idiot's guide to 20k

[Spoonwood]

I know this is old, but concerning this

44 to be precise (not including techs from ToE and new era freebies). 44 techs and no SGL." you had a 10.467%=(95/100)^44 probability of getting exactly no SGLs

(assuming the probability of an SGL works as independent with respect to each tech discovery). Of course, this implies you had an 89.533% probability of getting at least one SGL. That does seem like pretty bad luck, but the expected number of SGLs 44*1/20=2.2 SGLs. We have a standard deviation of 1.45 or so for this many SGLs, so although you did have bad luck, unfortuantely your result didn't come as all too far outside the norm.

Does anyone have any tips or experience for playing Deity *pangea* 20k games? I have one going, that sort of looks promising. I have one that might work, but I feel kind of frustrated since I missed Copernicus's Observatory by one turn, when I know I *could* have had it had I not cash-rushed a cathedral or some improvement in a single turn. I also decided to SGL rush Smith's Trading Company instead of using it for Newton's University and just missed that too. I *did* pop-rush a temple in this game with Sumeria.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

The problem with high level pangea games is the tech pace leads to cascades.

Best advice I could give is play on a lower mapsize and kill all the AI before they can build stuff, play with AI's who have either ridiculously early GA's or very late (america, germany, zulu, egypt), play against expansionist AI's (with no huts), religious ones (they get short anarchy anyway). The one thing you really don't want is an AI getting a GA in the middle of the middle ages.

 

[Spoonwood]

The key trait I think here comes as the seafaring trait. Some thoughts on each seafaring tribe for the 20k:
England: They have a 60 shield pre-build on The Colossus via the granary (as opposed to 40 with most other ones). They'll have more cash for cash-rushing those buildings earlier. The instant golden age either from The Colossus either helps ensure The Oracle or The Pyramids... or *both* hand-built. You also get them in faster, which implies a faster tourist attraction, as well as a faster double culture bonus. You can also play with lower-shield starts and still win (if that's your goal), since you have the extra shields from The Colossus (so train the settler first, then The Colossus... or go The Colossus, another wonder, and then a settler after the GA finishes). Man-O-Wars could come in handy I guess also, although I don't know them all that well.
Spain-The cheap temple and cathedral, as well as the short anarchy.
Byzantines-Higher probability of SGLs, cheap library, university, and research lab, as well as free techs for the next era.
Scandinavia-Berserks can attack amphibiously, so you can fight offensively, thus increasing your probability for an MGL for that juicy Heroic Epic. Quicker promotions to elites also.
Carthage-You can research Mathematics instead of Writing and possibly trade for Writing instead if you want to pick up the tech pace. Along with this you might build the Statue of Zeus earlier since you can research Mathematics from the get-go and you have an early strong unit (provided you can get some out)... possibly even upgradable enough to an elite status fairly quickly via barbarians if you want to play more risky. You can use The Pyramids as a pre-build on The Colossus.
The Dutch-More food for faster growth *and* more shield production if you mine brown or after you have Engineering for foresting. You've also got a 60 shield pre-build on the granary. And of course...
Portugal-you've got a 60 shield pre-build on the granary, a scout which you can disband to hurry out a curragh or settler... or better still play with barbarians on sedentary. Then play starts until you pop a settler or a city in a good location. At Demi-God, you have a greater probability for a settler or a city than at (most) lower levels, and a greater probability for a settler at Deity than anywhere else (too bad you can't pop a settler from a hut on Sid). So, play until you pop a settler. Maybe you'll pop CB also, and/or BW, and a warrior for early MP. On top of this, since you have opponents at minimum, and you've got it on archipelago, you probably will have huts around the end of the ancient age to pop say Currency or Construction to get you into the middle ages faster *while* the AI doesn't pick up its research rates. Also, possibly carracks can get used to grab territory on other islands for resources or to set up specialist farms (so you can build modern age wonders) or pop more huts say for gold in the middle ages to cash-rush say a university.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

It's an interesting strategy, to aim for the despotic GA.

With that as a goal, my belief is that Carthage, with some CB SGL fishing, is probably strongest.

1) Instant pyramids is huge
2) UU is useful, though expensive
3) Industrious workers are very key to fast improvements.

Dutch are pretty key, but are really strong on very high levels, like Sid - super pikes allow invasions with feudalism, which is probably about the time you are ready to make them.

 

[Spoonwood]

I agree with your assessment of Carthage. Have you had much luck spawning an MGL off of those super pikes?

