the oob
Retired PTBS host
Hey yeah I forgot about that. Ha.
The Iliad
- Thread starter Bolkonski
- Start date
Hey yeah I forgot about that. Ha.
Bolkonski
Prince Bolkonsky
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
- Messages
- 382
As more than one player has pointed out double moves are allowed in this game. This was outlined and explained in the first post of this thread. This is not an issue but the question has been raised as to whether a player was able to make two moves in one turn. Further, it has been suggested that a player logged in at the turn change would appear to take two moves when they have not. I have contacted OverlordUT, who wrote the CivStats program, to ascertain if this is the case. At the time of writing I have not received a reply.
I want to be as fair as possible to all players and I will only reload the game if it is absolutely necessary. For the time being the game will continue without interruption.
Bolkonsky.
I want to be as fair as possible to all players and I will only reload the game if it is absolutely necessary. For the time being the game will continue without interruption.
Bolkonsky.
bbfrancis
Prince
Can you check saved games after my turns to verify that I didn't move 2 times.
whiplash_CDC
King
I didn't realize that double moves were allowed as it seems to me from the other games that I'm playing that a rule against it is universal. I still don't see where it is explicity mentioned that double moves are allowed, but admitadly I didn't scour all of the prior posts. Personally, I think it's a very bad idea for several reasons.
Firstly, it guarantees that each turn will go max time when players wait for the clock to nearly run out before making their moves.
Secondly, it gives an advantage to the player who can afford to plan all of their activities around the timer for the game. Maybe I'd rather be in church Sunday morning rather than jumping into a game at an optimal time to make a double move.
I'm just preaching here as I know it would not be reasonable to change rules at this point in the game. Just take it under consideration for games starting in the future.
I am totally confused by oyzar's post as we are well beyond 3700 BC.
I apeal to Bbfrancis to be more civil in his discourse and ask him to understand that I am merely reporting what I see in the game. And to realize that to take this issue to a different thread for a different game is counter-productive.
Firstly, it guarantees that each turn will go max time when players wait for the clock to nearly run out before making their moves.
Secondly, it gives an advantage to the player who can afford to plan all of their activities around the timer for the game. Maybe I'd rather be in church Sunday morning rather than jumping into a game at an optimal time to make a double move.
I'm just preaching here as I know it would not be reasonable to change rules at this point in the game. Just take it under consideration for games starting in the future.
I am totally confused by oyzar's post as we are well beyond 3700 BC.
I apeal to Bbfrancis to be more civil in his discourse and ask him to understand that I am merely reporting what I see in the game. And to realize that to take this issue to a different thread for a different game is counter-productive.
bbfrancis
Prince
You called me cheap.
How can you complain about double turning when you in fact did it yourself during war time?
How can you complain about double turning when you in fact did it yourself during war time?
bbfrancis
Prince
I lost a city... Whip must have quadrupple turned me.... 
whiplash_CDC
King
LOL, the paragraph you SHOULD HAVE quoted. How am I supposed to know which one that is. Seems like a moot point now anyway.
whiplash_CDC
King
I lost a city... Whip must have quadrupple turned me....
Do you think maybe that you lost a city because you threw all your stuff at me and ignored the threat from your other neighbor?
bbfrancis
Prince
Maybe you lost yours for same reason...
DUM DUM DUM!!!
DUM DUM DUM!!!
the oob
Retired PTBS host
Settle down people, sheesh.
WarningU2
Prince
Wow ... holy crap ... war has broken out ... both in this game and here I see!? 
I had always thought double moves were prohibited as that has become the norm in other games I have played in. Without the rule it leads to unfair and questionable manipulation of game mechanics. But you're right there is no prohibition of double moves in this game if you read the rules. I didn't realize that until now. Although I can't see any reference or previous discussion on a double move (having searched through the threads for "double"). Can you point out where it was discussed they were allowed?
