The Mongol Horde: An Early Conquest Succession Game

[Jokemaster]

I'll be playing next and I expect to have my turns done today.

EDIT: I'm done. Here is my log. This will be my first experience with true ICS... tips and RCC are welcomed.


2500 BC (turn 0) Switch Kara worker to ocean, settler still completed next turn (+1b, +1g, -1f) Looking back at it, I'm not sure if it was a good idea... does science is taken into account before or after the growth/disgrowth of a city? Enter...

2450 BC (turn 1) Kara Settlers, Start road at (30, 22) Horsemen uncovers some plains behind the mountains. Enter...

2400 BC (turn 2) Road at (30, 22) finished. Start road at (31, 25) Find another hut after going in the plain square... not used to restrain popping. Find another river behind the mountain range.

2350 BC (turn 3) Bokhara settlers, will regrow next turn. Decide to build at (31, 17) River is 5 squares long and amidst rough terrain. Explorers seem very worthwhile right now.

2300 BC (turn 4) Build Nishapur at (31, 17) Build Kashgar at (29, 21) Extra unhappiness at Samarkand already covered by Warrior. Nishapur unhappy too... will altern between riot and Elvis to get some shields for a Warrior.

2250 BC (turn 5) Civil disorder in Nishapur, Elvis. Discover Code of Laws: start Monarchy. Tech rate 60: 6b/t (7 if we count rioting Nishapur) Switch workers in Sam and Kar. Rush 6s in Kar, 4s in Bok. Gold down to 14.

2200 BC (turn 6) Order re-established in Nishapur. Sam grows and builds Warrior, starts settler. 7/60b for Mon.

2150 BC (turn 7) Nish riots, 14/60b. Rush 1s in Kashgar.

2100 BC (turn 8) Order Nish, rush Warrior (14g) Build Tabriz at (30, 28) starts warrior for future unrest control. No additional city in disorder. Horsemen explores prairie/plains/desert patch SW of mountains/river.

2050 BC (turn 9) Barbs at (14, 22)!!! Archers, so it came from a boat. There’s civ in that range somewhere (I did not got any warning message of barbs landing) Discover another hut at (29, 47) 29/60b. Making 8b per turn, Mon in 4 turns, so we should be able to get it in 1850 BC (which is an oedo year btw... instant revolution very probable because no city of ours will build any Settlers anytime soon) Rush 5s in Madrid. Nish warrior.

2000 BC (turn 10) Barbs move East, see green Warrior attack the Archer and die. Discover river SE of (29, 47) hut.

1950 BC (turn 11) Oops, forgot I was only playing 10 turns... anyways, Barb archer moves 1 square south, at (16, 24) Get a ‘’Zulu civ destroyed by barbs’’ message. That helps. Guess we’ll have to prepare a dip soon.

So because of the destroying of the Zulus, we might have to detour to Writing and build a dip before Zimbabwe builds too much barb archers that will hinder our expansion. Checking Top 5 cities display tells Zimbabwe is size 2 right now. After bribing/conquering Zim (it would cost, right now, 104g... not something we have right now, so taking it by force is also an option, but remember we want to storm the city, not sack it) we can build a few explorers to pop the huts our horsemen left behind in the pre-Mon period.

We have 45/60b for Monarchy, and at 1950 BC. Next oedo year is 1850 BC, and we are making 8b per turn. We should have an instant revolution if we do not pop any huts. No city is close to building settlers, so that will not be a factor.

For Kara, I'd rush 4s next turn, and rb the Settler when the food box will be full (in 3 turns) Tabriz will build a warrior next turn: it can be moved in Kara if we don't want to rush. Speaking of Tabriz, it should switch to Ocean this turn for +1b and +1g (warrior will be built anyway) That change would cause Bokhara to discover Monarchy, leaving Sam and Kar in Anarchy for a turn. However, Sam already has 2 warriors as garrison, and I don't think anarchy would cause any problems in this city.

Kashgar will have a full food box in 3 turns and grow to size 2 in a few turns. We will have to have a settler rbd when the food box is full, OR...

if Monarchy, in 2 turns, lowers the riot factor in Samarkand (we have 6 cities, so it should happen) we can move one of Sam's warriors in Kashgar and allow the city to grow to size 2 without unrest or Elvis. If a post-Mon hut gives an advanced tribe, we may have to revert to option Rush if the extra unrest takes a toll in Sam.

Nishapur will have a new warrior done in 3 turns. Mon will probably lower the RF in that city, so I would use that warrior for hut popping in our homeland east of our cities and exploring the unexplored NE passage near the (37, 15) hut.

I am not sure if roading (29, 19) would be worth it. It would connect Bokhara and Nishapur to the road network, but the road might take some time, and would not give any trade, because it goes thru a jungle square.

