the logic of choosing the types of food resources

[weasel77066]

Yea, salt was used for curing and preserving meat. It can also be used for hot canning, pressure canning, pickling and brining of just about any organic food, from pork to fish to tomatoes to eggs to apples. Just about anything. Brining being for cabbages (saurkraut), fish, eggs, salt pork etc...
In places like SE asia and phillipines, I dont believe natives couldve survived without it, just from helping dehydration alone.
I believe salt and olives were amongst the most important of the ancient trades. Olives being for oils which add huge amounts of calories to diets in places like middle-east where it helps fight the heat effects. When I was in middle east, I SEEN them literally drinking olive oil as well as for dipping sauces. MASSIVE calorie intake. It can be like gold to bedouins who roam in areas unsuitable for living.
Now that Im reading Mangos text, coffee/tea is also a good one that was left out. Definitely a comfort item as well as "food" item. I know that caffeine opens your lungs ability to accept oxygen, helping respiritory problems that could come from living in a low tech urban environment, but as far as nutrient I don't know (sure is good though, I couldnt start a day without at least 2cups coffee, and I measure my Civving sessions in pots)
Oh well, just an idea. I would like to see it in the next expansion along with several others to help make trading more complex with the possibility of having resources compliment each other (when in pairs or sets) Kinda like gold and having a forge in the city= +1happy

 

[Mango]

I think cathedrals increase incense happiness. Theatres increase dye happiness. Forge increase gold, silver and gem. Market increases fur, ivory, silk and whale happiness (ivory already gets a bonus for being required for war elephants). Grocer increases banana, spices, sugar and wine health (making 3 luxury resources into health resources). Supermarket increases cow, pig, sheep and deer health. Granary increases rice, corn and wheat health. Lighthouse gives an extra food to fish, clam and crabs.

In other words all non-strategic resources already get building bonuses. You don't realize it until you spell it out, but I think they do a very good job. The only one that is underpowered is incense, which not only appears in terrible terrain usually but doesn't get a building bonus until you build a cathedral, which takes 3 temples of the same religion and does not serve much purpose unless you really need culture. At least incense with plantation yields a ton of commerce.

If salt was implemented I could see some sort of bonus associated with added health to meat. The problem with that is health isn't much of a factor until you get to higher levels. You hardly notice it until prince.

 

[weasel77066]

Yea youre right. They do a good job of "accenting" resources to make them better than just alone. Actually, as a game and for balance, its not very shy of being great. I would just like to see a little more complexity. Thats all. Perhaps stress the importance of certain resources as they pertained to actual civs (or regions)
Youre also correct about the hinderance of the health bonus in particular. They claim that noble is the "even" level, but health is never a factor on that level up untill about prince where it can become brutal.
I would like the system in general to be re-worked and touched on, to be less general and have more specifics, but it would be alot of work for them to do. Perhaps the level bonuses should be added to the resources themselves, rather than just "given" Then bonuses could be applied more freely to more resources.
I guess what Im trying to get at (with a degree of difficulty) is that certain resources have played HUGE roles in certain situations in history. Im only addressing the food/staple/health bonus aspects (as this is the OP)
Salt becoming so important to the Romans, they even used it as currency. Olives as Ive said. Seals also being omitted, even though eskimos survived in arctic conditions and whale played some part, crab no part what-so-ever, and mostly it was seal meat and fat/skin for a variety of uses. But its not in the game.
I know they cant add them all, otherwise- too many bonuses. So Im suggesting something a little more creative from the team. They are doing a great job on coming up with a whole new civ experience, ie. vassals warlords, religions etc.. I would like to see it reflected in the resource/trade factors as well. Bonuses for certain resources in certain locations and the like, as well as more in depth bonuses or redefined bonus for combos with buildings. Then the standard developing pattern for each game has the possibility of being completely different each time.
I suggest giving more bonuses to more resources (which are tied into map generation a little more specifically) coupled with more building bonuses to more buildings. Then, on top of that, add more negative hits for negative factors... such as jungle, desert, population and other building (like walls for instance) Then top it off by "outdating" and adding different resources via the tech tree. Salt becoming obsolete with refridgeration, sugar becoming usefull after chemistry or whatever (as kovacsfo said)
This way the experience changes through the development of your civ and is different with each map generation (as far a play goes) ie. you may never HAVE to build a granary, or an aquaduct, and you dont end up with a city that seems to fight pollution with massive amounts of grains. A particular civ may be functioning real well for a long time, by having a combination of certain food/health resources, but if they lose trade to one of them, they are forced to build "another way" or perhaps war in order to get it back. You see where my point is? Im not sure I made it well. My idea to implement the food bonuses wouldnt work as is, it would have to be simplified or totally re-work the health system. The level bonuses figured in afterwards.
Map generation could be alot of fun afterwards, climbing through hurdles that are unique by themselves, and really, with no such thing as a bad start, because there IS a way through it. Otherwise- some real-life civs could never have lasted. Also the combination of civ-leader traits-unique unit-unique building and new system could literally mean complete new xperience each time.
Now Im spent on this. They probably won't touch it at all, but it would be nice to see an attempt. Heck, they r professionals, they could come up with something good, even better. Sorry to rattle on, the OP has made interesting subject outta this and I thought Id pipe in.

