The Jared Diamond discussion thread

Atropos

Beware my geekhood
Joined
Nov 29, 2005
Messages
700
Since an argument about Diamond in another thread drifted beyond the purpose of the OP, I have created a new thread in which to discuss his ideas. For those who have not read Guns, Germs and Steel, its thesis is that all important differences between human societies are the result of differences in geography.

My contention in this thread is that Diamond fails to make the case for geocentricity in history.

I intend to use the space below to quote for reference previous posts from the debate in the other thread.

Atropos said:
The worst argument I ever saw was in a book by Jared Diamond called Guns, Germs and Steel - a book which, amazingly, is actually used in university courses in anthropology.

Diamond's thesis in that work was that human development was the product of geography rather than the differing use of geography by its inhabitants. To substantiate this, Diamon was trying to prove that the Fertile Crescent was better suited to the initial development of human civilization than any place outside Eurasia. In the course of this exposition, he committed at least half a dozen gross logical errors, but the worst came when he was trying to prove that Fertile Crescent crops were better suited to cultivation than those of any other region outside Eurasia. As an example, he chose New Guinea. In his view, New Guinea has no indigenous arigable crops.

He "proved" this statement - after acknowledging that he had not in fact bothered to inspect the known data on the known plants of New Guinea to see if any of them might in fact be arigable - by reporting on a visit he made to an aboriginal campsite. He commented that he saw the aborigines using the rubbish he left behind and the gifts he gave them for every conceivable purpose. (Example: one of them was wearing a pencil as a nose ornament). He concluded that a people so ingenious could not possibly have overlooked useful crops.

Look at the beginning of Diamond's argument again. Look at it carefully, because it's obvious that he didn't.

Diamond was trying to prove that differences in development are not the result of differing ingenuity among the local inhabitants. His evidence for this was that the inhabitants of New Guinea are ingenious. In other words, the argument is completely circular.

By the way, it's also factually wrong. The biologist E. O. Wilson has shown in his book "The Diversity of Life" that New Guinea has a variety of species of legume suitable for cultivation.

CarlosMM said:
a) he did not use this as proof, but indidaction - maybe you bother to learn the difference?
b) you omit about 95% of his line of argument
c) so what if there are legumes suitable for cultivation today? The question must be whether they were suitable before comparable crops where introduced from elsewhere....


which brings me to my personal favorite of stupid argument:
The argument from misrepresentation, (intentional) misunderstanding and omission.

Most commonly used by Creationists of many colors. Shortest version: 'I do not understand how the big bang can make apes become humans, so God must have created the earth'

Atropos said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlosMM
a) he did not use this as proof, but indidaction - maybe you bother to learn the difference?
Funny, I've never heard of indidaction. Maybe you mean induction? In any case, he was wrong. Would you question that? If so, read the relevant chapter in the book I cited.
Quote:
b) you omit about 95% of his line of argument
True. Where did I say that I was citing the book's arguments in their entirety? I was referring to one example of a false argument, taken from a much more elaborate structure of arguments. That should have been clear from the original post.

Most of the rest of his argument, by the way, is equally flawed. I would be happy to discuss this in a separate thread.
Quote:
c) so what if there are legumes suitable for cultivation today? The question must be whether they were suitable before comparable crops where introduced from elsewhere....
The "supermarket bean" to which E. O. Wilson refers is indigenous to New Guinea. Again, before knocking it, read it.


Quote:
which brings me to my personal favorite of stupid argument:
The argument from misrepresentation, (intentional) misunderstanding and omission.

Most commonly used by Creationists of many colors. Shortest version: 'I do not understand how the big bang can make apes become humans, so God must have created the earth'
I, too, loathe this argument in all of its many forms. /coughs meaningfully

EDIT: By the way, before you dismiss E. O. Wilson as some right-wing fruitcake, the cited chapter is from a book on evolution whose primary purpose is a plea to save biodiversity (hence the title).
 