Personally I think this will be a problem in future - as obviously it has already. People will work the clock and it will cause each turn to run the full amount making the game less fun for all. Can we clarify what the rules are on double moves? If they are permitted the rules should be updated as posted in the front of the thread to state that they are / they are not allowed to avoid issues like this in future. But I think this game will become a double move fest and the game will be decided by who is better at watching the clock rather than strategy, planning, tactics and diplomacy.
Just as an example from another game I am hosting ...
Double moves are prohibited during war time between opponents during the first 10 hrs of the turn. Say Germany and Russia are at war on a 20 hr timer.
Russia is attacking Germany and has the opportunity to take one of his cities.
Russia moves at 13 hrs
Germany moves at 15 hrs 30 minutes.
** new turn **
Germany signs in at 8 hrs but sees that Russia has not moved. He signs out and does not play his turn with this sign in.
Russia signs in at 9 hrs and 40 minutes and plays his turn
Germany signs in at 12 hrs and now seeing Russia has played ... plays his turn. (or you can use civ stats and check prior to checking)
** new turn **
The battle continues.
Germany signs in at 5 hrs (he's getting anxious because he's losing) but Russia has not played yet. He signs out.
** Russia does not sign in during the first 10 hrs of the turn. **
Germany signs in at 10 hrs 30 minutes sees that Russia has not signed in but is permitted legitimately to move so does and defeats the opposing force. Its a battle deciding moment.
Russia has no recourse. He failed to sign in during the first 10 hrs of the turn.
***
Any disputes are easy to resolve by referencing the logs. If no protest is made until after the logs are not available in civ stats they are null and void.
In my mind this prevents unfair game turn manipulation and allows for a little realistic out-manuvering that would take place normally on the battle field. In essense ... "snooze you lose"
I'm not saying we have to update this game ... the host wants to keep the rules simple but I think the above helps in that regard and will keep the game fun which in any game I play is always my priority. I have enough hassle at work to have it in make believe.
<Now WarningU2 steps up on soapbox>
With regard to the flame war going on here ... as pointed out in the "rules" grievances should be made privately.
In addition I personally think cross posting to another game thread to attack the character of any player is also very poor sportsmanship. Why disrupt another game with what goes on here in this?
<Now WarningU2 steps down from soapbox>
I had always thought double moves were prohibited as that has become the norm in other games I have played in. Without the rule it leads to unfair and questionable manipulation of game mechanics. But you're right there is no prohibition of double moves in this game if you read the rules. I didn't realize that until now. Although I can't see any reference or previous discussion on a double move (having searched through the threads for "double"). Can you point out where it was discussed they were allowed?
Personally I think this will be a problem in future - as obviously it has already. People will work the clock and it will cause each turn to run the full amount making the game less fun for all. Can we clarify what the rules are on double moves? If they are permitted the rules should be updated as posted in the front of the thread to state that they are / they are not allowed to avoid issues like this in future. But I think this game will become a double move fest and the game will be decided by who is better at watching the clock rather than strategy, planning, tactics and diplomacy.
Just as an example from another game I am hosting ...
Double moves are prohibited during war time between opponents during the first 10 hrs of the turn. Say Germany and Russia are at war on a 20 hr timer.
Russia is attacking Germany and has the opportunity to take one of his cities.
Russia moves at 13 hrs
Germany moves at 15 hrs 30 minutes.
** new turn **
Germany signs in at 8 hrs but sees that Russia has not moved. He signs out and does not play his turn with this sign in.
Russia signs in at 9 hrs and 40 minutes and plays his turn
Germany signs in at 12 hrs and now seeing Russia has played ... plays his turn. (or you can use civ stats and check prior to checking)
** new turn **
The battle continues.
Germany signs in at 5 hrs (he's getting anxious because he's losing) but Russia has not played yet. He signs out.
** Russia does not sign in during the first 10 hrs of the turn. **
Germany signs in at 10 hrs 30 minutes sees that Russia has not signed in but is permitted legitimately to move so does and defeats the opposing force. Its a battle deciding moment.
Russia has no recourse. He failed to sign in during the first 10 hrs of the turn.
***
Any disputes are easy to resolve by referencing the logs. If no protest is made until after the logs are not available in civ stats they are null and void.