 

[Nicci]

besides that: the game introduced 'health' as a new concept. u just need some resources to bump up 'health'. it really doesn't matter what names they give it. they could just as easy called it 'H1', H2. etc. the point of them is that they raise the level of health in ur cities.

 

[Mango]

Also there's a pretty big fallacy in that although grains provide a significantly large amount of calories in our diets, the vast majority of those calories come from 3 specific grains, which happen to be... corn, wheat and rice. In fact those three crops are the most grown crops in the world. It's funny that corn is a food specific resource though, since the majority of corn is used for animal feed. It's also used as a cheap sweetener to make bourbon!

Oh and it can also be made into biofuel like ethanol. So yeah, its use solely as a food source could be expanded. Like say once you get a certain tech corn could yield happiness too... since everyone loves them some whiskey.

edit: You can also make alcohol from rice and wheat, so maybe not.

 

[kovacsflo]

It also sort of borders on the spice resource, although spices appear in a different area than salt.

I don't agree with that. The phisiological effects doesn't sort of borders on.

About coffe, I realized a new problem. It was native in Ethiopia, really far away from South America when it is mostly planted nowadays. Anyway, moving happens for several plants and animals, but it is rarely that a plant feels better in the new place.

 

[Robi D]

To the OP. You have completely missed the thinking behind food resources. They were not chosen because they are the most important in our diet; they were chosen because they keep the game balance. I'll say that once more: The food resources that were picked are there because they make the game balanced. They are spread over many different categories and types of terrain, meaning that no matter where you start you will always have some food resources and will have to trade for the others. As long as they are reasonably important in life its fine, whether it is 'important to our diet' or not is completely, utterly and fully irelevant.

I completely agree. Whether or not the food resources accurately represent our diet is not the point, its the game balance that the issue. This is like argueing whether or not the grassland in the game is the right shade of green

 

[Akka]

To the OP. You have completely missed the thinking behind food resources. They were not chosen because they are the most important in our diet; they were chosen because they keep the game balance. I'll say that once more: The food resources that were picked are there because they make the game balanced. They are spread over many different categories and types of terrain, meaning that no matter where you start you will always have some food resources and will have to trade for the others. As long as they are reasonably important in life its fine, whether it is 'important to our diet' or not is completely, utterly and fully irelevant.

Disagree.

Though it's true that different kind of food are here for game balance, I think it's as important to cater to immersion by making them at least semi-realistic.
The OP was too nitpicking in riling about specifically calculated balanced food, but you're as wrong in dismissing the immersion factor.

As far as a staple for adding a health bonus goes, I think salt should be very important resource in the game. Just for preserving and curing alone would make it practically a requirement for any urban environment before electricity, not to mention its other uses. I thought it was rather odd that it was left out completely

Strongly agree here.

Salt fill perfectly both the gameplay aspect (probably the only food ressource that could appear in a desert, hence added strategical possibilities and variety) and the immersion aspect (very notable food ressource, with really important biological and nutritional effects).

 

[Swedishguy]

You should be able to breed stock etc.

 

[Quagga]

I vote for coffee, olives and salt. Though I think the preservation effects of salt may have been accounted for sufficiently with Pottery/Granary.

Having access to coffee could give +1 beakers in all cities, or at least in those cities with Library or University. Or maybe +1 beakers for each Library, University and Lab.