I haven't moved any units during this turn because I was not supposed to play that turn in the first place... sorry.


Oh, and just noticed landmass 2 5-6 squares south of Karakorum and 1 square east.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I noticed that if Samarkand works forest we still get 4 shield production.

I am not sure if roading (29, 19) would be worth it. It would connect Bokhara and Nishapur to the road network, but the road might take some time, and would not give any trade, because it goes thru a jungle square.

I'm pretty sure that roading the jungle would not be worth it. It would save about a turn of travel time to Bokhara only, and I doubt we'll be having much traffic in that direction for a while (and, given our geography, if we do, it would be quicker to transport by trireme to most possible destinations). IF we build a road to connect Nishapur, I would build it on (31, 21) which would bring it closer to the eastern section of river.

 

[Peaster]

Our civ is growing very nicely! I played this round just for comparison, and found no real differences from jokemaster. Very minor diffs = I built one more warrior, I placed Nishapur at (30,16), preferring grass and to save a turn (but jokemaster's site is adjacent to a good road). Not sure if he tried for the horseman's "nearest city" info, but I'd recommend doing that anytime you explore - it's free!

I'd recommend moving several workers around, including the Sam one that Prof mentioned, and the Tabriz worker to grass. I'd move the Bok worker from river to forest if/when we are 100% sure of monarchy in 1850.

Plans for the next round will be clearer after monarchy, but roughly I'd suggest: 1) going for curr, trade and/or maps; maybe seafaring for explorers. If all goes well, we'll build MPE, get pots from an AI (and maybe even maps), and build HG before we grow too big. 2) pop lots of huts soon after monarchy. The new govt may free up a warrior or two. If not, let's build 1-2 for huts. 3) I haven't thought thru the next settlers carefully, but we might road (31,21) [I agree it is too soon to road the jungle] and build at (35,19), maybe send one settler west from Bokhara. I don't see an ideal site there, but (25,15) makes a canal, so it's OK.

The more I look at 1950BC, the more urgent HG seems. We'll have +4 settlers soon, which means approx 10 cities within about 10 turns. After that, most new settlers will have to work or travel, instead of building new cities, until HG. With boats, that should be OK for a while, but our citizens could get nasty without pots. I guess we can pop some huts and try for MPE for a while, to see what happens. But we may have to focus on this soon, especially if people want to keep ICSing past 10 cities (which I'd recommend).

Edit: Forgot to mention the barbs; the Wri/dip plan is good, but less urgent than MPE/HG. I'm not too worried about a barb invasion from the West yet. We might send a warrior towards the hut at (23,19), with the secondary idea of spotting stray barbs early. Also, exposing blackened tiles seems to help vs barbs - I am not sure of the game mechanics on that, just a feeling based on experience.

Also, some players prefer to pop huts with horsemen instead of warriors - either way seems OK to me (I slightly prefer warriors).

 

[mackerel]

Bokhara's settler will be done in 4 turns, can build on (35,19) after 3 turns, or (25,15) 4-8 turns later depending on road-building stops.
Samarkand settler is done in 5 turns, can build at (39,23) 5 turns later traveling overland.
Karakorum settler takes 8 turns at the current rate, or switch to forest in 2 turns and it finishes in 6, and can build at (36,22) 5 turns later.
Kashgar settler is ready in 6 turns, can build at (35,19) 7 turns later if it stops to make one road.

I think we're best off sending Bokhara's settler west, and plant 3 cities along the river.
Should we start Samarkand producing the Colossus soon, to build up shields for HG?

 

[Magic_gorter]

Who is playing next? Are there other players around who want to play or will we start round 2?

 

[Prof. Garfield]

Who is playing next? Are there other players around who want to play or will we start round 2?

Blasph23 and Haleewud played the last game, but haven't indicated if they are available for this game. I'll give them a week and if there is no word (or they both decline to play) then I will start the second round. New players are also welcome.

Plans for the next round will be clearer after monarchy, but roughly I'd suggest: 1) going for curr, trade and/or maps; maybe seafaring for explorers. If all goes well, we'll build MPE, get pots from an AI (and maybe even maps), and build HG before we grow too big. 2) pop lots of huts soon after monarchy. The new govt may free up a warrior or two. If not, let's build 1-2 for huts. 3) I haven't thought thru the next settlers carefully, but we might road (31,21) [I agree it is too soon to road the jungle] and build at (35,19), maybe send one settler west from Bokhara. I don't see an ideal site there, but (25,15) makes a canal, so it's OK.

The more I look at 1950BC, the more urgent HG seems. We'll have +4 settlers soon, which means approx 10 cities within about 10 turns. After that, most new settlers will have to work or travel, instead of building new cities, until HG. With boats, that should be OK for a while, but our citizens could get nasty without pots. I guess we can pop some huts and try for MPE for a while, to see what happens. But we may have to focus on this soon, especially if people want to keep ICSing past 10 cities (which I'd recommend).

