The Law of the Jungle
- Thread starter yahzuk
- Start date
christos200
Never tell me the odds
New order: Steal the above 12 gold.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
Christos, have you learnt anything at all from your experience with swimandciv?
edit: Thanks, FN, it's relieving to see there are reasonable people around here.
edit: Thanks, FN, it's relieving to see there are reasonable people around here.
OOC: Thanks for your interest in my scientific endeavor IRL. I have now printed the first complete draft of my 100-page dissertation on display technology, and I will submit it to the scrutiny of my professor tomorrow. For the remainder of the day, I will celebrate the 94-old Finland on her Independence Day. Not in the city-state of Helsinki, but a bit farther north.
Confusion abounds!
1. As a tenant, you have no choice but to toil for your landlord in the afternoon. (No matter what orders tenants send, or even if tenants neglect to send afternoon orders, tenants always automatically toil in the afternoon)
2. Caragus and Ebz are in a different location from you so you cannot attack either of them. You can attempt to steal gold from a different member of the House of Grey, except not right now because of pt #1
3. If you find being a tenant boring, then stop being a tenant! There are multiple ways to do that which you should be able to figure out without me telling you. Except you can't do any of them right now because back to pt #1.
GreyWithAnE
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2011
- Messages
- 137
Prinz/Ceskari: The monument is guaranteed to get finished by NPCs before any of our Produce actions take place, so playing produce Monument would be a waste.
We could use a Granary one of these days, though...
Confusion abounds!
1. As a tenant, you have no choice but to toil for your landlord in the afternoon. (No matter what orders tenants send, or even if tenants neglect to send afternoon orders, tenants always automatically toil in the afternoon)
2. Caragus and Ebz are in a different location from you so you cannot attack either of them. You can attempt to steal gold from a different member of the House of Grey, except not right now because of pt #1
3. If you find being a tenant boring, then stop being a tenant! There are multiple ways to do that which you should be able to figure out without me telling you. Except you can't do any of them right now because back to pt #1.
Christos, et al: Just in case there's any mystery here, the best way to not be a tenant is to move or enlist with your first action of a session, just like I did with my tenant characters. I've been generally stunned that more people haven't done this, really.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
I did when Jehoshua challenged me (and won). I was stunned too, but it is logical as they live in the best tiles, so toiling continusly for a couple of sessions is worth it.
^ Exactly. That's the only reason Tenoch hasn't moved. If the tile gets improved, I'm gone (no food to support me).
Also, forgoing RP this time, sorry.
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Tenoch toils for his landlord.
Also, forgoing RP this time, sorry.
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Tenoch toils for his landlord.
Sparthage
Fighting Tyranny
Sparthage offers 3 Wisdom to Quetzalcoatl during his Festival.
clearmurky
Emperor
I toil. Diggy Diggy Hole, Diggy Diggy Hole!
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,284
Yes and I would still be reaping the results of your toiling if it wasn't for a certain Prinz von Perzien sacrificing me. Meh, I suppose thats what experimental politics gives you
On Prinz von Perzien though, don't think I will forgive and forget
in time you may just find a nasty surprise shoved into you chest when you least suspect it.Not going to have time to formally update rules tonight, but "Adopt policy" needs to be added to the action list (as mentioned in the section on selecting social policies). Supporting the adoption of a social policy requires spending 1 or more pts of Fame.
Sounds good! This opens up vistas for debate again. Liberty, anyone?
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
On one side, we are Aztecs, our way is tha way of War and Domination, and so we should go for Honourable policies.
On the other side, we should expand as soon as possible in order to limit Spanish expansion in our homeland, and seeking some Liberty would help us there.
And mine is the way of colonisation and subtle expansionist control (over foreign powers), so I'd go for the second.
On the other side, we should expand as soon as possible in order to limit Spanish expansion in our homeland, and seeking some Liberty would help us there.
And mine is the way of colonisation and subtle expansionist control (over foreign powers), so I'd go for the second.
christos200
Never tell me the odds
Anyway. I toil.
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,284
bah, we can expand by the macuahuitl! The dastardly spaniards, the eternal enemies of Aztlan must be destroyed as a priority and honour to strengthen our warriors would grant us the strength of Huitzilopochtli in our warmongering.
Need I mention that the gods enlighten our empire with the death of sacrificial captives captured from our enemies in war increasing our culture and hastening the coming of the *spits* liberty you so desire amongst other possible social policies.
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ooc: honour is better because it will help in the utilisation of our special ability (culture with every enemy unit killed) and thus hasten the acquisition of other policies using culture gained via the usage of sacrificial captives. Besides we ARE the aztecs, regular conflict and war for sacrifices is sort of our modus operandi
(ergo barbarian killing, and lots of little wars to keep the captive flow running)
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
True! I hadn't thought about that trait of us. So I'd go for Honour.
