The Jews

[IceBlaZe]

I am going to say something that probably will cause a lot of reactions... but anyhow I am going to say it.

When the jews were exiled from Israel the only thing that kept them all 'together' was religion.
Every rich dad wanted to marry his girl to the smartest jew in religion, smartest in the bible, which incase was smart generally.
And the rich dads also could afford the best hygene to their kids, so I thought, maybe because all the smart were also rich in the exiled jewish communities the death rate among babies was smaller among the babies that were born smarter.
So a few history teachers have this teacher that this is the cause to the fact that the intelligence among jews is more condensed, or atleast used to be, than in other religions.
an example for that you can find in germany before WW1:
The jews contained about 0.5% of the entire german population, but among all physics nobel prize winners were 30% jews, 60% of the leading bankers were jews, over 30% of the leading artists and poets and writers, and leaders in culture, and almost 100% of the owners of the big stores.
Also today, in Israel, a country that is full with jews, almost only jews, is also full with leading high-tech companies and start-ups, more than England and Canada together I think, 5000 start-ups for a 6 million residents country.
Israel is also the leading for optical communications, high-tech medical equipment and voice-phone cells, and solar powered system too I think, and there are many other subjects, even tho we are in continuing economic depression and constant terror.
What do YOU think about this theory, about jews being generally smarter than other religions.
Do you think It's crap, or it has something in it?

 

[Strik]

I don't think religion matters in this question?

I heard on my evolution class: that black people had an average IQ of 88, white of 100, Asian of 106 and Jews 110 there was a research done on it. Including all kinds of scientists (asian, Jews, black and white. I think it is something evolutionary. But IQ is also improved by thinking and reading. So there is an influence of education possibilities.

One advise don't get to cocky about that 110 IQ points, you would be standing on very thin ice.

 

[Mikoyan]

I thought racial biology was removed 60 years ago?

 

[Zwelgje]

Now I could write something like:
Not every Jew is smart and your post shows that I'm right.

But I'm not gonna do that because that wouldn't be nice to you and I don't want to offend you as I think you actually gave quite a lot of attention to your post.

I want to reply to you with the following:
In the past and maybe even today Jews were not accepted as employees by many companies (racism) and so the Jews were forced to pick up occupations were they wouldn't have to be dependant on a boss giving them a job or not. That's the reason why many Jews had jobs in culture, science or were entrepreneurs. This in my opinion has become tradition among Jews and that's why many of them start a new company. In other words, Jews are just as smart as all the other racial and religious groups, in history however they have learned to use their resources in a better way than other groups.

 

[IceBlaZe]

To everyone:
I didn't say all the jews are smart!
And I didn't say i honestly believe in this theory, im just raising it, I think its interesting, and its not racial because it doesnt say the jews are smarter because they are jews, it says they have a higher precentage of intelligent people because they were exiled for a long time.

civ1-addict:
During the exilation and after it, before the emancipation in europe, the only thing jews were allowed to work on was trade and commerce, the earliest form of banking.
Before the emancipation (that only acuquired throughly through europe somewhere in 1900), the jews were not allowed to take parts of any science companies, big shops, medical jobs, or anything of the high-level private business, but as soon as they got their emancipation they shot through all cannons, hitting big time in a lot of high-quality jobs such as medics and culturers (if there is any such word - lol).
Even though, even if you are right, 'using resources better' doesnt explain such a high precentage of nobel prize winners, medics, bankers, big shops owners, book writers, poets and many other similiars.

I dont think this theory is 'racial biology', because just as you can say that in a lot of cases smart kids are born to smart parents, im saying this in a bigger picture of the entire jewish community!
I didnt say that 'the jewish genes' were always better, just that through exilation they intelligence rate was getting higher and higher through a lot of time, and in Judaism, not like in other religions, they marry the rich girl to the smart person, and not the rich girl to the rich person.

Again, its not racial and it does not underestimate other religions!
I didnt say the jews equal more than others!

 

[G-Man]

There might be something true about it, as it does fit into the theory of evolution: The Jewish community was, for a long period of time, a very united community, so that other genes weren't comming in. The Jews considered the best husband an intelectual, someone that not only reads the bible but can also think about wht he reads. The smarter the men was, the more donations he got, the bigger the family he could have. So there was a situation that a smart man married the best women and had the most kids.
Anyway, this didn't last very long in terms of evoulution so it might have a minor impact, nothing more. The jobs of the people are, in my opinion, more related to the society.