CarlosMM said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atropos
Funny, I've never heard of indidaction. Maybe you mean induction? In any case, he was wrong. Would you question that? If so, read the relevant chapter in the book I cited.
'Proof' means that something shows something else is true beyond any reasonable doubt.
It only inidcates something else is true if it points to it, but doubt may remain.

So Diamond did not say: 'because they used my old stuff, they must be an smart as anyone else', but said: 'they used my old stuff, which shows that it is highly unlikely that were as dumb as some people claim'.

Quite a diff, hu?

Quote:
True. Where did I say that I was citing the book's arguments in their entirety? I was referring to one example of a false argument, taken from a much more elaborate structure of arguments. That should have been clear from the original post.
You were dissmissing the entire argument based on what you think one false conclusion. That is what your posts reads like.

Quote:
Most of the rest of his argument, by the way, is equally flawed. I would be happy to discuss this in a separate thread.
Go, and PM me the link

Quote:
The "supermarket bean" to which E. O. Wilson refers is indigenous to New Guinea. Again, before knocking it, read it.
I dislike your insinuation that I did not read either of the two sources, buddy.

EDIT: re your edit:
Quote:
EDIT: By the way, before you dismiss E. O. Wilson as some right-wing fruitcake, the cited chapter is from a book on evolution whose primary purpose is a plea to save biodiversity (hence the title).
I do know who Mr. Wilson is, and I must really wonder what weird people you must be regularly dealing with if you even begin to think someone would call him a right-wing nut Or was that simply a below-the-belt stab at me?

This completes the copying from the old thread. New material follows in separate posts.
 
'Proof' means that something shows something else is true beyond any reasonable doubt.
It only inidcates something else is true if it points to it, but doubt may remain.
Yup. I contend that it is not a case of doubt. Diamond was, as E. O. Wilson showed, wrong.

It's not a question of being "true beyond a reasonable doubt." It's a question of being contradicted by the available evidence.
So Diamond did not say: 'because they used my old stuff, they must be an smart as anyone else', but said: 'they used my old stuff, which shows that it is highly unlikely that were as dumb as some people claim'.

Diamond tries to make the whole issue one of racism vs. tolerance. It isn't. The question is not whether the people of New Guinea are "dumb;" the question is whether the fact that they, in the instance Diamond cites, show interest in their surroundings demonstrates that they MUST know of any arigable crops in the vicinity. They didn't. Res ipse loquator.

You were dissmissing the entire argument based on what you think one false conclusion. That is what your posts reads like.

It's not a question of what I think. Are there arigable crops in New Guinea or aren't there? Opinion is irrelevant.

E. O. Wilson has shown that there are. Thus, in this instance, Diamond was wrong.

Consequently, a significant part of Diamond's argument, viz. the idea that only in the Fertile Crescent and a few other sites was it physically possible for agriculture to flourish, falls to the ground.


I dislike your insinuation that I did not read either of the two sources, buddy.
You previously posted that the crops to which E. O. Wilson refers might have come from outside New Guinea. Since Wilson states that they are indigenous to New Guinea, this gave me good reason to believe that you were not familiar with this particular work of Wilson's.

I do know who Mr. Wilson is, and I must really wonder what weird people you must be regularly dealing with if you even begin to think someone would call him a right-wing nut Or was that simply a below-the-belt stab at me?

I regularly deal with people on internet forums. I rest my case.

If you HAVE read the Wilson and HAVE determined some reason why the supermarket bean could not have been cultivated by the original inhabitants of New Guinea, please say so.
 
OK, lemme fetch that book (I think it is in my office) and I'll find the relevant passage you (in my eyes) mis-represent.
 
I regularly deal with people on internet forums. I rest my case.

This sentence practically disqualifies from any reasonable debate or means you have become incredibly paranoid wrt your debate partners, and prefer to insult them (if they are sane) in case they may be nuts. Great! Why should I argue with someone like you? After all, you seem more bent on preemptive strikes against strawmen than the real issues.....

