The Many Roles of Leonard Nimoy

[Crackerbox]

I guess speak no evil of the dead, but Nimoy really irritated a lot of people for being cast in Marco Polo AND doing yellowface as well. It's so campy and terrible. By that time, it was considered bad form to do this. Imagine Sulu played by a white guy?

Spoiler :

It's cringeworthy.

It was great to see him in the Star Trek reboot.

Link to video.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I guess speak no evil of the dead, but Nimoy really irritated a lot of people for being cast in Marco Polo AND doing yellowface as well. It's so campy and terrible. By that time, it was considered bad form to do this. Imagine Sulu played by a white guy?

Why should Nimoy be vilified for taking an acting job? It makes more sense to be angry with the casting department.

By that logic, I should be angry with Benedict Cumberbatch for playing nuKhan in STiD when he bears no resemblance whatsoever to the "Space Seed" version of Khan. The actuality is that I think the casting department made an atrocious decision.

 

[Crackerbox]

Why should Nimoy be vilified for taking an acting job? It makes more sense to be angry with the casting department.

By that logic, I should be angry with Benedict Cumberbatch for playing nuKhan in STiD when he bears no resemblance whatsoever to the "Space Seed" version of Khan. The actuality is that I think the casting department made an atrocious decision.

Hardly vilified. I liked Leonard Nimoy and watched many films and of the famous Star Trek series and the films that following (including the particularly poor Star Trek 5). No, Nimoy's choice of doing that role is on an infamous list of "yellowface". Try this on for size. Would you cringe if a white actor put on blackface and portrayed an African-American like Dr. Martin Luther King? Of course people would cringe.

Examples of Yellowface found here.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Hardly vilified. I liked Leonard Nimoy and watched many films and of the famous Star Trek series and the films that following (including the particularly poor Star Trek 5). No, Nimoy's choice of doing that role is on an infamous list of "yellowface". Try this on for size. Would you cringe if a white actor put on blackface and portrayed an African-American like Dr. Martin Luther King? Of course people would cringe.

Examples of Yellowface found here.

Maybe this could be in a new thread, so as not to derail this one.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Moved these posts to a new thread as they are not appropriate in a memorial/tribute thread.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

^Thanks.

@Crackerbox: Criticizing Leonard Nimoy for these choices in his career means criticizing every other actor who ever played an ethnicity not his/her RL one.

Did he make a convincing Indian in that Gunsmoke episode? No. Not from the clip I saw. But that was a decision made decades ago to cast him, and yeah, he could have refused. But it's a job, and back then he wasn't in the position of being able to afford to turn down an acting job.

The Achmet role in Marco Polo is less troublesome, since that role was not for a Chinese/Mongol person.

Sometimes it is necessary to use other-ethnicity actors. I used to work in musical theatre, and the year we did a production of The King and I, there weren't many Oriental actors/actresses who auditioned, never mind people who could handle the acting, singing, and dancing requirements. The person playing the King was a man from India. His RL daughter played one of his junior wives. Most of the Siamese roles (modern day Thai) were played by Caucasian actors/actresses. If the producer had held out for an all-Oriental cast, that show would never have been done, since there just weren't enough people of the proper authentic ethnic mix here who were able to handle the roles.

So Leonard Nimoy was cast to play a villain in Marco Polo. Who would you have chosen for the role instead? I know who I would have chosen instead of Benedict Cumberbatch in the nuTrek movie.

 

[Crackerbox]

Of course it's necessary, say in a university setting, to allow all ethnicities a chance to participate within a production. That goes without question. In this way, minorities were given the chance to portray some famous character from history.

Think about the history of acting from such diverse places such as England or Japan. Men played the roles at first. It was controversial even for women to play female role! Can you imagine if we did this today and restricted women from playing a role that was designed to depict a woman?

Star Trek was unusual as it began to have a regular number of ethnic people on the show playing plausible parts. Up until then, many times a person might play a part strictly based upon what the casting director thought they could "pull off" and not cause a suspension of disbelief in the audience.

With university productions, or even a commerical production, there have been female performances of Becket's Waiting for Godot. Becket sure didn't like them though. He specifically wrote the part for men.

No, Nimoy needed an acting gig, and that plays out in postmodern history as one actor after another has donned stage makeup to allow that suspension of disbelief. But it's not unnoticed by Asian actors who are incredulous today that they were not allowed to play the part. Sorry, we don't do that those of African ancestry. It would clearly be considered bad form.

Yellowface causes a true sense of irritation to Asians and to others who grasp the wrongness of allowing that to happen in dramatic performances. Today casting directors are more sensitive to this and seek out ethnic actors to play those part.

So it's not a criticism of Nimoy, an actor I continue to admire, and certainly when very young even wanted to emulate. He sensitively portrayed a person struggling with the two halves of his being.