 

[Benz]

Iceblaze,

You will probably prefer my opinion on this topic rather than the other one about Palestine

I don't know much about the Jew religion but, here is what I think can somewhat explain lightly what you are raising.

I think the jew religion have some values that would lead people to tend the way you describ. It is a matter of culture rather than a genetic issue.

Jews are maybe more united in their community than other group? Collective? These values maybe make them more willing to work at "lucrative" (profits?) business? Since technologie is often very profitable, it is one of their prefered choice?

Maybe personal contribution to the advance of their society is a very considered value and would explain why so many of them were scientist in Germany and earned so much recognitions?

I don't recall to see a jew murdering someone or having trouble with justice in any criminal stuff. The percentage of criminals seems lower in their community. Is there a reason? Howerver, they are like everyone else when it is about corruption and of course, this Palestine issue but, there is another topic for it.

What I am trying to say is, I beleive there is some values in their religion that can explain these particularities. It is often very subtle. There might have something like this that could explain why French tend to be a little bit more socialist, English tend to be more conservative, German tend to be more precise(spelling?).

Geography, Religion and any choices of the society can have different influences on people or a group of people. Even if a community is in minority withint another, as long as they all feel they belong to something else they all follow this line.

Each group has its strong and weak points.

There is something good and something bad to say about everyone and jews are overall neither better, nor worse than any others.

Even if I am born from catholic parents, I am laic and I do not believe in god. I see religion as a data that influence people and that's it.

 

[VoodooAce]

I believe it has everything to do with culture. How you were raised and taught.

You take a baby out of any culture right after birth, place him in another culture, and that is how he will be raised.

You take an african baby, place him in a nice well-to-do home, where education is a priority, and (if the color of his skin could be ignored by the rest of society) chances are he would grow up as a part of that family's culture, whatever it is.

Take a baby from any culture, raise him in an Islamic culture, and that baby will likely grow up Islamic. Even if the baby was born to a Jewish familly.

You take a baby from a well-to-do Asian family, that would normally grow up to get A's and go to a nice University, and later win the Nobel Prize for microbiology, stick him in a family in the middle of Watts or Skid Row, with a mother in the bedroom, puffing on a crack pipe, and a father locked up in Folsom for 25 years, and chances are good the kid will join the rest of his gang members in knocking off a burger king when he's 14 yrs old.

It's all about culture and atmosphere....imho.

Of course, the expectations that society has when the meet an African, Asian, etc., has a lot to do with it, as well, I believe, and these 'expectations' would have to be ignored for my theory to be true...

 

[Nick]

One reason for the high percentage of Jewish bankers, possibly now and certainly historically, was the attitude of mediaeval rulers to usury/moneylending. This was basically necessary for economies to develop but generally frowned upon especially for Christians so Jews (the only significantly numerous minority in Europe at the time) tended to fill the vacuum - this was often tacitly encouraged, even by ostensibly anti-Jewish groups (eg the Inquisition). Much of the development in modern anti-Semitism is rooted in this - unfortunately I've forgotten most of what I knew about this subject (mediaeval period was never my speciality anyway). But fascinating stuff and often little referred to in many books. A chap called Cohn/Coen/Cohen in his book about the Protocols of Zion devotes a bit to it in an early chapter if I remember aright.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Maybe what you all say is true, I dont really know as I dont really know about 'my' theory.
But I think it has more in it than just education, the jews were not educated to be nobel prize winners or anything like that, the opposite is true actually, there were no nobel prize winners jews before the big wave of them in germany, same thing in other private businesses, there were no successers because the emancipation only arrived in the alte 1800's, free vocations for jews only came with the emancipation.
As a nation (yes, I treat the jewish religion as an entire nation) that was always tortured by reality (Exiled, Spanish Inqusition, Racism, The holocaust, Christian Crusades, etc..) I always felt proud the the jews somehow always sticked together, and I feel proud about Israel that even tho for its continuing financial and social problems, we are always one step ahead of many others when it comes to technology, military, medicine and all that.
But thats just my jewish patriotism, and it doesnt exist because I believe in god, because I don't, it exists because the main thing that unites all the jews is that wherever they went they always suffered, and I think that after we survived all that without being totally wiped all of the jews should keep a bit of interest for their religion even if they dont believe it, it played much more of a social role in the jewish history because since almost the beggining we were weak and controlled.
I think what I said now is off topic even for the off topic but I don't really care about that

