The Left and Islam

[Trajan12]

Maybe it's because we both understand the neocon agenda and that an enemy of an enemy is a friend? Think about it. Hell, I'd rather believe in Islamists than murdering neocon fascist capitalist pigs.

Leader 1

Leader 2

Do us all a favor. Read and compare.

 

[Elrohir]

How naive of you. The Neocons are keeping me safe? Yeah, I sure feel safe after they beat up a beehive (the Middle East) for no reason. But serioulsly, I think we'd be way safer if we didn't invade countries millions of miles away for special interests.

First, if you recall correctly, the metaphorical bees attacked us first - the beehive didn't need stirring up, as they were already worked up, it needed a can of insecticide from point blank range. Secondly, Iraq isn't millions of miles away. Don't exaggerate.

And you say Muslims would kill me? I think not. They would surely kill you however. I've done nothing to the Muslims and I've never supported any war you guys started. And your image of Muslims being bloodthirsty murderers is just Bush sponsored propaganda.

That would matter if they were rational people. But Jihadists are not - if they were rational, they wouldn't be Jihadists. Did opposing the Iraq war save Tom Fox? No - and he believed in God, which you don't! They don't care that you don't support the Iraq war - they care that you aren't a Muslim, and are an American. That's all that matters to them, because they divide the world into two camps: The House of God, and the House of War. They're the House of God, and the other House needs to be destroyed. Period.

You think I'm exaggerating what these radical Muslims think? Waltz into Sadr city and yell "Allah doesn't exist!" I'm betting you'd be dead before you round the corner. These are people who blow themselves up in order to kill Americans - you seriously think they give a crap about your life?

I'd feel safer in a room with a Muslim than a racist imperialist neocon Republican conservative white male.

That's quite a busy person. Do you think these kinds of people exist in any significant numbers? If so, who represents them? Do you have examples of "racist imperialist neocon Republican conservative white male"'s?

Perhaps it is you that should grow up and learn to accept other peoples and opinions.

I accept that you have the right to delude yourself with communistic propaganda and ignore the real world. I don't accept that your views are equally as valid, or correct as my own. Why should I? You don't give me the same courtesy.

Yeah pardon me if I don't thank them personally for making the ME even more of a crap hole than it already was, introducing torture to the menu. Basically misquoting facts, lying, and trying to push through a strategy that before 9/11 was considered nuts. Keeping the world safe by making it a more dangerous place

I don't think the ME is worse off with Saddam gone. And if you think they're torturing people, then you're dreaming - and even if they were, they hardly "introduced it to the menu" - maybe you could talk to some survivors of Saddam's rape rooms and torture chambers, and then get back to me on how American "introduced" torture.

As for lying and the like, perhaps you could show evidence of President Bush saying one thing is true, and then it being shown later that he knew it wasn't true when he said it?

 

[Goonie]

Al Qaeda, Communism and Hitler all in one thread! I'm almost scared enough to vote BNP.

Almost .

 

[Sidhe]

I don't think the ME is worse off with Saddam gone. And if you think they're torturing people, then you're dreaming - and even if they were, they hardly "introduced it to the menu" - maybe you could talk to some survivors of Saddam's rape rooms and torture chambers, and then get back to me on how American "introduced" torture.

As for lying and the like, perhaps you could show evidence of President Bush saying one thing is true, and then it being shown later that he knew it wasn't true when he said it?

I don't think it's better off in any sense of the word, personally.

America introduced torture to America, for a country that was founded on never again submitting it's people to the horrors of cruel and unusual punishment it's pretty good at handing it out. Hypocrisy.

And yes we know you don't consider water boarding torture, despite it being defined as a form of torture, and all those released from guantanamo and various other prisons are all big liars and it's a conspiracy theory etc,etc,etc.

Fact is you can argue all you want about how terrible something is, but usually it's best to turn such critique on yourself as well.

US reputation has never been at a lower point than in the whole of it's history. If you want to be seen as the good guys, I suggest you stop using the tactics of the bad guys.

 

[Elrohir]

I don't think it's better off in any sense of the word, personally.

I would disagree, but since this is just a matter of opinions it doesn't matter much.

America introduced torture to America, for a country that was founded on never again submitting it's people to the horrors of cruel and unusual punishment it's pretty good at handing it out. Hypocrisy.

Who are they torturing in America?

And yes we know you don't consider water boarding torture, despite it being defined as a form of torture, and all those released from guantanamo and various other prisons are all big liars and it's a conspiracy theory etc,etc,etc.

Waterboarding is only torture in the sense that it's unpleasant. If that's the definition of torture, then yes, it is torture - but so is finding a worm in your apple, or getting pushed into a pool by a friend when you aren't expecting it, or getting a mustache drawn on your face with a permanent marker when you're sleeping, or....