Jehoshua
Catholic
- Joined
- Sep 25, 2009
- Messages
- 7,284
2 affirmatives to one belated suggestion against the error of liberty 
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Now as to the bigger picture of Aztlan I would suggest keeping the empire relatively compact to begin with focussing on the honour and tradition trees perhaps with a few minor digressions depending on circumstances. Either way I would advocate for killing spain earlier rather than later to get them out of the picture? On that note I would like to mention that we have one turn to the completion of the monument, jaguar anyone?
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Now as to the bigger picture of Aztlan I would suggest keeping the empire relatively compact to begin with focussing on the honour and tradition trees perhaps with a few minor digressions depending on circumstances. Either way I would advocate for killing spain earlier rather than later to get them out of the picture? On that note I would like to mention that we have one turn to the completion of the monument, jaguar anyone?
GreyWithAnE
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2011
- Messages
- 137
On Honor vs. Liberty as a better opener, from a purely in-game (non-RP) perspective:
The short version: Liberty is the good choice, mostly because of the restrictions we face from the LOTJ rules.
The long version:
Why Liberty?
This case is pretty clear: a free Settler and a free Worker in the near future, both of which we need. It seems like the only reason some of us don't want Liberty is that they feel Honor is better...
Why NOT Honor (yet)?
But it's not, at least not for us. Even if we want to eventually win by Domination, the usual reasons for going Honor first don't apply to our rules-restricted game.
Yes, we could theoretically gain cities and resources by conquest rather than by settling and developing them ourselves. But with what units? Taking a city, even a small one, would require 4-5 early-game units, and we won't even have a second jaguar until at least turn 35 or 40. We'll also be seriously delayed in researching Archery and Iron Working compared to typical warmongering strategies. To say nothing of how long it will take to develop any iron with no workers!
And since we can only give limited orders every 10 turns, coordinating to effectively wage an offensive war will be harder than usual. All told, we'd probably conquer our first city around turn 80-90 at the earliest. Compared to a free settler and reduced cost for future settlers by turn 40ish, Liberty is the clear choice here for the expansionist.
Yes, we can use Sacrificial Captives and the Honor starter to gain more culture. But again, these require that we actually have units who can take advantage of these bonuses, and the fact is we don't, and we won't for at least a good 30 turns, by which time we can have gotten what we need from Liberty and started on Honor anyway. Right now we have a single warrior who has yet to even engage a barbarian, and if we tell that Jaguar to fight more then we completely forgo further exploration of the map.
And as anyone who's done some playing as the Aztecs would probably agree, Sacrificial Captives yields a negligible amount of culture except for in the very early game. Yes, we are in the early game right now when this culture would be useful, but we have no choice but to have no army during this time, thanks to our production hands being tied. Putting more of our resources into martial social policies isn't going to magically make more military units spring from the ground who can actually use those policies.
To be clear, we should definitely start working down Honor once we can build the army to actually use it (we should clear the whole tree, starting with policy #4 after we get Collective Rule & Citizenship), but it's just not what we need right now. In the long term we can create a huge military and generally crush the world (especially Spain!), which will be fun like nothing else. But we need to open with Liberty.
The short version: Liberty is the good choice, mostly because of the restrictions we face from the LOTJ rules.
The long version:
Why Liberty?
This case is pretty clear: a free Settler and a free Worker in the near future, both of which we need. It seems like the only reason some of us don't want Liberty is that they feel Honor is better...
Why NOT Honor (yet)?
But it's not, at least not for us. Even if we want to eventually win by Domination, the usual reasons for going Honor first don't apply to our rules-restricted game.
Yes, we could theoretically gain cities and resources by conquest rather than by settling and developing them ourselves. But with what units? Taking a city, even a small one, would require 4-5 early-game units, and we won't even have a second jaguar until at least turn 35 or 40. We'll also be seriously delayed in researching Archery and Iron Working compared to typical warmongering strategies. To say nothing of how long it will take to develop any iron with no workers!
And since we can only give limited orders every 10 turns, coordinating to effectively wage an offensive war will be harder than usual. All told, we'd probably conquer our first city around turn 80-90 at the earliest. Compared to a free settler and reduced cost for future settlers by turn 40ish, Liberty is the clear choice here for the expansionist.
Yes, we can use Sacrificial Captives and the Honor starter to gain more culture. But again, these require that we actually have units who can take advantage of these bonuses, and the fact is we don't, and we won't for at least a good 30 turns, by which time we can have gotten what we need from Liberty and started on Honor anyway. Right now we have a single warrior who has yet to even engage a barbarian, and if we tell that Jaguar to fight more then we completely forgo further exploration of the map.
And as anyone who's done some playing as the Aztecs would probably agree, Sacrificial Captives yields a negligible amount of culture except for in the very early game. Yes, we are in the early game right now when this culture would be useful, but we have no choice but to have no army during this time, thanks to our production hands being tied. Putting more of our resources into martial social policies isn't going to magically make more military units spring from the ground who can actually use those policies.
To be clear, we should definitely start working down Honor once we can build the army to actually use it (we should clear the whole tree, starting with policy #4 after we get Collective Rule & Citizenship), but it's just not what we need right now. In the long term we can create a huge military and generally crush the world (especially Spain!), which will be fun like nothing else. But we need to open with Liberty.
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