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I used the Dutch in my large sid game - if there is one thing that's true, it's that there is never any problem getting MGL's on a Sid game, if you A) don't die and B) can land a force. I've had Sid games where I couldnt' find an open tile to land forces... and Sid games where I could land 20 or so rifles, only to see them get eaten up by archers and longbows. lots of longbows....

On Demigod, you are generally better off on offense - the AI is tough, but you can take them down with AC and swords.

 

[Spoonwood]

Even on Deity, I've recently found that on small and standard maps (large maps maybe... Huge maps I think tricky), you can go curragh-settler-worker-Colossus (pre-build maybe) with a fairly good start. Start off with *maximum* reserach on Writing-Code of Laws-Philosophy-The Republic (slingshot). That has worked for me lately up to and including Deity level and probably should usually work... at least, given an 80% archipelago map. Sid level comes as a different story. Either go for the Colossus straight off, or you can try using the second city as the 20k site so you can pre-build wonders (techs cost a lot on Sid). You can bulid the Pyramids with Carthage in the second city, but it doesn't always happen... and you need the right opponents (the Celts seem to research Masonry for example).

 

[thetrooper]

What do you 20k masters think of building that cheap temple right away if you're religious? Culture doubles up pretty fast in the early game...

 

[Spoonwood]

As long as it doesn't mean you'll miss the Colossus or your first wonder, it's a *very* good idea.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

So, building culture right away is always good

Some things to think about:

- Early temple can actually HURT early research on warlord thru monarch, cause you might be spending money that you don't need. But it's not a big deal.
- If you only have 1 food bonus, getting a settler out fast might be really important, so you can get a 2nd worker source. In that case, I might build a temple later. Of course, if your only food source is a plains cow, you might build the temple first, cause you have a lot of shields and probably need time for the cap to grow to get the settler out.
- If you have several food bonuses, building the temple first can help get you up to a size where you can use them all.

Overall, I guess I would almost always build the temple fast only time where I might not is if I had 1 food bonus and there was a good 2nd one nearby. Or, of course, I got an SGL - then I'd finish off whatever I could right then and build pyramids

 

[Spoonwood]

Early temple can actually HURT early research on warlord thru monarch, cause you might be spending money that you don't need. But it's not a big deal.

I can see that to a certain extent... but I think this partially depends on how many AIs you have around. Remember, you can always sell them pottery or something for their inital 10 gold. Also, barbies make better "pets" on those levels, so you can get gold either from huts or from camps. You're right though... it *can*... I just think there's ways to offset that problem.

 

[bluejay]

I'm working on my first Deity 20K, 80% archipelago, with minimum aggression AIs. When the nearby AI gets Map Making, I assume it will come to occupy any useful spots on my island. I'm wondering about guidelines for how much armed forces I need to keep them from attacking me. (From the submitted similar saves, I see that people often have very little in the way of armed forces until sometime after 10AD.)

Any thoughts?

 

[Spoonwood]

I don't know really, but there's always dromons and bombarding anything you see. I usually try to abstain from military so I can build infrastructure and pick up my research. The Statue of Zeus can help with military matters, and with the SoZ after a while even a landing won't scare you much. What size map bluejay? Which tribe?

 

[bluejay]

I don't know really, but there's always dromons and bombarding anything you see. I usually try to abstain from military so I can build infrastructure and pick up my research. The Statue of Zeus can help with military matters, and with the SoZ after a while even a landing won't scare you much. What size map bluejay? Which tribe?

Huge, Byzantines. No ivory on my island for SoZ, and none owned by any of the tribes I've met yet.

The Ottoman island is close, within the range of a galley, so it might take quite a few dromons to hold them off.

As you say, the idea is to build infrastructure and more towns and more research, rather than building military, but with no military an invasion could be dangerous. The proper trade-off is what I'm looking for.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I wouldn't worry about it for now. What you need enough military for is to kill them when they land a sword and a horse next to your cap and declare.

I'd see the cities they plant on your land as free expansion for you

Basically, at some point in the middle ages (usually when I'm researching gunpowder or something), you'll have finished expansion and building infrastructure in a couple of cities - dial up a set of trebs and some mdi's/longbows/knights, make sure cities right near that one have some defenders, leave the cap empty and declare.

you'll get a small stack heading to your undefended cap - hit them with trebs and kill them, then go take the city.

The AI will send a galley every so often with more units.

 

[bluejay]

AutomatedTeller: Thanks for the advice on strategy. I'll see how it goes.