Since many of us are quite aware of the very different aspects of our ancestry, then we especially note his performance. At the time, there wasn't anything like this, and so it's part of the history of American acting, just as Nichol Nichelles' (Uhura) first interacial kiss with William Shatner (Kirk) also made acting history.

Truthfully, I find it jarring when some ethnic actor suddenly appears within the milieu of a production when it's entirely inappropriate for the historical period. It's often entirely implausible, the script is rewritten (for many productions are not new by even ancient myths). It breaks the flow of the story, and one is left going, why did they do this other than political correctness?

We have to realize that the audience of viewers is diverse, and so the producer is making sure of the commercial success of the production, based upon who he/she thinks will watch it and support it. For this reason, an aging actress might get a part that she shouldn't really do, the same is overwhelmingly true for an American actor, for people today can get behind the idea of a 55 year old man being in a romantic relationship with a 25 nubile actress, but find the flipside of that equation to be less plausible! How silly.

Sometimes they go with star power versus allowing an unknown to play, and over and over this influences productions. To continue to do that means unknown actors no experience, and during the seventies African-American actors would sigh, "Oh I get to play a pimp again. I get to play a drunk. I get to play a street gangster. Hmmmm, what about just a run-of-the-mill American? I guess not."

The link to yellowface was in there to let people know that this practice continues to happen, to the consternation of Asians or to those disturbed by it. Today it makes zero sense given the adequate number of Asians to play their own roles. There's no point to do it anymore. But by that logic, it's not necessary to say make Romeo be an Asian either. It's actually odd to do so and in inexplicable when he suddenly enters the stage.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Let me be clear on a few things:

Ever since I saw that abominable nuTrek movie with "Khan" I have wondered why they didn't get an actual Indian actor to play the part (regardless of Ricardo Montalban's RL ethnicity, Khan Noonien Singh was stated to be Sikh, and from India). Why did they choose someone so obviously unsuitable? And on the Star Trek forum I belong to, I've been outright called racist because of Ricardo Montalban's early roles as non-white characters when he was made up to resemble them - they said I must approve of things like "blackface" and what you call "yellowface".

I do think it's best to have actors of the appropriate ethnicities, whenever possible. When it isn't possible, casting directors should come as close as possible, given that they do have a responsibility to cast someone who they feel can do the best job with the part. Ricardo Montalban did a fantastic job in "Space Seed." And while Leonard Nimoy's role in Marco Polo wasn't fantastic, it was memorable, since I've never forgotten it even almost 33 years later.

I spent 12 years active in the Society for Creative Anachronism (medieval recreation organization that will celebrate its 50th anniversary next year). Our group was interested in medieval-era movies and plays, especially the Shakespearean ones. We did front-of-house work for Red Deer College's production of Romeo and Juliet, and Juliet was played by women (two different casts that alternated nights). I do know that if it was a more authentic production, Juliet, her mother, and the Nurse would all have been played by men/boys, but considering that this was a production put on by the college drama department, excluding the women would have resulted in their not being allowed to complete their coursework - obviously an unworkable situation, wouldn't you say?

What about productions of Peter Pan? Whether on TV or in live theatre, I have never seen even one performance of that where Peter Pan was played by anyone other than a girl or woman. (I don't count the Disney animated version where Peter is obviously a boy) Even our local production cast a girl in the role. The only rationale I've ever been able to come up with is that it's easier to find a girl or woman with the required vocal range to handle the songs.

Regarding the use of 'star power' and age-appropriate actors... the most jarring incident of that I recall was while watching Mel Gibson's production of Hamlet. I thought Gibson was very good in the role. But Glenn Close as his mother? What were they thinking?

The situation is similar on soaps. Very often characters go through SORAS (Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome) when younger characters are suddenly aged either a few years or as many as 10-15 years to allow older actors to play them. But often the casting directors don't consider that while this allows them to use teen or young adult actors instead of children, it can cause the older generations of characters to suddenly be out of sync.

 

[Crackerbox]

You seem to misunderstand my words upon one point. I was saying that in drama, whether in Japan or England, it began being very exclusive with acting so only men played the roles, but they relented and let women play roles.

Obviously Shakespeare is enhanced by women playing those parts. In fact, I think the people who play Romeo and Juliet are often too old. But back to point, it would be weird for say for a Japanese young male actor to play Romeo (unless it's a university production where there are limits on the number of actors).

Yeah, it's rather dated to put someone in who is of white European ancestry to play a Sikh, isn't it?

I wonder how Nimoy made it financially all of these years since he was so typecast. He did play on another tv serial: Mission Impossible. I think it was produced by Desilu the same studio that was involved in Star Trek.

This is a fun clip since Mark Leonard who played his father (Sarek) is in the scene.