:D



can we end this line of reasoning, please? I'd rather debate the issues, than throw debate-class style insults back and forth!
 
This sentence practically disqualifies from any reasonable debate or means you have become incredibly paranoid wrt your debate partners, and prefer to insult them (if they are sane) in case they may be nuts. Great! Why should I argue with someone like you? After all, you seem more bent on preemptive strikes against strawmen than the real issues.....

:D



can we end this line of reasoning, please? I'd rather debate the issues, than throw debate-class style insults back and forth!

The sentence you quoted was supposed to be a joke. Sheesh.

I reiterate that I have no reason to presume that some random guy on an internet forum knows who E. O. Wilson is. If you do, great.
 
You previously posted that the crops to which E. O. Wilson refers might have come from outside New Guinea.
Simply false - please re-read my post. I was implying that it is well possilbe that the plant in question may be 'cultivatable' today, but was not at the time other crops were introduced (e.g. due to different conditions - hu8nter/gatherers have a hard time breeding a new kind of crop, while already-farmers have better chances). And those introduced crops may have limited the interest in developing a new crop - simply said: why bother?


Now, your argument falls flat already from the start as you commit two basic mistakes, both of which Diamond addresses early on:

a) you use one single example to attack a generalization
b) you use one single example to attack the description of a system.

You also make a third mistake I already pointed out:
c) you ignore development over time.

For a): Diamond generalizes. While he says that it is unlikely that opportunities are missed, he doesn't say that it never happenes. In order to show that indignous people in NG are really less ingenious (and thus it is their fault), you'd have to show how they missed much more than one single species of bean - especially givent he fact that they did use so many other plants.

For b): one bean does not make an agricultural society - why should nayone be interested in something that has no benefit alone? You would have to show that HAVING the bean would significantly improve the situation, which is unlikely givent he fact that the people in NG were doing wuite well, thank you.

For c): as said, please show how the bean could have been developed into a super-crop (one that is obviously much better than all alternatives) even after other crops were present.
 
Overall, I find Guns, Germs, and Steel to be a well conceived book. Diamond's central premise is that food production allowed some socieities to become grand, while other societies without the great food production did not do as well. So Australian aborigines, with low food production, were left in the stone ages while Europeans with great food production, excelled. Also, not only is food production important, but also certain politics help too. The Japanese rulers ensured that the Japanese remained low tech by not using gun powder. That ensured the Japanese would be conquered by higher tech civilizations.
 
I have read this book and in my opinion Diamond tries way too hard to show that the way history unfolded had nothing to do with people, but everything to do with geography.

He also claims that putting some of the explanation with the people would be 'racist' somehow. :rolleyes:

It's a good book but the truth lies somewhere in between the two extremes, as usual.
 
Simply false - please re-read my post. I was implying that it is well possilbe that the plant in question may be 'cultivatable' today, but was not at the time other crops were introduced (e.g. due to different conditions - hu8nter/gatherers have a hard time breeding a new kind of crop, while already-farmers have better chances). And those introduced crops may have limited the interest in developing a new crop - simply said: why bother?
Diamond is addressing the initial development of agriculture, not the competition among crops after agriculture has been developed. Obviously your "why bother?" argument is the direct negation of such reasoning - if the question is "why bother?" then New Guinea is no longer at a disadvantage.


Now, your argument falls flat already from the start as you commit two basic mistakes, both of which Diamond addresses early on:

a) you use one single example to attack a generalization
b) you use one single example to attack the description of a system.
Diamond comments in his introduction that it would be incorrect to attack his idea based on any given example on the grounds that he has others. This is analogous to what some posters have recently done in their OP, arguing that no one can attack their theory except within the bounds of the theory. This makes no sense.

You want other examples? There are plenty, but here's one to start with.