Bokhara's settler will be done in 4 turns, can build on (35,19) after 3 turns, or (25,15) 4-8 turns later depending on road-building stops.
Samarkand settler is done in 5 turns, can build at (39,23) 5 turns later traveling overland.
Karakorum settler takes 8 turns at the current rate, or switch to forest in 2 turns and it finishes in 6, and can build at (36,22) 5 turns later.
Kashgar settler is ready in 6 turns, can build at (35,19) 7 turns later if it stops to make one road.

I think we're best off sending Bokhara's settler west, and plant 3 cities along the river.
Should we start Samarkand producing the Colossus soon, to build up shields for HG?

I would tech as quickly as possible for trade, and try to get it soon enough to switch settler production to caravans. We need 8 caravans for MPE and Hanging Gardens, so that should tie up city production for a little while (provided we can get Trade before most cities hit 40s). We'll still be able to build cities with a couple settlers before running into the 12 city "limit." The rest can then work or walk.

In my opinion, the next few cities should all be packed onto the river. That should massively increase science production (getting us to Trade ASAP), and those cities will also be closer to the capital. I would not build at (25,15), the canal site, for a while yet. There are better city sites at the moment, and we don't need a canal until the turn we actually want to send something through it (and, given the remoteness of the "exit" the canal would create, I'm wondering if it would be better to just build a few cities on the ocean and use them as our trireme homes).

I ran the probability of being given Currency from a hut after we get Monarchy, and the chance, given that we get a tech, is about 1/4 (24/93). However, once we get Currency, the chance of getting Feudalism jumps to over 1/3 (33/93) (up from 9/93), unless we get something giving a pre-req for something a little earlier in alphabetical order (I think only masonry, which happens to have a 1/93 chance in a hut). But, once we get HG, we may not need warriors, and trade will have a 19/93 probability.

Hut popping while researching Currency seems like a good idea, though someone will have to check the availability of Trade due to the cycle.

 

[Peaster]

I think we're best off sending Bokhara's settler west, and plant 3 cities along the river. Should we start Samarkand producing the Colossus soon, to build up shields for HG?

Bok: Agreed. As a general rule in ICS, it's better to send Settlers outwards, in this case westwards. I partially agree with Prof G, that the canal site is not ideal, (mainly because it is on plains) but what's better ? I think the river valley will fill up soon, and going West much further than the canal is slow, and risks meeting the barbs unprepared.

Sam: I usually prefer WoWs from vans, because they are more flexible. If we could time the WoW perfectly, to coincide with Sam having 50 shields, or 100 shields, that might be best. But for me, huts, etc, make that kind of exact planning too difficult.

About techs towards Trade: This is another thing I doubt we can plan out exactly in advance, especially if we also want to pop many huts. With luck, we may get good techs like Curr, Maps or Pots. With bad luck, our tech costs go up a bit (fairly likely), and we may have to research an extra off-path tech (fairly unlikely). I suggest we just cross our fingers and pop until we get near Trade - unless someone has a better plan, of course.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

We can fit 3 cities on the river, or 4 if we don't mind building on shield grassland. We also have access to a whale in the east. With the river to aid transportation, I think we should fill that area up first (in the absence of a river, I would agree to moving west first since travel time to the east would be way too long), and I would include the settler from Bokhara. The river squares and the whale square should be enough for our next "wave" of settlers.

There are a couple grassland tiles on north ocean shore which have access to a forest tile, so one city could go there, and there is another tile south of the hut which has access to forest and Iron, although it would have to share with other cities.

Based on the resources of that city alone, I wouldn't be in any hurry to settle the location, and, at the moment, the prospect of a canal doesn't increase the urgency of settling there.

 

[haleewud]

Later next week, I should be able to play. Right now I have six turns of GOTM 117 that I have to finish by Monday.

 

[haleewud]

I have played my turns. I tried to follow as much of the advice as I could.

1950BC (1) The horse moves along the river toward the east and finds another hut (at 35,49). I move the worker in Samarkand to the forest. I did not move the worker in Tabriz to the ocean. Although doing that would give an extra tax, when the trigger point moves up we would lose a tax during the next year.

1900BC (2) During the year end processing, I notice that the hut at 37,15 has disappeared. Looks like we have company. Tabriz builds warrior and starts settler, Horse moves along river but returns to starting point to be ready to pop the hut after Monarchy is discovered.

1850BC (3) Monarchy discovered, start Currency, Revolution, Monarchy established. Move Bokhara workers to forst and buffalo to finish the settler next turn. Move Samarkand warrior Kashgar for happiness control. Horse pops hut at 35,49 Ancient Scrolls (Currency), Very lucky.

