The idiot's guide to 20k

[archphoenix]

I suspect that it was chieftain, going off the previous question.

yes, in this thread all my games are chief.

No way. Beat 1400 (i.e. a 1395 finish) would be possible, given a very good start. ......

yes, I search my recycle bin to find the date metioned before for 14xx actually a 1475AD.

I'm following my own advice so far, I'm halfway through a very promising looking game for the gauntlet as the Byzantines.

expect your awesome date!

 

[AutomatedTeller]

btw - I did an analysis of Moonsingers fastest 20K game - 1265 AD, on warlord...

7 SGL's, built every wonder. Interestingly, not a great start - 1 cow, some flood plain - good shields, though.

 

[Tone]

I read this a while back and thought it was a great idea but I've only just got around to trying it out. I'd never played for a 20K game at Deity before this attempt and it worked out well. Sorry to bump an old thread but I thought that you might be interested in a few details so here they are.

I decided to play a Small map with the Byzantines for the SGL opportunities and set up with a couple of Rel civs, hoping for an early trade for CB.

The start I picked looked pretty good...

...but when I moved the settler off the cow, I just had to move it again as it led to the Holy Grail of 20K starts. 2 cows, a few hills and bgs but most of all only 2 coastal tiles. I later found that I'd also brought an iron hill into my capital radius.

I then explored a bit with a couple of warriors and saw that happiness was not going to be a major problem.

The only issue was a lack of food/workable tiles outside the capital and so I took the unusual step of getting three settlers out before going for the Colossus. This did hamper early culture somewhat but I decided that my research would benefit in the long run and that would bring in the SGLs.

I had the island to myself...

...but as usual on the higher levels it's a case of whether you can claim it before the AI gets to Map Making. I almost managed it but the AI did get a couple of towns. It helped that there was a massive amount of marshland, so I could clear it and the settle when I had the worker time.

In the meantime my goal was the Republic slingshot and the technical domination. I managed this and used the MoM to kick off my GA. After that the AIs were trailing in my wake. I traded my luxes which kept them happy and every 20 turns I traded a tech which helped my research and made them ven happier.

There was an awful lot of marsh and jungle to clear but I finally got it sorted around 600AD.

Shortly after this I got a flip. This doesn't happen too often in my Deity games.

However I didn't get it all my own way.

NO SGLs! I was the first to get to numerous techs. 44 to be precise (not including techs from ToE and new era freebies). 44 techs and no SGL. I can't remember playing out a HoF 20K game before without a single GL. (Did my computer know that this was my dream start and do this deliberately to spite me?)

Limited resources. I found that I had two sources of iron early on but no horses. I can live with that but the only other resource I got was a single source of coal. All that marshland and jungle. I was really hoping for rubber and/or oil to do a bit of late IA warring for MGL farming but no such luck. Still at least I did have iron and coal so I could get those rails laid without having to gift the AIs up in tech.​

A list of culture builds:

In the end I managed a finish in 1705AD-enough to beat the current #1 spot for this map size but with a bit of SGL luck it could have been so much better. If I try again, I think that I'll not have religious civs and maybe try for an earlier temple.

Thanks for this guide, sanabas. You've helped me gain my first 20K victory on Deity.

 

[azzaman333]

On a similar note, thanks to this wonderful guide I beat DemiGod, with a 1768 AD 20k win on a large map. (Spain)

Met the Aztecs early enough, and the Chinese shortly after. Got Philosophy first and got Lit for free, netting a SGL. I was almost killed by the Aztecs, when i lost my 2nd and 3rd city (at that stage i had no more than 4), but thanks to some luck i got peace, and most of my island (3 Chinese cities).

Due to some lucky settling, i ended up with every resource up to and including Rubber/Oil. I wanted to push China off my island, but they had bult the lighthouse and were clearly the most powerful.

