The Kremlin is not The Kremlin

[HermanVonPetri]

Interesting discussion, if a bit varied. Here's another perspective on the issue, though.

I have the distinct impression that if they had felt like including the Alamo (just an example) into the game wouldn't they have probably used this icon.

That's not THE Alamo; it's a chapel that only got incorporated into the Alamo after the fortifications were built. It's really called, "San Antonio de Valero". But it's the only thing left of the site today and it was the most recognizeable structure in the area. I realise that's an inside-out version of the issue y'all are talking about but it relates similarly.

And by the way, there is no set and strict definition of a planet, astronomically speaking. Many astronomers don't even believe that Pluto truly counts as a planet, but rather a "trans-Neptunian Kuiper belt object". Tarry on that one a bit

And, of course, our Moon does indeed orbit the Sun. In fact, it's primary orbit is around the Sun, not the Earth. It merely does a tiny TINY little wiggle back and forth because of the Earth's presence. If the Earth vanished a'la "Hitchhiker's Guide" the Moon would continue in it's present orbit relatively unaffected. It has often been proposed that it would indeed be better to think of the Earth/Moon pair as a double planetary system.

 

[chinesefireball]

It isn't surprising (given the state of American education) but it is absolutely pathetic that one could graduate high school not having the most basic knowledge of 20th century history.

Your implication is that people shouldn't know anything that happened before they were three. That's a sad generation coming up.

Its actually Australian education (new south wales)
We have the problem that when we have to do history (year 9 and 10) it is all Australian history - and then they focus on federation, immigration and the world wars. And then not much in the last 15 years (well there might be, but we never finished the course). I acutally had to ask my mum what apartheid was earlier this year. My parents were shoked at that.
Also with teaching history and setting syllabuses (or should that be syllabi?), the people who do that, tend to remember all these things happening - and so don't really see it as history, and therefore do not include it in the course.

So as shocking as it may seem many people my age (17) would have not heard of the USSR, apartheid, cuban missile crisis (only know that one as friends were doing it in Modern history), the first gulf war and probably wouldn't even know what the kremlin is (at the moment I'm thinking it is where the Russian parliment sits - am I right)

 

[LoopyLewis]

About the Kremlin thing - why not just rename it red square and get on with it.

Does it really matter anyway? Just play the game and enjoy yourselves

 

[TheeLord]

I wanna say you underestimate the average western person, but I fear you may be right....
Though such ignorance is probobly more prevolent here in the US then in Europe....

FREAKIN A!!! IVE PUT UP WITH IT LONG ENOUGH! What is with all the people on here insulting the intellegence of their fellow countrymen???? Freakin knock it off, its stupid and ignorant of YOU to do.. Sure there are some very ignorant people here in the US... But to be honest, Ive met lots of people from Europe who are worse than the 'average' American when it comes to world events and general geography etc.

It's just something that happens when you live in ANY priveledged society, theres gonna be people that take it all for granted and dont bother to learn about the rest of the world.. Cant do much about it, just stop pointing it out in every freakin post to make yourself sound above them.

 

[Halberd]

But to be honest, Ive met lots of people from Europe who are worse than the 'average' American when it comes to world events and general geography etc.

So in a "world" game, they choose to represent the Internet with an ex-vice president rather than - well, a nice picture of a server! - , modern great artists by Elvis (why not the Beatles?!?!), cinema = Hollywood, army base = West Point (where?), musicals = Broadway, cavalry = American Civil War cavalry... let's not forget Hoover Dam etc., Apollo Program, etc. etc. Pentagon, oh my God, it's mini-America I'm building here... as well as the representation of the units etc. (helicopters etc.)

Doesn't this suggest some sort of global myopia to you? Don't you think that it shows the rest of the world who buys this game that Americans only think about America? Don't you think that, in it's small little way, Civ is perpetuating the feeling amongst non-Amercians about the way Americans think?

Not starting one mate, but you can see what I mean?

 

[Rus guy]

It's propaganda because the color red was associated with the Bolshevik revolution, therefore the association would be that the revolution was a beautiful thing. At least that's how it was explained to me in Russian History.

It's just one of the theories. Also there is a theory that the red color on a flag of Bolsheviks is an association with blood, because the revolution was bloody.

But it may be interesting for you to know, that the name "The red square" was given in the 18th century (and it was created in 1493) - a long time BEFORE Bolsheviks... I don't know whether it was told to you or not...