In my mind this prevents unfair game turn manipulation and allows for a little realistic out-manuvering that would take place normally on the battle field. In essense ... "snooze you lose"
I'm not saying we have to update this game ... the host wants to keep the rules simple but I think the above helps in that regard and will keep the game fun which in any game I play is always my priority. I have enough hassle at work to have it in make believe.
<Now WarningU2 steps up on soapbox>
With regard to the flame war going on here ... as pointed out in the "rules" grievances should be made privately.
In addition I personally think cross posting to another game thread to attack the character of any player is also very poor sportsmanship. Why disrupt another game with what goes on here in this?
<Now WarningU2 steps down from soapbox>
what is so hard about reading it. Admitedly it is hidden within loads of other text but still it should be readable.
Bolkonski
Prince Bolkonsky
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
- Messages
- 382
To all players in The Iliad,
First, I have not heard from OverlordUT but having examined the situation and thought about it I am absolutely sure that no player was able to take two turns in one. So the game will continue and there will be no restart.
Second, while players may treat anyone in any way they like while in the game I would prefer that we maintain civility within the game thread. It is after all just a game and it is public. It may be read by minors. So please, everyone, make the posts as dispassionate as possible. There are bound to be altercations by the very nature of the game but there are limits to the manner in which they may be expressed in the thread.
Third, let me clear up the misunderstanding about double moves. The game was designed to have the minimum of rules for two reasons; the first was to keep the game moving and the second was to avoid policing as much as possible.
In the first post it was clearly stated:
Regular players will note that there are no rules about declarations of war before a certain date or double moves. This is deliberate in order to keep the rules simple and to avoid policing as much as possible.
Players when they signed on for the game should have read that post. It would appear that some did and some did not. That some failed to read the post is unfortunate but it is an inadequate reason to change the rules during the game. However it may have been a mistake to exclude a rule about double moves and I do not want to be inflexible. As there is no provision for changing the rules during the game the only way I think this could be done reasonably is by unanimous consent.
So, if I hear from every single player that they want me to change the rules to outlaw double moves I will do so. I will not vote myself and and the vote will be secret; players should cast their vote privately to me by PM or email. I will allow six turns for everyone to cast a vote, that is the amount of time a player may be absent from the game before being kicked. Subs may vote in lieu of the player they have temporarily replaced. Abstentions will be counted as a "no" vote. If I get one "no" vote before the expiry of six turns then I will inform all players in the thread that the vote has failed. One last point, if there is a change in the rules it cannot be retrospective.
Thank you all for your forebearance and understanding in this matter.
Bolkonsky.
First, I have not heard from OverlordUT but having examined the situation and thought about it I am absolutely sure that no player was able to take two turns in one. So the game will continue and there will be no restart.
Second, while players may treat anyone in any way they like while in the game I would prefer that we maintain civility within the game thread. It is after all just a game and it is public. It may be read by minors. So please, everyone, make the posts as dispassionate as possible. There are bound to be altercations by the very nature of the game but there are limits to the manner in which they may be expressed in the thread.
Third, let me clear up the misunderstanding about double moves. The game was designed to have the minimum of rules for two reasons; the first was to keep the game moving and the second was to avoid policing as much as possible.
In the first post it was clearly stated:
Regular players will note that there are no rules about declarations of war before a certain date or double moves. This is deliberate in order to keep the rules simple and to avoid policing as much as possible.
Players when they signed on for the game should have read that post. It would appear that some did and some did not. That some failed to read the post is unfortunate but it is an inadequate reason to change the rules during the game. However it may have been a mistake to exclude a rule about double moves and I do not want to be inflexible. As there is no provision for changing the rules during the game the only way I think this could be done reasonably is by unanimous consent.