1800BC (4) Start Trade, Bokhara builds settler, Nishapur builds warrior. Nishapur warrior moves on river and meets Spanish warrior. Spanish has 2 spears and what looks like 5 techs (2 applied, 2 military and 1 social) I sign peace treaty and demand tribute, they give 100 gold. We are Supreme. Bokhara settler moves west.

1750BC (5) Bokhara Settler builds road. Nishapur settler moves on river and pops hut at 35,21. A Horseman unit results. The horse moves on the river toward the hut at 41,23. Move workers in several cities.

1700BC (6) Kashgar, Samarkand and Karakorum produce settlers. Settlers move (Samarkand settler moves 1 road square and then charges). Horse pops hut at 41,23 gets 50 gold. Nishapur warrior moves north to investigate Spanish. RB Nishapur (6sh), Tabriz (1sh) and Bokhara (4sh)

1650BC (7) Spanish warrior disappears and phalanx appears. Karakorum settler roads, other settlers move. Horse moves back toward west.

1600BC (8) Samarkand and Bokhara settlers build roads. Rb Tabriz (7sh), Bokhara (6sh), Kashgar (4sh) and Samarkand (6sh).

1550BC (9) Nishapur settler builds road. Karakorum and Samarkand settlers begin to move toward river. Tabriz Warrior moves back to Tabriz for happiness Control.

1500BC (10) Spanish troops move, I move our warrior to the north one more square. I can now see 2 Spanish warriors and 1 phalanx. Karakorum and Samarkand settlers continue to move toward river.


The Bokhara settler at 26,16 has not moved for my turn. I will let the next player move it. I see two possibilities. One is to move to the canal site and build the city. The other is to move to the shielded grass, build road and then move further west to build. The Samarkand settler is on the river and could build at 36,22 next turn. The Nishapur and Karakorum settlers can move onto the river and could build the turn after. I believe the science box has 74 of 84 beakers. Trade should be discovered next turn. At that point I would think some or all of the settlers being built will be switched to vans. A warrior can be built in Karakorum next turn (it doesn't have one), but the worker could also be moved to the iron, halting the growth of the city until a latter date.

After popping the hut for Currency in 1850BC, the southern horse continued to explore. It is currently next to a hut at 42,60.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I'll play tomorrow unless Blasph23 shows up and says he'll play.

Personally, I would have built a few less roads and made cities, but otherwise a solid set of turns.

I think the best way to proceed is to build 3 more cities on the river instead of squeezing in the extra city by building on some shield grassland; we can potentially get 3 extra shields per turn this way, depending on the size of cities (that is, if all the shield squares were worked) in exchange for one less city on a river.

The first order of business (besides making cities with the settlers) is, I think, to build Marco Polo's Embassy. This will let us make a more comprehensive plan. We'll be able to get techs we need, and get an idea of what techs we'll have to research ourselves. I would raise taxes and spend down the treasury in an effort to get it done sooner. In the meantime, I'd research mapmaking, in the event that no others have discovered it.

We should then start work on caravans for HG.

The Spanish are a tricky problem. They already have 3 units uncomfortably close to us. I'm seriously tempted to suffer a turn of disorder in Nishapur in order to move the warrior out and restrict Spanish movement. I don't think things will progress beyond that in the next turnset.

Question: if we happen to get The Wheel from a hut, how effective would chariots be in a conquest? They're cheaper than elephants, but pack a substantially smaller punch. I'm wondering if they would work if we attack the Spanish early enough (though the fact that they are exploring with a phalanx might imply that they have enough of them to stop chariots). The alternative would be to build a phalanx and fortify on a hill or something.

 

[Peaster]

Haleewud: The Bokhara settler at 26,16 has not moved for my turn. I will let the next player move it. I see two possibilities. One is to move to the canal site and build the city. The other is to move to the shielded grass, build road and then move further west to build. The Samarkand settler is on the river and could build at 36,22 next turn. The Nishapur and Karakorum settlers can move onto the river and could build the turn after. I believe the science box has 74 of 84 beakers. Trade should be discovered next turn. At that point I would think some or all of the settlers being built will be switched to vans. A warrior can be built in Karakorum next turn (it doesn't have one), but the worker could also be moved to the iron, halting the growth of the city until a latter date.

At first glance, I like these sites; (35,19), (36,22), (39,25) and (25,15). The canal location has been debated a bit and both options seem reasonable - to build there now or to wait and see (eg go further West). But going further seems risky to me ... we haven't gotten any nearest city info yet, but I think one player spotted bad guys in this direction.

IMO we have enough warriors for the moment (cities connected by roads and rivers can "share militia") so I'd plan to let Kar produce a van. But see below, about the Spanish, to see if you agree that our defenses are OK. It would not be crazy-bad to build an extra warrior.