Diamond argues that the physical shape of Eurasia - west to east - made it easier for civilization to develop there because the climatological conditions made it easy for crops to spread. He cites the example of wheat, which he claims flourished from Japan to Spain. This is factually inaccurate as the staple crop of the Far East was rice. Moreover, "west to east" means nothing in terms of climate. Siberia and England lie on the same latitude.

You also make a third mistake I already pointed out:
c) you ignore development over time.
How?

For a): Diamond generalizes. While he says that it is unlikely that opportunities are missed, he doesn't say that it never happenes. In order to show that indignous people in NG are really less ingenious (and thus it is their fault), you'd have to show how they missed much more than one single species of bean - especially givent he fact that they did use so many other plants.
Once again, I am not arguing that the people of New Guinea were less ingenious. I am arguing that a variety of factors affected the (non)development of "advanced" civilization on New Guinea and that geography was not the only one.

Oh, and, given that most ancient societies were monocultures (maize, rice, wheat), one crop is plenty.

For b): one bean does not make an agricultural society - why should nayone be interested in something that has no benefit alone? You would have to show that HAVING the bean would significantly improve the situation, which is unlikely givent he fact that the people in NG were doing wuite well, thank you.

"The people in NG were doing quite well, thank you" isn't Diamond's argument. He claims that civilization there was ******** by lack of viable crops. I showed that they existed. QED.

As for "one bean does not make an agricultural society" - that is exactly my point. Diamond tries to make societal development a mere matter of a plant here or a river there. He ignores the infinitely complicated factors involved. There is no need to posit any deficiency on the part of New Guineans to understand that the development of human civilization there was not simply the inevitable consequence of geography.

For c): as said, please show how the bean could have been developed into a super-crop (one that is obviously much better than all alternatives) even after other crops were present.
Irrelevant. Once again, Diamond is not arguing about the period after other crops became present. He is arguing that the need to wait until other crops were present ******** the development of New Guinean society.
 
1 - People will not become agrarian without a killer crop. Once people have become agrarian they will proceed with less productive/ more problematic crops.

2 - To become become completely sufficient on agriculture there needs to be a variety of domesticatable crops.

Therefore saying that there were potentially marginally domesticatable plants in an area is insufficient to disprove JD's thesis.
 
1 - People will not become agrarian without a killer crop. Once people have become agrarian they will proceed with less productive/ more problematic crops.
According to Wilson, the "supermarket bean" as he calls it is a "killer crop."

2 - To become become completely sufficient on agriculture there needs to be a variety of domesticatable crops.

As I said above, most ancient civilizations were monocultures or quasi-monocultures.

Therefore saying that there were potentially marginally domesticatable plants in an area is insufficient to disprove JD's thesis.
See above.
 
Diamond argues that the physical shape of Eurasia - west to east - made it easier for civilization to develop there because the climatological conditions made it easy for crops to spread. He cites the example of wheat, which he claims flourished from Japan to Spain. This is factually inaccurate as the staple crop of the Far East was rice. Moreover, "west to east" means nothing in terms of climate. Siberia and England lie on the same latitude.

Wait a minute. China has been cultivating wheat, rice and millet for millenia. Rice is mostly grown in the south and center of china, wheat in the north, where the climate is more seasonal, more suitable for wheat. "A" major staple crop was rice. It's the dominant staple crop, not "THE" staple crop.

I have to say that I'm not familiar with E.O. Wilson, and Jared Diamond Jewlers is the name of a local Jewelry store (classic, now I probably know the origin of the store's name), but I do know that China itself used many staple crops depending on the local climate, not just rice. If China used many food sources in antiquity, how can you claim that the entire Far East ate only rice?

I do buy the argument that access to abundant food is a major contributor to development of civilization, just because you can free up a larger and larger portion of your population to pursuing non-agricultural pursuits, like manufacturing and so on (which can further help agricultural productivity over time), and because famine, being less common, won't repeatedly deplete your population of potential contributors to society.

I would claim that you need more than just idle hands freed up from good agricultural production to make civilization progress, though. You also need the encouragement or incentive for progress put in place to get the best possible results out of them. I don't know if this is related to the claims in the Jared Diamond book, though.