Fact is you can argue all you want about how terrible something is, but usually it's best to turn such critique on yourself as well.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by this.

US reputation has never been at a lower point than in the whole of it's history. If you want to be seen as the good guys, I suggest you stop using the tactics of the bad guys.

Quite honestly, I don't think the US can make everyone love us by doing anything short of shriveling up and dying. And even then, if American ceased to exist, people would probably curse us for not being around to help when they need us. THAT is hypocrisy - damning us for doing the right thing when they don't like it, but whining for protection and help when they do want it. America is the most powerful country in the world, and that isn't going to change anytime soon. And as long as we are so powerful, we'll be hated - it's really that simple, and I'm rather resigned to that fact. Closing Guantanamo won't help, pulling out of Iraq won't help. As long as we're America and we're strong, those who are not will hate us.

Almost makes me want to become an isolationist, and let the world experience life without the Pax Americana protecting it for a couple generations. Of course, then we'd be heartless for not helping people. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

 

[Sidhe]

Quite honestly, I don't think the US can make everyone love us by doing anything short of shriveling up and dying. And even then, if American ceased to exist, people would probably curse us for not being around to help when they need us. THAT is hypocrisy - damning us for doing the right thing when they don't like it, but whining for protection and help when they do want it. America is the most powerful country in the world, and that isn't going to change anytime soon. And as long as we are so powerful, we'll be hated - it's really that simple, and I'm rather resigned to that fact. Closing Guantanamo won't help, pulling out of Iraq won't help. As long as we're America and we're strong, those who are not will hate us.

Actually there was a time, probably pre 20th century when America was pretty much universally liked and respected, then it got a little cocky started getting ivolved in conflicts, made a resolution in the ME ten times harder by being a complete ass about the whole Israel situation. Got involved in a pointless cold war that nearly led to the extinction of the human species. Don't try and play the biggest nation are always hated card, there's a hell of alot more to it than that. The level of popularity at the moment can be placed squarely and firmly at one mans door.

Almost makes me want to become an isolationist, and let the world experience life without the Pax Americana protecting it for a couple generations. Of course, then we'd be heartless for not helping people. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Next time you consider voting in neocon loonies also consider doing this for the length of their term. And another thing if your going to "help" out try actually helping out, not creating the situation and then claiming it's a great victory for the US when you step in and clear up the mess you caused. Or whining about Iran getting nuclear power, when you set them up with it in the first place.

Get some diplomatically savvy people in power, not crazies with stupid and delusional policies, is probably the first order of business, then you might repair some of the damage to your reputation.

I've never seen such a nation with such great potential so consistantly waste it, it's very sad.

EDIT: Oh and don't play dumb, I mean introducing it to America in the sense that it is now cosidered legal for places like guantanemo to use any means the president feels are necessary. Introducing as in a legal perspective. Or like a bill.

 

[Azash]

Elrohir, feeling like you're going to drown ISN'T torture? What is, then?

 

[greekguy]

How naive of you. The Neocons are keeping me safe? Yeah, I sure feel safe after they beat up a beehive (the Middle East) for no reason. But serioulsly, I think we'd be way safer if we didn't invade countries millions of miles away for special interests.

And you say Muslims would kill me? I think not. They would surely kill you however. I've done nothing to the Muslims and I've never supported any war you guys started. And your image of Muslims being bloodthirsty murderers is just Bush sponsored propaganda. I'd feel safer in a room with a Muslim than a racist imperialist neocon Republican conservative white male.

Perhaps it is you that should grow up and learn to accept other peoples and opinions.

Although i have no respect for Bush and his cronies, Al-Qaeda is much more evil than Bush and Cheney could ever dream about. don't go spouting BS just to get your point across that Neo-Conservatism is a bad philosophy.

 

[aneeshm]

This may sound funny as hell, but the left in India (the Communists) have joined forces with the Islamists. When George Bush came to visit India, both of these people protested in unison. And I am not making this us!

Talk of unholy alliances, eh?

 

[Atlas14]

The problem is western people who are "leftist" who supports Islam will eventually find that they've been fooled.

In short my advice to young western people is this, "you won't find your political and social ideals in Islam, defending Islamic ideology will not make you the next Karl Marx. But if you're motivated by other prejudices then I can't help you."

You've already been fooled There are plenty of peaceful, non-jihadist, perfectly legitimate, Muslims all around the world.

 

[Elrohir]

Actually there was a time, probably pre 20th century when America was pretty much universally liked and respected, then it got a little cocky started getting ivolved in conflicts, made a resolution in the ME ten times harder by being a complete ass about the whole Israel situation. Got involved in a pointless cold war that nearly led to the extinction of the human species. Don't try and play the biggest nation are always hated card, there's a hell of alot more to it than that. The level of popularity at the moment can be placed squarely and firmly at one mans door.

