The Imperialistic Trait, Underrated?

[oyzar]

Noone's mentioned what I do in every IMP thread. You can 2 pop whip a settler after a turn of production.

Because you really don't want to whip before you get a granary. That said i am starting to become a huge fan of imperialistic. The snowball bonus is rather huge. No trait is better if you have a huge landmass to expand on and you are able to work alot of mines.

 

[kivanc]

Chopping or whipping will give you (epic speed) 45 hammers (after maths).

Since ALL hammers are multiplied by the bonuses, chopping 1 forest into a couthouse will give you 90 hammers.

Whipping 2 pop after a single turn of production into a courthouse will give you 180 hammers, exactly enough to complete the courthouse.

So chopping will give you 45x1.5 = 62 hammers towards a settler.Epic speed sucks like that.

ok. thanks. it's clear now.
so the method of building settler without stopping growth works OVER-perfectly with IMP trait.

so this is perfect for an early REXing. you just get the resources you need and go ahead. i generally go settle near a resource very early even if it is far away than my capital.
so with those resources, i can wonder-spam in the capital and train units/settlers/workers in the other cities at the same time.

i believe, imperialistic is not a weak trait. like many friends said, the importance is whether the player can create a sinergy with the UB&traits or not.this is common for most traits.

For ex: financial is a very good trait especially for beginners. philosophical is also a very powerful trait under experienced hands. well, one favour CE and the other favour SE. and i believe, both have sinergy with different civics.

in the first glance, philosophical seems better than imperialistic but if you would play a pure cottage economy and not a hybrid CE/SE economy with England, it would be nonsense to select Elizabeth instead of Victoria.

 

[Rusten]

Rusten - your screenshots are missing from your example, at least I can't see them.

What do you think about whipping the capital's worker and applying the overflow to a settler? If timed correctly you can whip the worker at 29/60 (2 pop whip from a size 4 capital), and get 30+ hammers of overflow. Build a settler next turn and they become 45 hammers. Switch to army on the following turn, and complete the queued settler with chopping.
I think this is useful on starts with a lot of great food tiles and not a lot of production.
When I start with fresh water corn and pigs I would improve those tiles before any mine, but with IMP I don't get the bonus for these tiles unless whipping.

Screenshots are missing because this thread (like many others) was made before the database went down earlier this year and there was no back-up.

And yes, I agree that with food-heavy starts you'll need to find some way to whip them, preferrably with workers. It's a very situational thing, but imperialistic can be leveraged very well with a starting position with a lot of commerce and production. If there's a lot of food then you could do well without it as well. Starting on a river with gold and forests available would be a very good situation--you can afford to churn out cities on all the good spots.

 

[popejubal]

@madscientist

When you play one of your RPC or one of your offline all leaders marathon games ,you'll see that João ( like all leaders ) needs a tuned strategy..... basically chop settlers + chop workers + mass army growth ( unlike the João II AI does ). The UU is meh ,but the UB is not....

His UU is the best in the game on the right maps.

On continents and New World, he's the only leader who can send troops (and settlers) overseas at Optics. Everyone else has to wait for Astronomy. Sure, he can't have trade routes with those cities and that makes the maintenance and happy/health difficult, but being able to get a 50+ turn jump on your neighbors in the race for the new world is a great asset.

 

[popejubal]

Because you really don't want to whip before you get a granary. That said i am starting to become a huge fan of imperialistic. The snowball bonus is rather huge. No trait is better if you have a huge landmass to expand on and you are able to work alot of mines.

I like whipping after I have a Granary better than I like whipping before Granary, but whipping a Settler with 2 population is absolutely killer. It means you get to actually claim those nice spots on a crowded map and it means you only have to grow your capital to size 4 instead of waiting until size 6. Since my capital often has 2 food resources and 2 other tiles that are really worth working, growing to size 4 is pretty easy while growing to size 6 is often a much bigger hurdle to jump.