I did see this book in the book store while I was doing some christmas shopping this weekend. I might just have to pick it up from the library and see what the hubbub is all about. I have free time for reading, now that I have dropped my efforts to win Civ IV at Emperor level. (Monarch v2.08 is an easy win. Emperor on the other hand... I can't seem to thread the needle to victory.)
 
Wait a minute. China has been cultivating wheat, rice and millet for millenia. Rice is mostly grown in the south and center of china, wheat in the north, where the climate is more seasonal, more suitable for wheat. "A" major staple crop was rice. It's the dominant staple crop, not "THE" staple crop.

I have to say that I'm not familiar with E.O. Wilson, and Jared Diamond Jewlers is the name of a local Jewelry store (classic, now I probably know the origin of the store's name), but I do know that China itself used many staple crops depending on the local climate, not just rice. If China used many food sources in antiquity, how can you claim that the entire Far East ate only rice?
Diamond claims that the spread of wheat from Spain to Japan was critical to the development of civilization. He seems to have a vision of billowing plains of wheat extending unbroken for thousands of miles. That's not how it worked - I happen to know that the staple crop in much of Spain during the Middle Ages was pasta.

I do buy the argument that access to abundant food is a major contributor to development of civilization, just because you can free up a larger and larger portion of your population to pursuing non-agricultural pursuits, like manufacturing and so on (which can further help agricultural productivity over time), and because famine, being less common, won't repeatedly deplete your population of potential contributors to society.
Sure. There's an excellent case to be made (and one which HAS been made, btw, by people other than Diamond) that the climate of the Nile was critical to the development of Egypt. In fact, it would be pretty stupid not to accept that.

Diamond takes that argument and stretches it over thousands of years and millions of square miles, to the point at which it becomes a reductio ad absurdum.
 
Diamond claims that the spread of wheat from Spain to Japan was critical to the development of civilization. He seems to have a vision of billowing plains of wheat extending unbroken for thousands of miles. That's not how it worked - I happen to know that the staple crop in much of Spain during the Middle Ages was pasta.


Sure. There's an excellent case to be made (and one which HAS been made, btw, by people other than Diamond) that the climate of the Nile was critical to the development of Egypt. In fact, it would be pretty stupid not to accept that.

Diamond takes that argument and stretches it over thousands of years and millions of square miles, to the point at which it becomes a reductio ad absurdum.
Pasta? Pasta is made from some other product, like eggs or wheat. It's not a crop at all. :crazyeye:
 
Atropos -

Im going to reread GGS and come back to you. Im fairly sure your wrong but Ill be back to you in a week or two.
 
Well, whenever you are dealing with such a broad topic as human geography where it is difficult to pinpoint sources of variation and almost impossible to perform repeatable experimentation you will run into difficulties.

I actually thought Diamond's book, while definitely not perfect, was insightfully about many things.

His crop theory may not have been perfect, but a lack of domesticable animals was likely important, and the lack of disease protection for indigenous Americans by a lack of early contact with domesticable animals was critical.

It does make sense that crops and animals can move more easily along an east-west axis than a north-south, because they share the same latitude (and therefore probably similar climates). This gives a huge advantage to a massive east-west landmass like Eurasia where ideas/food/animals can be transplanted over a much greater area and number of people.

For instance, you can't grow bananas in Helsinki.
 
Atropos, my apologies: I was (and still am) on sick leave. But today my colleague (who had also been on sick leave) was back and looked for the book for me - it is not on my office bookshelf. I must have lent it to someone, probably a friend in Berlin. I will not see her before Christmas, thus I can only check the book after that.

For Christmas, I have ordered the German version for a relative - if it is OK for you if I translate quotes back into English then I can use that copy once it arrives (supposed to be shipped within this week).
Until then, I am afraid we must postpone the discussion, as I do not have easy access to the original text.
 
Back
Top Bottom