I played 2000BC to 1500BC, and had different hut results, so we can't compare perfectly, but I did collect 150g from hut+tribute, just as you did. I spent all but 80g on partial rushes, and got each settler out approx 1 turn faster on average (to me, saving a turn like this is fairly important). I had a city at (35,19) already in 1500BC, and repelled several Spanish with an "Insist you withdraw". I built approx the same roads. I had an extra advanced tribe, but didn't get Currency (nice!).

BTW - good decision to keep Tabriz workers on ocean. I didn't notice until today that this would've delayed Monarchy.

Personally, I would have built a few less roads and made cities, but otherwise a solid set of turns.

I don't know if there is a "right answer" about roads, but I agree with haleewud here, because: 1) We may need to defend our NE or NW borders at any moment, and roads allow that with minimal total defensive forces (we might bring the horse at (23,17) back to the road network for that, maybe after one more hut). 2) We will be collecting vans for MPE soon and roads will speed that. 3) I'm concerned that we may have an excess of cities and settlers soon if we cannot build HG fairly quickly. Not really an excess, but they may have less-than-normal value.

I'd agree that we don't need more internal roads for a while. Short roads to the NE or NW are debatable. I think building those might be safer than simply sending a lone settler out to build a city asap, partly because we have good reasons to expect encounters.

I think the best way to proceed is to build 3 more cities on the river instead of squeezing in the extra city by building on some shield grassland; we can potentially get 3 extra shields per turn this way, depending on the size of cities (that is, if all the shield squares were worked) in exchange for one less city on a river.

I haven't analyzed this carefully, but tend to agree. In the early game, each city should have access to at least one shielded grass tile, if possible. For ICS, a city doesn't really need two (at size two, all workers want to move to forest/etc). "Sharing" (alternating) is possible, when cities have different sizes. So you can pack ICS cities pretty tight, but in our case, I don't see a good way to get 4 more.

The first order of business (besides making cities with the settlers) is, I think, to build Marco Polo's Embassy. This will let us make a more comprehensive plan. We'll be able to get techs we need, and get an idea of what techs we'll have to research ourselves. I would raise taxes and spend down the treasury in an effort to get it done sooner. In the meantime, I'd research mapmaking, in the event that no others have discovered it.

We should then start work on caravans for HG.

I agree with all this, gambling that we can get pots soon from MPE or a hut.

The Spanish are a tricky problem. They already have 3 units uncomfortably close to us. I'm seriously tempted to suffer a turn of disorder in Nishapur in order to move the warrior out and restrict Spanish movement. I don't think things will progress beyond that in the next turnset.

I am not too worried about the visible Spanish units, since they attack at "1" (also, we are at peace, and they are the weaker civ, so a sneak seems unlikely). I think we can proceed by building a bridge-city at (35,19), insisting any Spanish intruders withdraw, and calling back our horseman if needed.

Let's NOT allow a Spanish unit onto the mt at (35,17). I think we should fortify our warrior (on plains unfortunately) until our bridge city can rush a warrior to move onto the mt, and hold the NW. Then re-position the plains guy. Or, if ZOC allows it, just move the plains guy to the mt instead.

There is a chance the Spanish will invade towards Nishapur, but a) we can "Insist", and b) a fortified warrior on river is fairly secure and c) in the long term, we can expect dips/ele's, etc to resolve such an invasion.

If the Spanish sneak and defeat our plains guy (which seems unlikely), I think we can still shift our militia NW-wards, and hold on until we can RB an army.

IMO "Insist" is less likely to provoke a war than "Demand tribute" (not quite sure of the odds). Once we have arranged solid defences, I'd prefer to "Demand", which often results in a withdrawal, or better.

Question: if we happen to get The Wheel from a hut, how effective would chariots be in a conquest? They're cheaper than elephants, but pack a substantially smaller punch. I'm wondering if they would work if we attack the Spanish early enough (though the fact that they are exploring with a phalanx might imply that they have enough of them to stop chariots). The alternative would be to build a phalanx and fortify on a hill or something.

Non-vet Chariots are pretty effective at this stage against anything less than a phalanx with plusses (from fortifying or terrain), and they are approx as cost-effective as elephants. So, I think this is a plausible plan. But, we don't actually know where the Spanish cities are yet, or how to get there, and we don't have dips, boats or barracks to help the plan succeed. IMO we should stay cool about the Spanish, unless they sneak, or until we are better prepared to invade them.

Polytheism is not that far off, even without MPE help. Maps and Pots have a higher priority [maybe also Seaf and/or Wri ?] but if we really need Poly we can get it reasonably soon.

