The Left and Islam

[blackheart]

So if you convince your wife to go to the movies with you by tickling her, you're a torturer? I mean you just used "feelings" to make her "cave" from her position of not going to the movies. Going by your definition, that would be just as much torture as ripping someone's fingernails out with pliers or covering them with hot tar. Ridiculous.

Does torture fit under that definition? Certainly, but so do many things which aren't criminal or considered torture, like my scenario above. Your definition is far too broad.

Ok, how about to extract information with a very unpleasant tone and demeanor. Actually it doesn't even matter what the specific definition is, what matters is that people find it immoral. That's right, morals.

Not ways that are terribly effective, especially with the UN in charge.

I was thinking special forces operations or specific airstrikes.

 

[Elrohir]

Ok, how about to extract information with a very unpleasant tone and demeanor. Actually it doesn't even matter what the specific definition is, what matters is that people find it immoral. That's right, morals.

Oh, so morals can be used to set government policy when it supports your causes, but if it comes up somewhere else - like with abortion or gay marriage - it's none of the government's business? Hypocrisy.

I don't find waterboarding immoral. Which is irrelavent, actually, as a persons opinion doesn't effect the actual morality of an action - the whole world can think it's OK to kill babies on the first of March, but that doesn't make it right. The issue here isn't whether torture is moral, but what torture is.

A link you won't share, I take it.

I don't feel like wasting the time it would take to type it all out; I know where you stand on the Iraq war.

 

[Sidhe]

Elrohir, do you feel that the president is moral in passing a law that gives him free right to advocate torture, despite it being unconstitutional, if it is in the suposed name of the holy fight against terrorism?

 

[Azash]

Elrohir, when you are confronted with the same stimulus as when you are drowning, I doubt you are in a state of mind to remember you're not actually drowning. Torture is both "real" physical and mental pain/anguish, as well as anything that closely simulates it. AFAIK waterboarding qualifies for that.

 

[Elrohir]

Elrohir, do you feel that the president is moral in passing a law that gives him free right to advocate torture, despite it being unconstitutional, if it is in the suposed name of the holy fight against terrorism?

I don't think torture should ever be used except in the hypothetical and extremely unlikely "ticking bomb" scenario where you know for sure that a terrorist attack is going to take place, and you have someone in custody who knows how to stop it, but refuses to tell.

Except in that highly unrealistic scenario, I don't support torture. However, I don't think waterboarding is torture, so from your point of view, I do. But I don't say that I do, because I don't, from my point of view.

What law is this, by the way?

 

[blackheart]

Oh, so morals can be used to set government policy when it supports your causes, but if it comes up somewhere else - like with abortion or gay marriage - it's none of the government's business? Hypocrisy.

Hey, I'm as hypocritical as you are! However, my morals are a bit more consistent.

I don't find waterboarding immoral. Which is irrelavent, actually, as a persons opinion doesn't effect the actual morality of an action - the whole world can think it's OK to kill babies on the first of March, but that doesn't make it right. The issue here isn't whether torture is moral, but what torture is.

Morality isn't set in stone, it's fuid (slavery for example). Here's the defintion of torture from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary:

tor·ture
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : STRAINING

Notice the MIND part

I don't feel like wasting the time it would take to type it all out; I know where you stand on the Iraq war.

If the American government couldn't come up with a valid link, I doubt you can.

 

[Elrohir]

Hey, I'm as hypocritical as you are! However, my morals are a bit more consistent.

No, my morals are consistent - if someone is being hurt, the government has every right to enforce morals using legal means. You only allow the government to do so when you can use that to attack the US.

 

[fishjie]

i didnt support the iraq war. but muslims lost any sympathy from me the second they started kidnapping and beheading innocent people. unacceptable and inexcusable.

and of course, ive always supported zionist israel. if anything, they are far too soft on their enemies.

of course a war on terror can never be won because we are fighting against fanatical demons who do not value life nor respect other peoples beliefs.

 

[Azash]

fishjie, your post..

1. It's not really "muslims", more like "extremist muslims".

2. fanatical demons? Invent a mirror, for crying out loud.

 

[Red Door]

i didnt support the iraq war. but muslims lost any sympathy from me the second they started kidnapping and beheading innocent people. unacceptable and inexcusable.

Yes, all Muslims should be represented by the actions of individuals.

of course a war on terror can never be won because we are fighting against fanatical demons who do not value life nor respect other peoples beliefs.

Kind of hypocritical, don't you think? In your past posts, you have trolled against my beliefs.

 

[Princeps]

i didnt support the iraq war. but muslims lost any sympathy from me the second they started kidnapping and beheading innocent people.

But why do you support Israel when it does just that, and even worse.

 

[Sidhe]

I don't think torture should ever be used except in the hypothetical and extremely unlikely "ticking bomb" scenario where you know for sure that a terrorist attack is going to take place, and you have someone in custody who knows how to stop it, but refuses to tell.

Except in that highly unrealistic scenario, I don't support torture. However, I don't think waterboarding is torture, so from your point of view, I do. But I don't say that I do, because I don't, from my point of view.

What law is this, by the way?

Dec. 30, 2005: US interrogators cannot torture prisoners or otherwise subject them to cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment.

Bush's signing statement: The president, as commander in chief, can waive the torture ban if he decides that harsh interrogation techniques will assist in preventing terrorist attacks.

This one. A signing law.

From this thread.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=200220

 

[Princeps]

I don't find waterboarding immoral.

However, it is TORTURE. US is being hypocritical once again. Once, US persecuted people for torture, because they used waterboarding. Now, they're using it themselves. Funny.

 

[RedWolf]

i didnt support the iraq war. but muslims lost any sympathy from me the second they started kidnapping and beheading innocent people. unacceptable and inexcusable.

So ALL the muslims are kidnapping and beheading innocent people now?

I'd take the more rational stance "I have sympathy for muslims but not the militants that kidnap and behead innocent people"... But whatever - you're welcome to make gross generalizations if you'd like.

 

[useless]

Yes, all Muslims should be represented by the actions of individuals.

why? what good would come of this? Just because one muslim goes and kills some one doesnt make ALL muslims murderers. the same with if a muslim terrorist detonates him self and kills others.

 

[Azash]

why? what good would come of this? Just because one muslim goes and kills some one doesnt make ALL muslims murderers. the same with if a muslim terrorist detonates him self and kills others.

I'm quite certain AlCosta was being ironic.

 

[useless]

I'm quite certain AlCosta was being ironic.

if he was then i must of take it the wrong way >_>

 

[Trajan12]

But why do you support Israel when it does just that, and even worse.

Israel beheads innocent people? News to me...

 

[Princeps]

Israel beheads innocent people? News to me...

Well it doesn't behead - beheading is just a form of execution. It does, however, bomb innocent people, shoots them and imprisons them...

 

[Red Door]

I'm quite certain AlCosta was being ironic.

Azash is right, as usual.