Also, if you build the Great Wall, all of your XP earned in your borders and at sea (don't know why it happens at sea, but it does) is multiplied by 4 for counting as Great General points. That's a nice little trick and it's not impossible to chop out the Great Wall when your early settlers can be whipped for 2 pop instead of 3 like everyone else's.

 

[kakitadairu]

Imperialistic is a top tier trait (along with Philosophical, Industrious, Financial and Spiritual). It's better than Creative, and much, much better than Charismatic.

Leverage with constant war, get out those Great Generals.

It's the best top tier trait to complement the other top tier traits (with the exception of Industrious).

Suleiman, Victoria and Justinian are top tier leaders, and Imperialistic even makes Julius, Joao, Genghis and Charlemagne playable leaders. And of course

Augustus is a powerhouse although admittedly that's from Industrious more than Imperialistic.

Compare Victoria to Elizabeth; Vicky beats Liz hands down because Imperialistic synergizes with FIN while PHI has no synergy at all.

Cheers,

Dai

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It's a good trait, but MUCH MUCH better than CHA?

I dunno...+2 free early on is a pretty big deal...IMO. The promos ain't bad either.

 

[mrt144]

It's a good trait, but MUCH MUCH better than CHA?

I dunno...+2 free early on is a pretty big deal...IMO. The promos ain't bad either.

I agree with this whole heartedly. In regards to discussions about vertical vs. horizontal expansion, charismatic allows both by incentivizing a really cheap culture producing building and also expanding the happy caps +2. Early on the cap that limits your growth is happiness given that Fur, Gold, Silver, Ivory, Gems are the happy inducing early game resources. If a neighbor has stonehenge they easily become the first target and all their cities you conquer up until astronomy will get a monument.

The culture production allows you expand outwards while the raised cap allows you to expand upward. The bonus to experience allows better and more conquest from the start.

Imperialistic on the other hand allows horizontal expansion and better soldiers after at least 1 conquest.

Charisma, for me, is one of the best if not THE best trait in the game.

 

[slobberinbear]

I like Imperialistic -- I just wish I could expand as fast as the Imperialistic AIs do!

Cathy is probably the best of the Imperialistic group from a REX perspective. Nobody can get out settlers and block out land like her. And she starts with Hunting / scouts too, so she can find the AIs and all the good spots quicker. And then Creative's cheap libaries kick in so she can SE herself out of her financial hellhole. Good times.

Militarily, Cyrus is incredible. Numerous settled GGs stacking with Charismatic's low-xp thresholds? WOW. By mid-game your military production city could easily be pumping out level 5 units from scratch (that's 13 xp -- barracks, vassalage, theocracy, three settled GGs). Four promotions to sling around on every unit! Just think what that could do for siege weapons alone! Cyrus does need some economic help, though -- although Charismatic's +2 happiness helps with vertical growth to work a few extra tiles or specialists.

And then there's Charlemagne -- once he settles, he's very hard to dislodge with his protective archers and gunpowder units and cheap walls.

 

[mrt144]

I like Imperialistic -- I just wish I could expand as fast as the Imperialistic AIs do!

Cathy is probably the best of the Imperialistic group from a REX perspective. Nobody can get out settlers and block out land like her. And she starts with Hunting / scouts too, so she can find the AIs and all the good spots quicker. And then Creative's cheap libaries kick in so she can SE herself out of her financial hellhole. Good times.

Militarily, Cyrus is incredible. Numerous settled GGs stacking with Charismatic's low-xp thresholds? WOW. By mid-game your military production city could easily be pumping out level 5 units from scratch (that's 13 xp -- barracks, vassalage, theocracy, three settled GGs). Four promotions to sling around on every unit! Just think what that could do for siege weapons alone! Cyrus does need some economic help, though -- although Charismatic's +2 happiness helps with vertical growth to work a few extra tiles or specialists.

And then there's Charlemagne -- once he settles, he's very hard to dislodge with his protective archers and gunpowder units and cheap walls.