 

[khakhan007]

That shouldn't be an excuse for there ignorance... sheesh u can Google for 66000 hits.. I realize most people wouldn't know the diff. But common' Should they make the Empire state Building pic be of a any ol concrete building. Hmm mabey someone should change the pic.. *good idea* now how to do that....?

 

[trotskylite]

trotskylite, yeah? And the Statue Of Liberty is a Great wonder??? The Hollywood and Broadway are wonders????

I'm just a Russian guy and I want my real Kremlin in the game

Anyway, the game is great!!

broadway, rock and roll, and the statue of liberty are all bad wonder choices as well. hollywood is questionable.

a significant portion of my ancestry is russian, so i didn't meant to slight russia at all. i just see the kremlin as out of place among things like the pyramids and the apollo program.

 

[Rik Meleet]

Moderator Action: People: please stop getting personal.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Xarlak]

So in a "world" game, they choose to represent the Internet with an ex-vice president rather than - well, a nice picture of a server! - ,

That's not cultural myopia, it's an attempt at a joke. Whether or not it's funny is a matter of personal opinion, but call it for what it is.

modern great artists by Elvis (why not the Beatles?!?!)

Because the beatles are four people, not one person?

cinema = Hollywood

Let's face it, the vast majority of cinema in the past has been Hollywood. Foreign movies are starting to make a dent (and personally, I prefer most foreign movies to most american movies), but the largest chunk is from hollywood. Going to the IMDB's list of the all time top movies at non-USA box offices, there are only two foreign movies in the top 100 (Miyazaki's two most recent movies), and only two more in the next 100 (Life is Beautiful and Mononoke Hime). At the moment, for better or for worse, Hollywood dominates the film industry.

army base = West Point (where?)

it's a military school in new york - the premiere american military school.

musicals = Broadway, cavalry = American Civil War cavalry...

I'll give you these three; they could easily have come up with better examples for musicals, military academies, and cavalry.

let's not forget Hoover Dam

Which has been replaced with a chinese dam, if you'll notice.

Apollo Program

Well, here they've got a choice between two space programs - the Apollo program and the Soyuz program (I think that's what the Russian one is called... if I'm wrong feel free to correct me). The space programs for China, Japan, and Europe are still pretty much in their infancy. Considering the Apollo program was the one to get to the moon, it seems logical to use that one over the Soyuz program.

Pentagon

Yeah, that's another that's specifically american. Not sure what else you would use there, though.

Doesn't this suggest some sort of global myopia to you? Don't you think that it shows the rest of the world who buys this game that Americans only think about America? Don't you think that, in it's small little way, Civ is perpetuating the feeling amongst non-Amercians about the way Americans think?

It's an American game - that's going to show a bit. It's got a stellar amount of non-american influence in it as it is. Would it be cool if it were global? Yes, probably. But is it understandable? Yes.

That shouldn't be an excuse for there ignorance... sheesh u can Google for 66000 hits.. I realize most people wouldn't know the diff. But common' Should they make the Empire state Building pic be of a any ol concrete building. Hmm mabey someone should change the pic.. *good idea* now how to do that....?

And if you'll notice, half the google image hits are pictures of St Basil's Cathedral instead. Many people that aren't familiar with it tend to associate the world "Kremlin" with the whole area, not just the one building, and St Basil's is the most easily recognizable part of the area.

 

[Rus guy]

broadway, rock and roll, and the statue of liberty are all bad wonder choices as well. hollywood is questionable.

a significant portion of my ancestry is russian, so i didn't meant to slight russia at all. i just see the kremlin as out of place among things like the pyramids and the apollo program.

Yeah, Kremlin - is not an ideal choise of wonder... But that's better than nothing
You've got an "Appollo Program", but USSR has send the first satellite... And there is no mention about our program "Soyuz".

People, the MAIN problem is - the choise - is not always right, but always the most POPULAR one (even if it is a mistake).

 

[Osprey]

Firaxis obviously wanted to add a whole lot more unique buildings and projects to the game. It would've been more logical to group ones like "The Kremlin" and "Oxford University" into a separate group named "Projects" or "Institutions" or something like that. I think that they kept the term "wonder" because it is a familiar term to players of these games. Sure, many of them aren't what we consider to be wonders, but they have a place in the game. It's really just the act of calling them "wonders" instead of something else that is all people really care about. Really, though, the only thing that differentiates real, historical wonders from great modern projects is that we know how the modern projects were made and so the "wonder" isn't there. Afterall, there really isn't a whole lot of difference between the Colossus of old and the Statue of Liberty, other than one is thousands of years older.