One more thing I have to say is, one of the things that really disgraced me is when the UN decided Zionism is Racism, that was one of the most racistic and anti-semitite decisions ever made in modern history, even after the sins of WW2.
After we were killed by millions in europe, era after era, after we were exiled from every community we went to, I find it hard to believe the UN and a lot of people in the world find it racism that we want to set up a country of our own.
Maybe Israel is a bit racist to other religions, but its only in favour to keep the Jewish the bigger part of the country, anti-semitism didnt end after WW2 and it still exists in many places in europe and the world even now, and if we lose the jewish ruling party even in Israel, our last resort, who knows what happens next

Thats all

 

[amadeus]

You can't define "smart" by how technical you are.

Let's look at the Mongol hordes -- how many of you know how to hunt, gather, contruct straw homes, and live in constant fear of being overrun by another tribe? Was Genghis Khan "dumb" or just technologically disadvantaged?

Saying that Jews, Christians, etc... are any smarter than anyone else is really nothing more than [religion-race-background] supremacy.

 

[IceBlaZe]

rmsharpe, the jews were not only technical, the main point of this theory is that after to process of the exilation the jews were good at all free vocations:
writers and poets too...
and that has nothing to do with technical...
and dont start to be philosophical here about whats smart and whats not, I didnt judge any other kind of intelligence or 'smartness', only you put words in my mouth, I never said the mongols are not smart, and I never said there arent any other type of smartness.
lets cut the BS, you know I know and everybody knows that good industry leaders, good medics, good physicians and good writers are smart.

 

[CurtSibling]

To Iceblaze,

Yeah sure pal, I have heard this line of thought before,

This way of thinking also states:
"different races have funny shaped skulls" and also
"jews are inferior to aryan supermen"

Unacceptable thinking!

Get yor head checked, your are veering toward racial biology here!

With this mindset will there ever be peace in the middle east?

 

[IceBlaZe]

CurtSibling:

Please read my first post THROUGHLY!
It never says ANYTHING about the Jews ALWAYS being smarter than other religion, it says that BECAUSE the rich jews marry the smart jews and because the birth rate in the rich people is HIGHER than there is a more condensed intelligent people in the JEWISH communites through the exilation.

It has nothing to do with racial biology, it has a lot to do with biology in closed communities and the effect of religion on it.

 

[PinkyGen]

The theory is interesting, but I don't think it has much merit, speaking from a biological point of view. While certain genes are confined to certain "races", such sickle-cell anemia and Tay-Sachs, I do not think this is the case with intelligence, which is far more complex.

I think that it has to deal with cultural factors. For a large while, the Jewish community was small and relatively isolated from the rest of Europe. (One reason they were not devastated from the plague was because of this seperatness.) This isolation, combined with Jewish values, I think created a culture where there is more of a stress on the need to suceed, aka the "Jewish Mother Syndrome. " The old saying "A woman must work twice as hard as a man to be half as recognized" I think helped created this.

In no way does Jewish culture hold a monopoly in this drive. One example from the top of my head would be what I call "Asian culture" (a bad term, but I lack a better phrase). I think it is just outside groups striving hard to achieve.

*insert usual disclaimer on how these are generalizations*

P.S. You can talk about differences in biology between races without being rascist (aka, sickle-cell, Taysach's, differing rates of cancer). However, I think it does begin to cross the line when one talks of intelligence.

 

[andycapp]

Originally posted by PinkyGen
However, I think it does begin to cross the line when one talks of intelligence.

I would call this understatement, however you are right PinkyGen this does cross the line and in my not so humble opinion is racist - I don't use that term lightly.

IceBlaZe, you were right to expect a reaction to your 'theory' I strongly advise you discard this theory as "crap" - not for any reason of political correctness but because it has no scientific basis, is offensive and does nothing to promote the cause of Jews.

 

[Knight-Dragon]

The Jews are just more hardworking that's all; cos their windows of opportunity are more restricted than the norm population they're submerged in due to their separateness. So they'll have to work a little harder to achieve the same goals in life as others. If you're hardworking enough, you can do anything.