Cyrus is an absolute beast. Once you start taking over enemy capitals with settled GGs, the game progresses quickly into a giant continent land grab. In my current game I grabbed 3 Capitals for a combine 7 GGs, 2-3-2. Of those only one capital really presents itself as a production powerhouse (it has HE) besides my own capital. I have two unsettled GGs that Im waiting to use for acadmies in said captured capital and my own, and possibly will rack up a few more to use in those other cities. I'll most likely put Iron Works in the HE city and WP in my capital for level 6 ships...

 

[vicawoo]

I'll do the math later, but 2 pop whips without a granary are far less efficient than just utilizing the food bonus. And getting a granary means you're behind 60 (or 90 settler) hammers. So a 2 pop whip is ok if you need to rush a settler to beat out an AI, otherwise it's questionable.

Imperialistic whipping math: size 2 to size 4 is 24+26=50 food, and you get 60*1.5=90 hammers. You lose the settler production from your size 4 * the number of turns it takes to grow back to size 4. Assuming 2 food sources (say 6 and 4) and a plethora of hills and a grassland tile, it takes 50/8=6.25 turns to grow from size 2 to size 4. At size 4, you can work your size 6 food source and run 1 grassland mine, 2 plains mines, and get 1.5*(4*2+3+1)+1=19 hammers for settlers. You lose 19*6.25=118.75 hammers. So you're down about 30 hammers, with imperialistic. You could grow him to size 5.

Of course, if you get your settler 5 turns early, you're getting 5 turns of extra city production and you get about 6 hammers of archer production.

 

[kivanc]

I'll do the math later, but 2 pop whips without a granary are far less efficient than just utilizing the food bonus. And getting a granary means you're behind 60 (or 90 settler) hammers. So a 2 pop whip is ok if you need to rush a settler to beat out an AI, otherwise it's questionable.

Imperialistic whipping math: size 2 to size 4 is 24+26=50 food, and you get 60*1.5=90 hammers. You lose the settler production from your size 4 * the number of turns it takes to grow back to size 4. Assuming 2 food sources (say 6 and 4) and a plethora of hills and a grassland tile, it takes 50/8=6.25 turns to grow from size 2 to size 4. At size 4, you can work your size 6 food source and run 1 grassland mine, 2 plains mines, and get 1.5*(4*2+3+1)+1=19 hammers for settlers. You lose 19*6.25=118.75 hammers. So you're down about 30 hammers, with imperialistic. You could grow him to size 5.

Of course, if you get your settler 5 turns early, you're getting 5 turns of extra city production and you get about 6 hammers of archer production.

i assume your calculations are for marathon scale. and this is the efficiency case when you don't have a granary then, right?

and how would the efficiency of whipping woudl change if you were Joao?

 

[vicawoo]

No this is normal speed without a granary. It should scale with small variations. It's just that a size 4 city can produce settlers pretty.

With a granary, you only have to generate 12+13=25 food, so with the same +8 food, that's 3.25 turns, at a loss of 19*3.25=61.75 hammers, so you're up about 30 hammers settler boosted hammers, 20 normal hammers. So with joao, if you get a granary first then get a settler, you're down 10 normal hammers, but you improve after that.

 

[kivanc]

No this is normal speed without a granary. It should scale with small variations. It's just that a size 4 city can produce settlers pretty.

With a granary, you only have to generate 12+13=25 food, so with the same +8 food, that's 3.25 turns, at a loss of 19*3.25=61.75 hammers, so you're up about 30 hammers settler boosted hammers, 20 normal hammers. So with joao, if you get a granary first then get a settler, you're down 10 normal hammers, but you improve after that.

yes, thanks.

shortly, whatever method you use, whipping,chopping, first worker or first settler, you have a big advantage with IMP trait in pangaea/terra maps.
i mean maps with massive continents. and in isolated starts, imperialistic is very less useful, i agree.

if you will play in snaky continents, IMP trait seems to be less required. in snaky maps, early-founding just 1 border city may be enough to block AI passage to the land you want to settle on later. but in a pangaea map, you have to settle 5-10 cities in a circle so as to leave territory for you to settle on later.