As for the other discussion going on here, Gore made his self-serving remark about taking "the initiative in creating the internet" in hopes that the many ignorant people in the U.S. wouldn't know any better and give him the credit, but he got called on it by every educated person in the country. Yes, there are many dumb people here in the States, but many people (Gore and foreigners, for example) underestimate the numbers of intelligent, well-educated people here, as well. All of the many American projects and units in the game (ex. the Apollo Program) didn't build themselves, afterall. BTW, I got a big laugh out of the Al Gore icon in the game. Someone at Firaxis has a healthy sense of humor.

 

[TheBladeRoden]

I didn't figure out the basic gist of Red Square until Ghost Recon

 

[Aurelius321]

It's an abstraction in the sense that if you show a red bricked building, few people are going to recognize what it's representing just based on the image, but if you show the spired towers of St Basil's, everyone realizes what the image is trying to convey.

Not in the sense that it represents the technically correct representation for the meaning and origin of the Kremlin, but that it represents a conceptual class of iconography of the idea being presented.

Quit being so anal retentive

Granted, the Al Gore image is more funny than a good abstraction of the Internet, but it's still an abstraction in itself and most definitely gets the (multiple) point(s) across.

Jebus

I just wanted to say that Jebus is my hero.

 

[Omnicronwarrior]

Someone in my grade was surprised when she heard their were 2 George Bush's, along with "Who the heck is Al Gore?" She also didn't know who our first president was...

 

[MCMessiah]

putting a picture of the real kremlin woudnt be recignizable to most americas that i do say.
But a picture of the walls of the kremlin would be easily recignizable, ive never seen any other place have those large dark red towers and those engravements. St. basils is however the part most recignized with the kremlin

my persoanel pet peeve is that you cna build the kremlin when you get communism ( in most of my games this tends to be in the 19th/20th century). the kremlin was around much longer than that. the Kremlin existed before moscow did . moscow grew out o the kremlin, which was originaly just a fortafication on the river. futhermoer, in teh russian spoken back then, kremlin simply ment fortification, and all cities had them, the Kremlin is simply the most famous one, and scince it was the capital of russia for such a long time that although the word disapeared the name stayed. If thhe kremlin was instead soposed to represent the communist rule, like under stalin, it would of made more sense to instead put a picutre of the red square, where stalin marched his troops and tanks all the time.

also, the argument about wheater the monuments are americanized or not;
to a certian extent. All o fthe older wonders are all non american ( i wonder why). But today we live in a american run world. What is the largest cinima produciotn place in the world? hollywood. The most famous place for musicals? broadway. what is the most famous/best ( arguably ofcrouse ) military acadamy? westpoint. What is the most famous spcae program, and which program first put a man on the moon? appolo program. also, there havent been many wonders constructed in the past 300 years or so that are not american. I think the largest factor is america being a much younger country, so any of the big or artistic buildings we make ( like the statue of liberty) quickly become symbolic, while if somehtin lke it was built in france for example, they have so many other wonders of the past that it wouldnt have the same importance.

 

[khakhan007]

Can I point out that the Statue of Liberty was a gift from France.
"The Statue of Liberty was a present from the French Republic to symbolize your friendship. Strangest of all, it was not dedicated as a national monument until 1924"
But I agree symbol for Comunism should be Red Square or the Politburo, or the KGB headquarters.

 

[GoRy]

Theres a gay club in belfast called "The Kremlin". Needless to say, I cringe when i hear the name and try to avoid it.

 

[Reveilled]

Yeah, Kremlin - is not an ideal choise of wonder... But that's better than nothing
You've got an "Appollo Program", but USSR has send the first satellite... And there is no mention about our program "Soyuz".

People, the MAIN problem is - the choise - is not always right, but always the most POPULAR one (even if it is a mistake).

Well...Sputnik is mentioned in when you discover satellites. Spock says "beep" a few times.

 

[Rus guy]

Theres a gay club in belfast called "The Kremlin". Needless to say, I cringe when i hear the name and try to avoid it.

Painful recollections, huh?