Culture Builds;
Palace, 4000 BC
Colossus, 2190 BC
Temple, 1950 BC
Pyramids, 1725 BC (SGL)
Oracle, 1075 BC
Library, 925 BC
Mausoleum, 650 BC
Great Library, 230 BC
Hanging Gardens, 90 AD
The Wall, 310 AD
Cathedral, 360 AD
Sistene Chapel, 700 AD
University, 720 AD
Copernicus', 900 AD
Shakespear's, 1100 AD
Newton's, 1255 AD
Smith's TC, 1440 AD
ToE, 1500 AD
Uni Sufferage, 1555 AD
Hoover, 1605 AD
Intel Agency, 1655 AD
Wall Street, 1675 AD
Battlefeild Med, 1720 AD

What really shocked me in this game was how my 1/2 sized empire could so easily out-research the big Chinese empire. By early IA i was at parity in research times, after the AI was doing 4 turn in the mid to late MA, while i was doing 6-7 at best. I maintained a steady 6 turn tech pace, while China completely dropped off the pace.

Without this guide though, I probably wouldn'y have been able to achieve this feat.

 

[sanabas]

Thanks for this guide, sanabas. You've helped me gain my first 20K victory on Deity.

Without this guide though, I probably wouldn'y have been able to achieve this feat.

Glad it helped. Nice date Tone, especially without SGLs. Looks like we're swapping some #1 dates around between us this month.

Looking at your dates, you had 30 shields at size 12, which is very nice. How come you built both Bach's and Cope's before Shakespeare's? Couldn't get FA quick enough? Or problems with AI cascades? Cope's-->Shake's-->Bach's if you could do it would improve all your later builds by a couple of turns, and knock at least a few turns off the end date.

Azzaman, did you not reach the modern age in your game? Seems weird to go 50 turns past Hoover Dam without research lab or a modern wonder.

 

[azzaman333]

Azzaman, did you not reach the modern age in your game? Seems weird to go 50 turns past Hoover Dam without research lab or a modern wonder.

China and the Aztecs decided to constatly war with Arabia throughout the IA, and the Zulu, Mongols and Americans were completely useless for anything, so i had to fuel my own research (which started dragging out during the IA, due to no one having any money to spend).

I might have gotten to the Modern Age right at the end, since i can recall having built quite a lot of tanks.

 

[Tone]

Glad it helped. Nice date Tone, especially without SGLs. Looks like we're swapping some #1 dates around between us this month.

Yup. We could do with getting some better dates in some areas. I would hope that my game is not #1 for very long as it doesn't compare favourably with some of the other dates in similar catagories. Maybe someone has made a better submission already or maybe the game I'm playing now might have a bit of luck. It needs it, as the production is nowhere near as good and I don't have iron but at least I do have Ivory and I got Colossus 500 years earlier. We'll see.

Looking at your dates, you had 30 shields at size 12, which is very nice. How come you built both Bach's and Cope's before Shakespeare's? Couldn't get FA quick enough? Or problems with AI cascades? Cope's-->Shake's-->Bach's if you could do it would improve all your later builds by a couple of turns, and knock at least a few turns off the end date.

Yes, I normally head straight for FA and then pick up on the others later on but I got Sistine earlier than I had expected due to a cascade. This only left Sun Tzu, which wasn't a safe placeholder long term as Washington was a massive rival and was building it. (Washington had the Pyramids, GLHouse and another wonder IIRC.) I didn't have the cash to double check with a city investigation but I was right as Sun Tzu went quite early after I got Copers. In the meantime I needed another build whilst researching to FA. Also my research was not too good as I couldn't build too many decent towns until all that poor terrain was cleared. The massive unit support for my army of workers was paid for by the AI but I had no real income of my own to devote to science. My slider was at 100% but 100% of not a lot is, well, not a lot. Just before I got to FA, I had cleared and roaded all the terrain and my research shot up into 4/5 turners for the bottom row.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Couple of questions on 20K games, for the strategist in us all:

1) Does anyone ever pop-rush the temple? My belief is that the turns you save don't make up for the unhappiness and loss of shields/commerce you run into, which eats into your further wonders and, espeically, your science... but I don't know.

2) 20K in PTW - I assume that it is difficult to get a truly great score in PTW, because you can't easily get multiple very early MGL's, no SoZ's, Shakespeare's has reduced culture - but I don't know. Can the possibility of huge numbers of MGL's later in the game rushing wonders counteract the inability to get SoZ and an early (3000 BC) SGL for a wonder rush?

 

[superslug]

1) Does anyone ever pop-rush the temple? My belief is that the turns you save don't make up for the unhappiness and loss of shields/commerce you run into, which eats into your further wonders and, espeically, your science... but I don't know.

I've personally never even considered poprushing something in 20k. It's always been too important to me to grow the city up to the full tile coverage ASAP...