So, if I hear from every single player that they want me to change the rules to outlaw double moves I will do so. I will not vote myself and and the vote will be secret; players should cast their vote privately to me by PM or email. I will allow six turns for everyone to cast a vote, that is the amount of time a player may be absent from the game before being kicked. Subs may vote in lieu of the player they have temporarily replaced. Abstentions will be counted as a "no" vote. If I get one "no" vote before the expiry of six turns then I will inform all players in the thread that the vote has failed. One last point, if there is a change in the rules it cannot be retrospective.
Thank you all for your forebearance and understanding in this matter.
Bolkonsky.
JMaltman
Prince
I don't think you need an official prohibition against double moves.
But it is a dirty manipulation of the specifics of the way the game must be implemented for PTBS.
So my vote is that people try to avoid double moves within reason, then complain civilly on here when people do it... so that others are warned that the person is a borderline cheater. And then that person will have difficulty getting favourable reactions from people in future in the game.
But it is a dirty manipulation of the specifics of the way the game must be implemented for PTBS.
So my vote is that people try to avoid double moves within reason, then complain civilly on here when people do it... so that others are warned that the person is a borderline cheater. And then that person will have difficulty getting favourable reactions from people in future in the game.
bbfrancis
Prince
Thanks Bolkonski for being the voice of reason.
Read the rules and get your facts straight before you accusing someone of being a cheater! This seems like common sense to me but I guess some people need a reminder. All I knew was I took over the civ that you guys couldn't get anyone else to play. I got double turned then when I did it back I got accused being a cheater.
Read the rules and get your facts straight before you accusing someone of being a cheater! This seems like common sense to me but I guess some people need a reminder. All I knew was I took over the civ that you guys couldn't get anyone else to play. I got double turned then when I did it back I got accused being a cheater.
Hmmm...on a different note:
I just had problems when logging into the game. Once I was in there was no interface, just the map, units, cities. I made my move using keyboard commands, but on exiting I had to use Alt-Q to get out of the game. Hope it didn't mess up the server.
I just had problems when logging into the game. Once I was in there was no interface, just the map, units, cities. I made my move using keyboard commands, but on exiting I had to use Alt-Q to get out of the game. Hope it didn't mess up the server.
Bolkonski
Prince Bolkonsky
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
- Messages
- 382
I just logged in and there are no problems with the game.
Alt-I will bring up the interface.
Alt-Q retires you from the game. If you log onto CivStats you will see that the AI has taken over your civ. I suggest that you log back in and reclaim your civ before the next turn otherwise you will find that the AI takes the turn for you.
I have purposely not ended my turn to allow the turn timer to run to the limit to give you time to do this.
Escape will bring up the menu allowing you to Exit in the proper manner. Alt-Q does not cause problems with the server. It is exiting to the Desktop rather than the Main Menu that seems to leave the computers connected.
Bolkonsky.
Bolkonski
Prince Bolkonsky
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
- Messages
- 382
Recently I upgraded Beyond the Sword with the latest patch on my regular gaming computer. I was surprised to find that when I took my turn in The Iliad I recevied an error message about a different version. It did not appear to affect the play. The Iliad is a Warlords game and is running on a separate server.
I upgraded BtS on the server as well and the error message disappeared. I suspect the problem was due to upgrading of the Dirct X Runtime Components but I cannot find out anything about it from the forum. If any player knows anything could they post the link here.
Suffice it to say when you log on you may get an error message and I suggest that you upgrade BtS if you have it and in all likelihood the message will go away. If you do not have BtS there is an upgrade for Direct X Runtime Components and you can find it here. I have not tried this out so use it at your own risk. You could just do nothing and it will probably be fine.
If any player has problems please let me know.
Bolkonsky.
I upgraded BtS on the server as well and the error message disappeared. I suspect the problem was due to upgrading of the Dirct X Runtime Components but I cannot find out anything about it from the forum. If any player knows anything could they post the link here.
Suffice it to say when you log on you may get an error message and I suggest that you upgrade BtS if you have it and in all likelihood the message will go away. If you do not have BtS there is an upgrade for Direct X Runtime Components and you can find it here. I have not tried this out so use it at your own risk. You could just do nothing and it will probably be fine.
If any player has problems please let me know.
Bolkonsky.
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