 

[Urederra]

You forgot that this game should be simulate reality,

No, I didn't forget. This game shouldn't simulate reality, at least for me. It is good that resembles reality, but when playability and reality are confronted, I choose the former. It is a game, not a simulator.

I completely agree. Whether or not the food resources accurately represent our diet is not the point, its the game balance that the issue. This is like argueing whether or not the grassland in the game is the right shade of green

On a different topic, it is funny the name the game gives to the yellow hills when you place your mouse pointer over them:

hills/plains.

A bit oxymoronic.

 

[jUNGLE cHRIS]

About fast food problem: well, maybe there should be resources giving you happiness (maybe 2 directly) causing unhealthiness, the same way as for example cigarette does.

Tabocco would be a good luxury resource that reduces health. it makes people happy up until the discovery of biology or medicine.

 

[kovacsflo]

No, I didn't forget. This game shouldn't simulate reality, at least for me. It is good that resembles reality, but when playability and reality are confronted, I choose the former.

It's not the question of choosing, I don't think that the game could be less enyojable if for example potato appears instead of sheep and salt instead of crab. However I agree that tundra terrains wouldn't have food without deer, but it wouldn't be a big problem if there were only 1 or 2 seefood.

 

[kovacsflo]

Several guys mention oliva should appear on the game. Since I work in an oil-seed processing multinational company (we produce several kinds of oil, including oliva), I tell you that oliva is not so important as most person believes. The amount of oliva oil is just 5 % of all oils, and it isn't much healthier than rape or sunflower oil (but much healthier than soybean oil).
It has less saturated fatty acid (omega 3, 6)

 

[Swedishguy]

besides that: the game introduced 'health' as a new concept. u just need some resources to bump up 'health'. it really doesn't matter what names they give it. they could just as easy called it 'H1', H2. etc. the point of them is that they raise the level of health in ur cities.

You could use manure as ahealth resource!

 

[Mango]

Several guys mention oliva should appear on the game. Since I work in an oil-seed processing multinational company (we produce several kinds of oil, including oliva), I tell you that oliva is not so important as most person believes. The amount of oliva oil is just 5 % of all oils, and it isn't much healthier than rape or sunflower oil (but much healthier than soybean oil).
It has less saturated fatty acid (omega 3, 6)

It's more of a historical resource, but I don't think it should be in the game. Not when coffee and tea aren't.

 

[repeatoffender]

Everybody interested in Civ should read Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond.

here's a link:

http://www.pbs.org/gunsgermssteel/


Food resource availability is probably the most important reason the world is what is today and why certain civs developed at the rates they did while others might have taken thousands of years. The presence of many different types of grains and animals which could be domesticated is the major reason why civilization started in the middle east and china and spread outward. The lack of animals in the new world and the lack of food resources outside corn, beans, and a few other crops is the reason growth was stagnated severely.

The most important foods are mostly represented by the game but many are absent.

The important thing to me however is that in the game we have the option to simply "irrigate" a tile and voila, it makes more food. What are we growing there to generate that food? You don't just go into the wild and apply water and get food in return, you have to plant a previously domesticated crop like corn or wheat. To me, the underlying mechanics of food production in Civ are wrong. Once you domesticate a sqaure of Corn, you should be able to spread irrigation to get more food yield from nearby areas by growing corn there.

The major food sourses missing from Civ that played a very big role in our history are:
Cereals and grasses: Sorghum and Barley
Pulses: Peas and Beans
Roots and Tubers: Potatoes, and Yams

Other important crops didnt produce food but increased production:
Flax, Hemp, Cotton



I think the way its handled in the game is great for simplicity but overall it could be much different.

 

[Swedishguy]

I really think salt would be a good idea.

 

[pholkhero]

What is a food engineer (i.e., how do you become one? what do you do all day? have you always dreamed of being one??)?

btw, i think the Potato(e) is a great addition to the game ~ would really make a lot of sense vis a vis "You have shown the leadership abilities of: Dan Quayle" ~ ever read the article/essay in 'What If 2' i believe re: how the world would be drastically different w/o the HUGE calories the potato gave to the human animal. Highly recommended.

anyway, as Dan Quayle said: Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things.
( to Frankcor)

although I AM interested in the food engineer profession . . .

 

[Swedishguy]

I'm working as a food engineer! We catch rats all day and...

...Hello boss. What I'm doing? Nothing at all. (Gluc! Thud.)