2)20K in PTW - I assume that it is difficult to get a truly great score in PTW, because you can't easily get multiple very early MGL's, no SoZ's, Shakespeare's has reduced culture - but I don't know. Can the possibility of huge numbers of MGL's later in the game rushing wonders counteract the inability to get SoZ and an early (3000 BC) SGL for a wonder rush?

It's been tried by a couple of people. The early SGL's are just too overwhelming in superiority. I don't remember if I ever submitted it, but I once was lucky enough to get two SGL's off of Philosophy and rushed the Pyramids and GLib in consecutive turns.... drool.....

 

[Tone]

I think that there are others whose comments might carry more weight here but for what it's worth, my views are...

1. Poprushing is not on the agenda as far as I'm concerned. Not that you'll actaully gain unhappiness when using 1 pop for a temple but the loss of production and commerce is not worth it IMO.

2. 20K in PtW is great fun but is never going to win any prizes. I've played a few games and submitted a couple. The last one I played as the Celts. It's #2 in 20K-Large-Regent and I finished in 1590AD. All in all not bad, but when you consider that I got 20 Great Leaders, I think that you can see that playing in C3C is the way to go if you want a number 1 slot. I repeat though, it's really enjoyable to be at war with the world and attempt to farm those MGLs so if you are looking for a bit of fun, head for one of the weaker 20K slots and give it a go.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

oh, I'm at war most of the time in a 20K game, if only to get leaders to rush small wonders. I try to cash rush regular improvements from the library on and MGL rush at least pentagon, mil academy, wall street and battlefield medicine - if I can rush heroic epic, that's great - I usually win on culture before getting to apollo.

Doesn't work well on chieftain - those poor little AI's have such crappy armies that it takes great luck to get even one leader for heroic epic!! I played 1 tiny chief game where I got heroic epic in 1320 AD, I think - only MGL of the game.

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Step 1: find a city location that is coastal, with 6 cows and reasonable shields.

this is just great. Awesome. Dude you got me there

 

[sanabas]

Couple of questions on 20K games, for the strategist in us all:

1) Does anyone ever pop-rush the temple? My belief is that the turns you save don't make up for the unhappiness and loss of shields/commerce you run into, which eats into your further wonders and, espeically, your science... but I don't know.

The temple comes too early to poprush I think. Chopping it can definitely be useful though. If I was saving my temple build until after a colossus build, I might consider it, but I don't recall ever actually doing it. I have poprushed a library on a few occasions. If I do that it's because I have spare workers to join, and usually it's because I'm short on cash, and about to revolt to republic. So I can sacrifice my MP for 2 shields to start the build, and maybe a couple of extra shields after the part-rush of 18 shields. Means it costs me 1 citizen to build a 1 turn library in despotism, rather than a 3 turn + revolt time one.

2) 20K in PTW - I assume that it is difficult to get a truly great score in PTW, because you can't easily get multiple very early MGL's, no SoZ's, Shakespeare's has reduced culture - but I don't know. Can the possibility of huge numbers of MGL's later in the game rushing wonders counteract the inability to get SoZ and an early (3000 BC) SGL for a wonder rush?

What others said. Although I haven't tested it myself, as it's been a long time since I've seen my C3 or PTW discs, so I haven't played anything but C3C for ages.

oh, I'm at war most of the time in a 20K game, if only to get leaders to rush small wonders. I try to cash rush regular improvements from the library on and MGL rush at least pentagon, mil academy, wall street and battlefield medicine - if I can rush heroic epic, that's great - I usually win on culture before getting to apollo.

Doesn't work well on chieftain - those poor little AI's have such crappy armies that it takes great luck to get even one leader for heroic epic!! I played 1 tiny chief game where I got heroic epic in 1320 AD, I think - only MGL of the game.