Pre 20th century we weren't a superpower. We were a regional power, yes, but not a superpower; that was
Britain's job, which we effectively took over only after they bankrupted themselves with the two world wars. You bringing this up actually backs up my isolationism point: People started hating us when we started reaching out of our shell. And while leftists like you seem to take such joy at the thought of the US not intervening abroad, keep in mind that what that meant in the past (And likely would mean in the future, if isolationism becomes more popular in the Us) would mean no intervention from the government, period. So you all would have to make due without the US military protecting you - not just staying out of countries where they aren't welcome. You wouldn't have the US giving billions of dollars a year in aid - because people wouldn't care about what happens outside of US borders.

I'm one the fence as to whether that's a good idea. I confess, though, that a good part of my feelings for that idea is wanting to see how other nations cope without the US assisting them. Perhaps that's not very charitable of me.

Next time you consider voting in neocon loonies also consider doing this for the length of their term. And another thing if your going to "help" out try actually helping out, not creating the situation and then claiming it's a great victory for the US when you step in and clear up the mess you caused. Or whining about Iran getting nuclear power, when you set them up with it in the first place.

First of all, I've never actually voted in a Congressional election, I'm not old enough. (I will be by the next one, however.) Secondly, we thought we were helping the world out when we invaded Iraq - our intentions can't be questioned. What do you propose we do then, only do what the UN security council says we can? Announcing that as US foreign policy would probably get the President lynched from the Washington Monument.

Get some diplomatically savvy people in power, not crazies with stupid and delusional policies, is probably the first order of business, then you might repair some of the damage to your reputation.

Condi is pretty savvy. I don't think she's savvy enough to make us popular worldwide, though - I'm not sure anyone short of God Himself could do that.

EDIT: Oh and don't play dumb, I mean introducing it to America in the sense that it is now cosidered legal for places like guantanemo to use any means the president feels are necessary. Introducing as in a legal perspective. Or like a bill.

All interrogation in Guantanamo is voluntary,. and torture is illegal in the US, and is illegal for US soldiers to do anywhere. Those are facts, even if you don't like them.

Elrohir, feeling like you're going to drown ISN'T torture? What is, then?

Beating, cutting, electrocuting, shoving bamboo under someone's fingernails, sticking scorpions down their shirts, ripping toenails out with rusty pliars, burning, etc....

I'm sure you get the picture.

 

[Atlas14]

Beating, cutting, electrocuting, shoving bamboo under someone's fingernails, sticking scorpions down their shirts, ripping toenails out with rusty pliars, burning, etc....

I'm sure you get the picture.

So why does feeling like you are going to drown not qualify? You listed torture that leaves physical marks of pain. What about emotional pain combined with physical pain? That is exactly what feeling like you are about to drown induces. I would know.

 

[Trajan12]

Water boarding does sound a tad excessive to me. It has been known to leave physcological scars. I'd abandon it altogether, if it has been done before by the U.S.

 

[Bast]

You've already been fooled There are plenty of peaceful, non-jihadist, perfectly legitimate, Muslims all around the world.

Sure there are I have friends that are muslim. But what's the percentage?

Are 80% peaceful? 50%? 30%?

And when you say peaceful are they also sending their savings to the ME to whatever charities they have going there (knowingly or unknowingly) financing terrorism?

 

[Sidhe]

Pre 20th century we weren't a superpower. We were a regional power, yes, but not a superpower; that was
Britain's job, which we effectively took over only after they bankrupted themselves with the two world wars. You bringing this up actually backs up my isolationism point: People started hating us when we started reaching out of our shell. And while leftists like you seem to take such joy at the thought of the US not intervening abroad, keep in mind that what that meant in the past (And likely would mean in the future, if isolationism becomes more popular in the Us) would mean no intervention from the government, period. So you all would have to make due without the US military protecting you - not just staying out of countries where they aren't welcome. You wouldn't have the US giving billions of dollars a year in aid - because people wouldn't care about what happens outside of US borders.

What has aid got to do with military intervention, what your saying is if you go isolationist you start sucking your thumb like a spoilt child? If you ask me next time 142 out of 191 countries tell you your full of it and your going to get in serious trouble you should be more likely to listen, you can mess with the UN all you like but it's you that keeps getting burned on this. Fine just don't invade any more countries for pointless motives that just serve to cause hatred widespread death and cost you more than you can really afford. That'd be nice. And since the UN was set up to prevent precisely what your country has done, you shouldn't ***** about setting it up in the first place, seems to me you like setting up organisations and talking the talk, but when you don't get what you want and it shoots you in the arse such as Iran and Afghanistan you blame everyone else.