Link to video.

Nimoy narrated In Search Of, and it was one of the few paranormal documentary shows. Listen to the very dated and jarring soundtrack.

Link to video.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

You seem to misunderstand my words upon one point. I was saying that in drama, whether in Japan or England, it began being very exclusive with acting so only men played the roles, but they relented and let women play roles.

I haven't misunderstood anything you said. I am well aware that in the past it was considered either scandalous or even, in some places, unlawful for women to act on the stage. Certainly in ancient Rome, it was considered scandalous for the aristocracy to perform on stage, as Caligula and Nero did, and any women who performed in public were given about the same, or less respect, than common prostitutes.

Obviously Shakespeare is enhanced by women playing those parts. In fact, I think the people who play Romeo and Juliet are often too old. But back to point, it would be weird for say for a Japanese young male actor to play Romeo (unless it's a university production where there are limits on the number of actors).

If you're going for authentic Shakespeare, yes. Romeo was Italian, not Japanese. But if it's an adaptation that twists the story a bit, then I don't see as much of an issue. Romeo and Juliet were neither Polish nor Puerto Rican, yet that didn't stop West Side Story from being a terrific musical adaptation. And yeah, I'm aware that Natalie Wood, who played Maria, was not Puerto Rican.

Yeah, it's rather dated to put someone in who is of white European ancestry to play a Sikh, isn't it?

Not sure if that's a dig at Ricardo Montalban or Benedict Cumberbatch. Personally, I would have preferred Naveen Andrews as Khan (in the nuTrek movie, if they just had to use Khan; the story would have worked better if it had been one of Khan's followers to avoid the whole "this is just a Wrath of Khan ripoff" problem). I've seen him in various movies and TV shows, and think he could have done justice to the role.

I wonder how Nimoy made it financially all of these years since he was so typecast. He did play on another tv serial: Mission Impossible. I think it was produced by Desilu the same studio that was involved in Star Trek.

You don't think Nimoy realized that he had to hustle for other acting jobs and whatever else he could do after Star Trek was canceled? Yes, he was in Mission: Impossible. I never saw any of that show, but may look it up at some point. I saw In Search Of... while it was originally aired, and plenty of other things Leonard Nimoy did, whether it was a movie or guest role on TV (ie. Invasion of the Body Snatchers, Columbo, T.J. Hooker, etc.).

Nimoy was also a writer, director, photographer, he appeared on stage in various plays, and he was paid for his Star Trek convention appearances. Actors charge for autographs. While the residuals weren't great for Star Trek (back then, who knew how things would turn out?), he did eventually negotiate better contracts with the studios and other entities that owned various pieces of Star Trek with which he was involved. And he would have received some compensation for the many items of licensed Star Trek memorabilia that used his likeness.

So while he may have had some lean years (I have no idea, since he never wrote such personal and revealing autobiographies as Shatner has), overall he did fairly well for himself.

 

[Crackerbox]

No, not a dig at either of those actors who portrayed Khan. I liked them both. I agree with your idea of Naveen Andrews as he played Kip in the English Patient and gave a marvelous performance.

There's a big difference in doing a play like West Side Story as while based upon Shakespeare, it really has its own cultural significance. The same case could be made about Ran the Japanese version of King Lear. Both are fine films on their own merit which were influenced by Shakespearean plays (I know you realize this, it's for other readers who might not know it certainly about Ran).

Link to video.
I don't think much of William Sharner's acting ability. I did feel sorry for him post Star Trek as he floundered, gained weight, and had trouble finding gigs. But this is pretty much all of the original crew who luckily due to fans could make enough money by going from converntion to another. In this it was rather like the Grateful Dead and their Deadheads who would endlessly attend another concert.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I don't think much of William Sharner's acting ability. I did feel sorry for him post Star Trek as he floundered, gained weight, and had trouble finding gigs. But this is pretty much all of the original crew who luckily due to fans could make enough money by going from converntion to another. In this it was rather like the Grateful Dead and their Deadheads who would endlessly attend another concert.

Shatner did have some lean years, particularly due to his divorce around the time Star Trek was canceled (his ex-wife got most of his assets, along with the kids). And yes, he did initially have a problem with being typecast.

But you do realize that a. Shatner was trained as a stage actor, and that influenced his acting choices; and b. Most of those clips were taken out of context (and what's with the stupid song instead of the actual dialogue from "Plato's Stepchildren"?), right?

 

[Crackerbox]

Well I wasn't impressed with his string of TV appearances and the awful The Devil's Rain. In 1972 he was in the benign telekinesis film The People (nearly impossible to find on DVD), which is actually a favorite science fiction fantasy book by Zeena Henderson (it makes for a great introduction to young teens about science fiction). It's about extraterrestrials who settle on the Earth, who are like the Amish, and hide their mental powers and their technology. It's very readable even today.