Depends on the level for me. Often on the lower levels I don't bother, I'll simply send my free ancient cav/crusaders out and hope they give me a leader for H. Epic. I don't worry about leader fishing after that, Wall St only takes 3-4 turns to build anyway, the others are only 1 cpt each and are all post-RR anyway, where they can't be a huge help. If i happen to get a leader, I'll use it on the small wonders, but I'm usually focused on maximum research speed. Although I remember 1 game where the tech pace was relatively slow, and I ran out of builds for a few turns before reaching the modern age. I had built Mil Academy, and so I cash-rushed a pair of armies in 2 turns so I could start the Pentagon. On the higher levels, constant war isn't that feasible, as it takes a lot of resources to run that could be better channeled towards science. Again, I'll usually try and get an MGL for Heroic Epic, but then I'll be fairly peaceful. And the rng gods, in their infinite wisdom, have been known to decide that the turn after you launch your war is the best time to give you an SGL, that you need to save for 10-15 turns to rush a good wonder with. Which means the whole point of your war can't be achieved.

Awesome. Dude you got me there

It's a foolproof method. Although that game was almost toasted by the mongols. I met them via sea, and they tried to extort me and promptly declared. Later on I realised that they actually started at the other end of my island, they were willing to talk peace only 2 or 3 turns before I was going to be in serious trouble from their attackers reaching me.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

And the rng gods, in their infinite wisdom, have been known to decide that the turn after you launch your war is the best time to give you an SGL, that you need to save for 10-15 turns to rush a good wonder with. Which means the whole point of your war can't be achieved.

Though, maybe that becomes the whole reason to go to war!! force the RNG gods to give you an SGL...

here's a question for lower level 20K's (or fast research games in general). If you can do it safely, is it better go writing->lit->CoL->philo->republic, or better to wait for lit until after you get republic? Republic cuts a lot of turns off of literature, but having libraries will cut turns off of CoL and Philo.

Anyone have an opinion?

 

[Beorn-eL-Feared]

Libraries this early aren't cheap, and you're probably better off pushing more settlers/workers or even barracks/swords/horses on such an early timeframe than making libs and lib prebuilds. I would not go lit first if you can afford not to.

Depending on the game settings, difficulty and starting techs, I'll either go CoL-Philo-Rep (when confident), Philo-CoL-Rep (when I'm unsure I can pull col so fast), lit first and work from there if SCI, or math-currency and get trades done before going lit (which has props to be a monopoly at that stage still).

Literature is powerful, but 80 shields are a mighty lot of them. Remember that when you go for a fast research; they DO help, but getting some extra military and trades done can make your military and political position much stronger; strong enough to overlook the earlier libraries. You will get them, and get them soon anyways.

On lowest agression settings, however, and if you are SCI, you could want to go for lib prebuilds and get lit first before col and philo. If you do it right, it should take just about the same time to get through col-philo->>rep, and benefit you right after. It's a big IF, and even then, the thought of all of those extra settlers and veteran horsemen (with food costs in mind, it's 1 for each town, really) to lay your claim to your neighboring lands itch me...

 

[sanabas]

Though, maybe that becomes the whole reason to go to war!! force the RNG gods to give you an SGL...

here's a question for lower level 20K's (or fast research games in general). If you can do it safely, is it better go writing->lit->CoL->philo->republic, or better to wait for lit until after you get republic? Republic cuts a lot of turns off of literature, but having libraries will cut turns off of CoL and Philo.

Anyone have an opinion?

The biggest reason to go straight for republic isn't to speed up research, it is to speed up growth/builds in your 20k city by removing the despotism penalty. So I will save lit until after republic. The exception to that is when I am running short on builds, due to good SGL luck. If that happens, then I will take literature before COL.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Here's a good 20K tip.

When trying a 20K game on Sid... don't put the Incans in, thinking they are expansionist and industrious. Cause they are agricultural, and they will run away with the game

Here's a question:

At what point do you start fearing scientific civs as opponents in a 20K game?

 

[superslug]

At what point do you start fearing scientific civs as opponents in a 20K game?

4000bc.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

LOL

I didn't phrase that well, did I? I meant in terms of level. Obviously, low level games, you want scientific civs so you can accelerate your research. At Sid, they are brutal opponents. Heck, about 1/2 the time you don't even get collosus if you have no scientific opponents and start right away.

They seem to work fine on demigod - do they suck on deity?

 

[sanabas]

It's not so much a case of fearing the scientific opponents, it's more a case of what levels do you build wonders fast enough that the tech pace needs boosting via the free techs of SCI civs. Emperor and below it's probably helpful to have the free techs available, deity & sid the tech pace is probably quick enough, and more importantly gifting AIs to the next age runs large risks of cascades costing you things like Newton's. Demigod probably depends how you play, I don't think there's a lot of difference either way.