In my opinon, the game is going very well. We'll have 10 cities and MPE soon, and [with a little luck] a timely HG to allow more growth. We may not need LH for a while, and should have many good options wrt techs, production and expansion.

 

[haleewud]

In my original post (I have edited it), I said "I do not move the worker". I should have said "I did not move the worker".

BTW - good decision to keep Tabriz workers on ocean. I didn't notice until today that this would've delayed Monarchy.

Moving or not moving the worker didn't have any effect on which turn Monarchy was discovered. It just changed which city would trigger the discovery (and the resulting choice of revolution). If I had moved the worker to the ocean, Tabriz would have earned an extra beaker and an extra tax in 1900. But the discovery of Monarchy would have been triggered by an earlier city. After we chose to REVOLT, the last 2 cities would have gone into Anarchy. So those cities would not produce any tax. So the tax we gained in Tabriz in 1900 would be lost in 1850 by the earlier anarchy.

So basically moving or not moving the worker made no difference, so I just chose to do nothing.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

(0) 1500 BC: With the pending addition of 4 cities to the empire, I expect that the riot factor will start to take a hit. Will continue producing a warrior in Karakorum, and will switch Kashgar and Samarkand to horsemen, which should help cover any difficulties. Juggle production so that Kashgar will finish the horse next turn, and Samarkand the turn after. Rush 2s in Tabriz so that the city will have 30 shields, and so complete a caravan in 5 turns. Move settler to canal spot.

(1) 1450 BC: A Spanish warrior appears to move back towards home, another moves out of sight but closer to our territory. Trade, begin Map Making (over Feudalism, Iron Working, Polytheism, The Wheel and Writing). (23, 19) hut: legion (supported from Bokhara). Good, a unit for martial law and, potentially, defence. Move both units back towards home. Build Aleppo, first citizen unhappy, set production to warrior, work the forest. Build Kabul, citizen content, set production to warrior. Karakorum, Tabriz, Kashgar now suffering from the Riot Factor. Send warrior from Samarkand to Tabriz. Horseman from Kashgar to Bokhara allows Bokhara warrior to travel to Aleppo and keep order, thanks to Haleewud’s road. Will be shuffling production around for the next couple turns, and won’t mention most of it. Rush 7 shields in Nishapur. Attempted ZOC move reveals the way the warriors moved; one is indeed closer to home, the other on a hill touching the coast by the corner; fortify the warrior. (42, 60) hut: 7 barb horsemen and a legion surround our exploring horseman, who kills one of the horsemen. Rush 2s in Bokhara. Taxes to 70%.

(2) 1400 BC: Horseman dies to barbs, Spanish warrior furthest into our territory moves back towards Spain, as does Phalanx, replacing itself with a warrior. Samarkand horse. Build Ormuz, Basra. Bokhara, Nishapur and Basra suffer from riot factor. Militia shuffle, but Basra will still descend into disorder. Plan to put Caravans into MPE in Kashgar in 4 turns. Rush 7s in Kashgar.

(3) 1350 BC: Spanish tell me they have The Wheel, move a warrior westward again. Chinese begin Pyramids. As expected, disorder in Basra. Nishapur dye caravan. Rush 7 more shields in Kashgar. Rush 2s in Bokhara. Militia shuffle again, including moving Kabul Warrior to Basra. We’re mighty in the Foreign affairs screen (as we were on turn 0).

(4) 1300 BC: Order in Basra. Departure of Spanish units allows me to move warriors to hills; I think this would “trap” one warrior, but if he wanders into a city radius, I can request withdrawal. Ormuz warrior. Rush 17 shields in Kashgar. Rush 7s in Nishapur.

(5) 1250 BC: Tabriz caravan. Bokhara caravan. Move “border warrior” off the hills and onto plains in the hope that the Spanish warrior will take the opportunity to leave. Aleppo, Samarkand and Karakorum build warriors, and I now seem to have enough units for martial law.

(6) 1200 BC: Kashgar Caravan. 4 Caravans to Kashgar for MPE. Rush 4s in Nishapur, 4s in Karakorum. Kabul warrior. We are now supreme.

(7) 1150 BC: Kashgar builds Marco Polo’s Embassy. Basra warriors. Spend treasury down from 115g to 46g. Diplomacy: Peace with Everyone. Romans: Give Trade, Warrior Code; get Map Making, Pottery, Maps. Vikings: Give Bronze Working, Trade; get Writing Maps. Chinese: give Writing, Get Maps. Spanish: Give Map Making, Pottery, get Maps. Carthaginians: Give Map Making, get Maps. We seem to share a continent with everyone except the Carthaginians, though for traveling purposes, the Vikings might as well be on a separate continent (in any case, I think triremes will be the most effective means of transportation). This means, however, that we should be able to get a decent amount of tribute.