Link to video.
It's a genuine stinker.

Link to video.

Leonard in Rhubarb 1951

Link to video.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I've read all of Zenna Henderson's "The People" books, and seen the movie. Kim Darby was in it as well (she played Miri in the TOS episode "Miri").

I may not have seen all of William Shatner's TV and movie appearances, but I'm familiar with most of the ones that deal with science fiction. I got into Star Trek and reading science fiction novels back in 1975 and have been collecting SF books ever since.

Whatever people may think of William Shatner's acting choices, there are only two that I really got upset about. The first was the SNL "Get a life" skit. Insulting the segment of society that helped put food on his table for so many years was not something I appreciated, and I promptly stopped buying the books he wrote (or had ghost-written; who knows how much of those novels he really did himself), and the only reason I watched Boston Legal was because I liked James Spader. I finally broke this years-long boycott when his last autobiography came out.

The second choice was that mess called Star Trek V. I nearly walked out of the theatre in the middle of that one.

Other than these two things, Shatner hasn't done too badly over the years. He did what many actors do - take whatever jobs are offered, or create his own. There's even a lolcat meme that was popular a few years ago - ShatCat:

 

[Crackerbox]

Yeah, I saw that Shatner skit the night he hosted. Man oh man, there was Hell to pay about it. It royally pissed off the convention fans.

Link to video.

Link to video.
I'm shocked you know about Zenna Henderson. It's extremely rare for anyone to know of her work. I loved those stories. They fit into a kinder sweet sort of science fiction, one that hopeful. So much of it was dour and dystopia.

Yeehah, Shatner was allowed to direct Star Trek 5. Whoa what a stinker. I sat through it but so mortified. When he first came back to Star Trek the Motion Picture, it was so forced as if he'd forgot how to act completely.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

I'm shocked you know about Zenna Henderson. It's extremely rare for anyone to know of her work. I loved those stories. They fit into a kinder sweet sort of science fiction, one that hopeful. So much of it was dour and dystopia.

I still have those books. They're on one of my shelves right now.

If you want to read science fiction that isn't so gloomy and depressing but is still an exciting adventure, I'd recommend Lord Valentine's Castle, by Robert Silverberg. Silverberg had pretty much retired from writing SF when the idea for that novel came to him. It's a grand adventure on the planet Majipoor 14,000 years in the future, and the best word I can think of to describe it is exuberant.

 

[CKS]

I'm shocked you know about Zenna Henderson. It's extremely rare for anyone to know of her work. I loved those stories. They fit into a kinder sweet sort of science fiction, one that hopeful. So much of it was dour and dystopia.

Really? I would have put her in the "not really popular, but well known by people who read science fiction" category. My reading friends must differ from yours. I should dig my copies out - my daughter is almost old enough to enjoy them.

I think I missed the dour and dystopic phase, too. Possibly because when I was really into science fiction, if I'd have started a book that was depressing, I'd have dropped it and scratched that author off my list of people I read.

 

[Crackerbox]

There's a wonderful episode of Star Trek the Next Generation in which Picard has an extraterrestrial artifact. It's a series of figures and it's supposed to represent the many voices inside of us. Truly many of the Psalms are like that too: the depressed voice, the doubting voice, the cheerful, the steadfast in spite of adversity, etc.

Science Fiction and Fantasy over the years has been diverse, but of late post-apoc and dystopian media has been largely dark and hopeless. The reality is if things did get bad, that remarkably enough, the worst doesn't happen. Humanity is remarkably resilient. Sure climate change happens in major ways and by periods, mass starvation happens as an outcome of various scenatios, plagues happen, but always we've sprung back from the precipice. Some survivors knew enough to cope, but their lives were dramatically altered, and sometimes it fundamentally altered their past journey.

So some balance is needed to continue to read Science Fiction and Fantasy such that it's not entirely of one subgenre. They say Simak's work is similar to Zenna Henderson's. Maybe I'll give it a try? Actually, I'd be interested in a topic on uplifting books in general.

I really enjoyed A World Made by Hand by James Howard Kunstler because it was balanced. The survivors relearned old technology from other survivors and created many different societies within miles of each other. Some were very dark, others were spiritual, others were homesteaders, another was benign feudalism, etc.

But we're getting way off topic since this topic was split off by a moderator and is less and less about Leonard Nimoy.

Nimoy was in Catlow, a popular western of the seventies.

Link to video.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

It's easy enough to take the wider discussion of SF to another thread.

I haven't seen Leonard Nimoy in anything Western other than an episode of Bonanza.

 

[Browd]

He also appeared in several episodes of Gunsmoke, The Virginian and Death Valley Days, and in Sam Wannamaker's Catlow (1971, based on a Louis L'Amour western).