All interrogation in Guantanamo is voluntary,. and torture is illegal in the US, and is illegal for US soldiers to do anywhere. Those are facts, even if you don't like them.

But their is a constant stream of information coming from their mostly from innocent people who eventually get released that they are being emotionally, mentally and physically tortured, I really don't think all of them are making it up, and that guy who tells us that he was kicked in the spine twice causing him to lose the use of his legs, certainly has the evidence of abuse. I just find it amazing that with all this talk of water boarding etc, that you honestly believe no torture has ever been perpetrated there. When Bush even passed a law that allowed him to sanction obtaining of information by any means he saw fit to sanction, no trials, no habeus corpus hearing nothing. It's just wrong, plain wrong and it's making you look bad. Even if as you maintain there is no torture it's still an abuse of human rights for the lack of trials alone, what gives you the right to take away four years of a mans life with no trial and no evidence whasoever?

 

[blackheart]

And when you say peaceful are they also sending their savings to the ME to whatever charities they have going there (knowingly or unknowingly) financing terrorism?

You (un)knowingly finance terrorism when you buy gasoline. Your money goe sto Arabic oil barons, some of which use their personal fortunes to finance terrorism.

 

[Atlas14]

Sure there are I have friends that are muslim. But what's the percentage?

Are 80% peaceful? 50%? 30%?

And when you say peaceful are they also sending their savings to the ME to whatever charities they have going there (knowingly or unknowingly) financing terrorism?

Such percentages are quite irrelevant. Even if the majority of muslims were proven to be fundamentalist terrorists, they are the product of a dictatorial government bombarding their populace with fundamentalist propaganda at the point of a gun. The peaceful Muslims outside of the ME and inside of it prove that it is a government-derived problem you refer to, not a religious one.

 

[skadistic]

Such percentages are quite irrelevant. Even if the majority of muslims were proven to be fundamentalist terrorists, they are the product of a dictatorial government bombarding their populace with fundamentalist propaganda at the point of a gun. The peaceful Muslims outside of the ME and inside of it prove that it is a government-derived problem you refer to, not a religious one.

So by that logic there should be no muslims in europe Canada or the US that born here and natual citizens that are militant islamic terrorists right?

 

[sonorakitch]

Actually there was a time, probably pre 20th century when America was pretty much universally liked and respected, then it got a little cocky started getting ivolved in conflicts, made a resolution in the ME ten times harder by being a complete ass about the whole Israel situation. Got involved in a pointless cold war that nearly led to the extinction of the human species. Don't try and play the biggest nation are always hated card, there's a hell of alot more to it than that. The level of popularity at the moment can be placed squarely and firmly at one mans door.

Funny...the second half of the 20th Century to this point has been the most peaceful this earth has ever seen. That is because of America more than anything else.

And you may refer to the Cold War as pointless, but please explain this to a starving North Korean who still lives in one of the last relics of communism. Communism was a scourge which needed to be stopped--if for anything else to preserve the human right of freedom. It is much harder for you to appreciate freedom than somebody living in Prague or Budapest 20 or 30 years ago.

Also, there really isn't much more to the distaste with America than being on top. I always find it funny how liberals are complaining that we do nothing in Darfur or Rwanda, but when we act against tyrants (Milosevich, Hussein, Aidid, etc.) we are being the aggressors. So which is it? Are you an isolationist? Or an interventionist? Or just somebody who only likes the conflicts that have no strategic value? Point is....we do something and it is bad and we do nothing and it is bad. We could just play the superpower game and colonize everything we can like the British and maybe then we would be okay with you?

For your final point, I guess you are proclaiming the fickleness of the world...they dislike America today because of the 43rd out of 43 Presidents?

~Chris

 

[Bast]

Funny...the second half of the 20th Century to this point has been the most peaceful this earth has ever seen. That is because of America more than anything else.

And you may refer to the Cold War as pointless, but please explain this to a starving North Korean who still lives in one of the last relics of communism. Communism was a scourge which needed to be stopped--if for anything else to preserve the human right of freedom. It is much harder for you to appreciate freedom than somebody living in Prague or Budapest 20 or 30 years ago.

Also, there really isn't much more to the distaste with America than being on top. I always find it funny how liberals are complaining that we do nothing in Darfur or Rwanda, but when we act against tyrants (Milosevich, Hussein, Aidid, etc.) we are being the aggressors. So which is it? Are you an isolationist? Or an interventionist? Or just somebody who only likes the conflicts that have no strategic value? Point is....we do something and it is bad and we do nothing and it is bad. We could just play the superpower game and colonize everything we can like the British and maybe then we would be okay with you?

For your final point, I guess you are proclaiming the fickleness of the world...they dislike America today because of the 43rd out of 43 Presidents?

~Chris

One of the best posts in this thread! Thank you!