(8) 1100 BC: Vikings get Masonry. Begin Polytheism (seafaring was a tempting choice, but Poly is more essential). Demand tribute from the Romans, but they ignore threats. Spanish give 25g in tribute. Spend treasury from 88 to 55g.

(9) 1050 BC: Spend from 72g to 23g.

(10) Spanish Contact, but I don’t want to trade techs. Nishapur dye caravan. I don’t spend money or move units this turn, preferring to leave it to the next player, who will probably have a clearer idea of what they want to accomplish.

Notes:

I should first say that Haleewud’s roads proved much more useful than I expected. The first few turns involved a lot of militia moving to try to keep order after building the set of new cities, and the roads allowed me to move shuffle units effectively in order to keep pace with city growth and militia production.

It turns out that there are a few potential canal sites that are much more useful than Aleppo (I suspected that might be the case). Most civs are on our continent (even the Vikings) so we can hopefully get money to fund our growth and conquest from demanding tribute. I haven’t demanded of the Vikings or the Chinese yet. The Vikings have literacy, which we will want if we decide to go for Monotheism and Crusaders, and it will probably be easier to trade for before we demand tribute. I’ve waited on the Chinese because we might want to build cities close to them (especially a canal city), and I don’t know if we want to aggravate them too much.

Getting to the Carthaginians is going to be most difficult. We’ll either have to find a series of lakes that we can use in order to get to the main ocean near them (by building canal cites), or we’ll have to build cities (and boats) on the south shore in order to reach them, and transport the elephants at least partially overland.

We have a caravan at the moment, with another to be completed next turn, and one the turn after it. There is also one 3 turns from completion in Bokhara, although it might be better to make a settler in that city. It shouldn’t be too hard to get HG in a relatively short time, and then crank out the settlers. I’m building a trireme in Tabriz, which should send out a unit to pop all the huts in relatively short order, I think. Kabul, Basra and Aleppo are currently building settlers.

 

[Peaster]

(0) 1500 BC: With the pending addition of 4 cities to the empire, I expect that the riot factor will start to take a hit. Will continue producing a warrior in Karakorum, and will switch Kashgar and Samarkand to horsemen, which should help cover any difficulties. Juggle production so that Kashgar will finish the horse next turn, and Samarkand the turn after. Rush 2s in Tabriz so that the city will have 30 shields, and so complete a caravan in 5 turns. Move settler to canal spot.

I played these turns to 1100BC, with fewer militia (10 vs 14) though I needed several Elvii... not sure what's the best number. I don't think we need the 2 new horses as much as we need vans/etc. After 1 hut, I returned the horse near Allepo for defense, and it was approx enough, even though I was invaded by sea barbs in the south.

Also, I RB'd pretty aggressively and got MPE a bit earlier (or would have, except that I used vans to hold off the sea barbs a couple of turns).

I don't understand why nobody is reporting "nearest city" info! It can be very useful before MPE and AI maps. And even after that, it can ID new AI cities.

(1) 1450 BC: A Spanish warrior .... Taxes to 70%.

I agree about the taxes and other remarks, but I think you are too worried about the Spanish; we can probably hold them off with one warrior fortified on mts.

(2) 1400 BC: Horseman dies to barbs, Spanish warrior furthest into our territory moves back towards Spain, as does Phalanx, replacing itself with a warrior. Samarkand horse. Build Ormuz, Basra.
...
1350; As expected, disorder in Basra.

I had slightly better hut luck (25g+legion). IMO Basra should be on the ocean for a nice eastern port (despite the lost shield). We do have decent ports already, but Basra would probably be a turn closer to the AI.

I'm curious why you didn't use an Elvis in Bosra to prevent disorder if you saw a red hat (you may be correct - I haven't really analyzed this decision). I had about 3 Elvii total at this stage, but hoping to reduce that number soon.

1150 BC: Kashgar builds Marco Polo’s Embassy. Basra warriors. Spend treasury down from 115g to 46g. Diplomacy: Peace with Everyone. Romans: Give Trade, Warrior Code; get Map Making, Pottery, Maps. Vikings: Give Bronze Working, Trade; get Writing Maps. Chinese: give Writing, Get Maps. Spanish: Give Map Making, Pottery, get Maps. Carthaginians: Give Map Making, get Maps. We seem to share a continent with everyone except the Carthaginians, though for traveling purposes, the Vikings might as well be on a separate continent (in any case, I think triremes will be the most effective means of transportation). This means, however, that we should be able to get a decent amount of tribute.

Here we differed greatly, though some of that may be luck. By refusing peace at first, I got 150g from the Romans and 200g from the Vikings (and 25g tribute from Spain). Of course, it is possible we'll get the same tribute sooner or later in our game, though I'd prefer sooner. I also got all maps and many techs: pots, wri, lit, mas and mys. Some of these were given as tribute. Again, these techs won't "go away" and I think we can easily get poly+phil+mono in time for EC.