yesterday with Victoria, marathon, monarch, large/shuffle map (i think it is pangaea), my score is nearly a double of the 2nd AI after me. and i have a clean tech lead.

i first fastly founded nearly7 cities like a large circle along my south/west/east borders, my north was ocean. and later started to fill in cities inside the circle.
now up to 500 or 1000bc, i have 9 cities with 12% land of the world. the second guy with largest territory is Joao with 7% land of the world.

i don't know, if the map is terra (i don't remember the map picture much now), 12% is even a bigger amount for 8 rivals. i think i will go up to 20% with the land i will settle later. without IMP trait i wouldn't be able to do that. and besides i have build 4 wonders in the capital on the other hand up to now. this is a good expanding. i got half of all types of resources very early this way. with the area inside my circle that i will settle later on, 3/4 types of resources are there as well.
i know this is an extra fast expanding which harms the economy and yes i just stopped researching with 0% science slider. but i have many workers to build cottages and i am building courthouses in most cities now. i think in a 20-30 turns, after most courthouses are done, i will continue researching and will start building my army. and maybe 50 turns later, i will continue expanding again.

 

[scyt4l3]

Imperialistic is my favortie military trait because it's versatile. The snowball effect is clearly there and popping lvl 5 units without any civics related to XP is simply great for warmongering. Hardened fresh troops every 1 or 2 turns...

Ships starting with blitz... mmh

 

[mboettcher]

Drill IV artillery anyone?

 

[scyt4l3]

I'll take some of that alongside my city raider lvl3 + barrage lvl X

 

[Gumbolt]

I normally build a settler straight off the bat. Come 3300bc i have a second city.

My only issue is that by 7th city and heavily rexxing your economy is crippled. Still he does rexx really fast and the pyramid or a wonder is more than possible as less chops are needed on worker/ settlers.

 

[kivanc]

I normally build a settler straight off the bat. Come 3300bc i have a second city.

My only issue is that by 7th city and heavily rexxing your economy is crippled. Still he does rexx really fast and the pyramid or a wonder is more than possible as less chops are needed on worker/ settlers.

well. it depends on difficulty and map size, you know. Having a large but also good protected territory generally results with a solid victory but in the beginning for a few centuries you have tax/science problems. But when you are strong again with your economy once again, you will not regret that much REXxing.

in my current game with Victoria, pangaea map (from shuffle), monarch diff, standart rules and #AI’s, large map; I have the largest territory and I also have 2 vassals. The tech leader and one of the strongest military in 1700s. In fact, I’ve started to increase mil strength and will be the 1st soon.

I had some maintenance/wealth problems during 1000BC. Still, I accepted Caesar’s call to fight along with him towards France. 2 more AI’s accepted Caesar’s call but practically only I fighted As a result, I captured Orleans and Rheims. And then forced De Gaulle for a peace.

Together with 2 captured cities I had 13 cities at that time. This is a very big number for between 1000BC-1AD and large map (not huge), monarch diff. I stopped researching for 60/70turns! I was still loosing 10 gpt with 100% wealth tax. But I didn’t care about it even a little. I had a few hundred golds saved from city capturing and I also took gold & tech tribute from a few AI’s.

I was ahead in tech before 1000BC, but later a few AI’s catched me but still I didn’t care. I passed all of them in tech again a few centuries later. So if you don’t get too much behind in tech and military, as a result large territory brings a huge benefit but just be patience.


Do you wonder what happened to France? France was the 2nd power after me before 1000BC and they moved to mid scores after the war in 1000BC. They never had the courage to fight me again until 1450 AD. They attacked me and I captured Lyons and Paris and finally capitalized him. He is the lowest one in score now.

 

[Komunyst_Indian]

When you play one of your RPC or one of your offline all leaders marathon games ,you'll see that João ( like all leaders ) needs a tuned strategy..... basically chop settlers + chop workers + mass army growth ( unlike the João II AI does ). The UU is meh ,but the UB is not....

hafta disagree there man... The carrack in my opinion is one of the best uus out there