Much the same can be said of the Jews of the East, the Overseas Chinese in SE Asia, and why they do much better than the natives. It's not much of culture and definitely not genetics.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Let me try and put a different light on it:
First of all, its not my theory, I'm just the one that heard it from a few history teachers and I wanted to raise it here in an enviroment that does not consist of jews only.
I'm not trying to be racist, maybe this theory is racist, sorry for that.

But this theory, is it any different than the very accepted theory in the world now:
That the afro-americans are much better in sports and generally stronger than white people because the farm owners used to 'breed' (I know its a bad term, sorry) between the strongest slaves, as a result from that the afro-americans became very strong.

Maybe you are right at one point, hard work is a part of it, but even with todays info about genetics we all know that genes also effect the potential inside you.
Some people are born with better genes to be 'strong' physically, have better potential, some people born with height genes, some with eye-problem genes, and some with genes of different kind of intelligence.

What this theory is trying to say is that because that in the closed jewish communities, for a very long time, the rich mated with the talented people in the bible, not just smart people, something above hard work.
you think Einstein (I didnt take him because he is a jew for this example... just because he is famous) got that far in physics because he 'tryed hard'?
I can give an example for that from a lot of families that the kids in it go through the same education and try as hard equally, yet in a lot of cases one brother gets much farer in the oposed subject.

Saying that the jewish got so much farer in physics and medics just because they 'tried hard', is IMHO crap.
I mean, give me a break, 0.5% of the entire german community and 30% of the physics noble prize winners, when not all the jews went to physics, as a mather of fact, less than 50% im sure, so that makes it less than 0.25% of the entire german community that is jew won a lot of noble prizes in physics, and noble prizes in physics doesnt come along just when 'you try hard', sure it has a part in it but you must have something extra that some other people that 'try hard' in physics and dont win noble prizes usually dont have, and this applies to the entire human race, and not only to the jews.

You want to tell me that achievements in physics, science, medics and high-techs will come right by 'if you try hard', try to tell that somewhere else (well say that here, democratic world, but I really dont believe it).

To the point:
Jewish Lived In Close Communities -> The Rich Had A lower death rate among born babies -> the rich jews had lower death rate among born babies -> the rich jews married their daughters to the BEST man in the bible they could find, and thats a fact -> the best man in the bible prolly didnt just try hard, he must had something other people dont have -> these 'genes' he had that made him smarter passed away to the next generation or the generation after in most cases -> more babies with these 'genes' were born and stayed alive than normal babies -> in the closed jewish community more people alive were intelligent with time than in other communities -> you mustnt forget that untill the emancipation almost no jew mixed with other religion -> the jews had higher rate of intelligent people in their community than in other communities, and that expressed right after the emancipation and today now in Israel, which is a very small country that is leading and technology and medicine.

Maybe this theory is not true, but I don't find anything racist in it, I didnt say the jews have genes other religions does not have, or that they are smarter just because they are jews, I say we have a higher rate of talented people, or at least used to have, than in other religions, because of three things:
- Jewish find the best husband as the smartest husband, not like most other communities
- Judaism was a closed community for a very long time
- Birth rate in rich families during exilation was higher, and exilation took place on a very long time.

Call it racist, if you want, its just a theory, its not something I honestly support 100%, its something I heard and read and I wanted to bring it up here, I think it has some point in it, even if its hardly true.

 

[andycapp]

This theory has about as much validity as the discredited theory of eugenics(spelling?). It is a theory (from what you have said) that proposes Jews have genetically superior intelligence to other peoples.

The arguments you put in support of this theory boil down to we have more successful people per head of population than other nations (or groups of people) - there is no valid research to support this.

You also use Israel's number of successful hi-tech enterprises as an argument which ignores the fact that the circumstances a group of people/nation face are a powerful driving force to achieve in areas that promote the survival of that group - they have nothing to do with genetically superior intellectual capabilities.

Some friendly advice IceBlaze, from someone that is usually fairly supportive of Israel and Jews, drop this theory like a hot potato it does you and other Jews no credit because the theory is racist.

 

[IceBlaZe]

Fine, I see this forum is calimed to be racist by a vast majority and a majority also finds it offensive.
As the creator of the forum ill contact a moderator about closing it down.