1100 BC: Begin Polytheism (seafaring was a tempting choice, but Poly is more essential). Demand tribute from the Romans, but they ignore threats.

I agree that Poly vs Seaf is a tough choice. IIRC one of the AI was researching Seaf (in my game anyway) so maybe we can get it soon that way. I am a little surprised the Romans refused you after being so easy with me (?). From experience, I feel it is generally better to avoid cease fires and peace (unless paid well) but I don't have any clear proof.

Notes: It turns out that there are a few potential canal sites that are much more useful than Aleppo (I suspected that might be the case).

...I’ve waited on the Chinese because we might want to build cities close to them

Which canal sites ? I think Aleppo may turn out better, partly because it already exists! We could start building a boat there now, load it with settlers and move out towards the Vikings and/or Carths within 10 turns. Admittedly it is unclear whether we'll have sea routes to both these civs, but the odds seem good that we can get to at least one this way.

I generally demand tribute unless there is an immediate danger. If the Chinese declare war in the next 5-10 turns, we can probably get paid for a cease fire before we need it. (Or we send elephants).

Getting to the Carthaginians is going to be most difficult. We’ll either have to find a series of lakes that we can use in order to get to the main ocean near them (by building canal cites), or we’ll have to build cities (and boats) on the south shore in order to reach them, and transport the elephants at least partially overland.

This is one of our most pressing problems (after building HG). I'd bet mainly on the Aleppo route, but would like a "Plan B" such as yours. Another idea is to push thru the Chinese [or Romans] to get to the Carth sea asap.

The Romans will not be easy to reach either. We might send a flotilla with 2 settlers towards (42,48). If we have no route to the Carths by then, we can move a flot-settler south for a port on ocean "1" [eg Prof G's plan]. If we have found a better plan for the Carths by then, we can use the units on the Romans instead.

This is an interesting period, where we need to set priorities and act decisively. IMO we should

1) Finish HG asap, so we can relax about militia and more ICS growth.
2) Continue ICS, up to at least 20 cities, preferably expanding in good directions; S towards Rome, SE towards Shanghai (and canal cities), NW from Alleppo hoping for outposts near the Viks, and a good route to the Carths.
3) Build a decent navy, proportional to our size and needs. I'm thinking approx 6 boats within 20 turns. They'll mainly haul settlers for a while, later elephants. I don't see much need for more roads soon.
4) Keep taxes at 70 and get tribute! And keep size-2-city workers [eg Alleppo] on forests if poss. Don't hoard gold - spend most of it.

Minor/Optional ....
a) Consider 1-2 barracks, approx in time with Poly.
b) Consider Seaf/explorers for fast hut pops and map info in the SW.
c) Disband our legion. A dip would be more useful for defense.
d) Probably omit LH and vans for trade. After HG, I guess our next WoW - if any - will be Mike's or SunTzu (?).
e) Probably ignore the Spanish military until later. I think China can also wait, unless we decide to use it as a gateway to Carthage. Consider 1-2 fast units [dip, ele] to defend our homeland, not urgent.
f) I expect our central cities will seem far from the action soon, and thus be less useful than outposts. They will still produce settlers, boats and taxes, but most of our RB money should probably be spent in outposts. Use your judgement, of course.
g) If Basra makes a settler, I like (42,24) for an eastern port.
h) We are making 6 vans, but only need 3 more for HG.
i) Maybe an outpost at (19,25) connected by river to a port at(16,26) which will build boat(s). Maybe this is fastest towards Carth ?

 

[Magic_gorter]

I will try playing tomorrow....

I was also thinking about canal cities at 54,28 and/or 57,35.

They can be used to get to the Vikings and perhaps the Carths....

The ocean at the nortwest near the Vikings is #2. So reaching them via Aleppo is not easy. Using the canalcities I mention above make it a lot easier and we can use them also to get to all other civs (except the Romans).

Reaching the romans I think (by blackclicking) we can get close to Rome via canalcities at 53,39 ; 52,44 ; 50,46 and 49,49.

And by building at 39,55 and hoping that the ocean can be reached with 1 canalcity we can reach the Carths pretty easy.

@Peaster.....how do you think about this plan to reach the Romans/Carths and the Vikings?

I will read the post of Peaster again tomorrow and decide than how I think we can play best.

 

[mackerel]

58,22 looks like a good canal to get to the vikings, but proximity to china and spain may cause diplomatic issues before we're ready.

As long as we're talking about ICS and settling explosively, why not send a colony ship south from Tabriz and pepper the coast with new cities? When those produce settlers, we expand toward Rome and Carthage.

 

[Peaster]

I was also thinking about canal cities at 54,28 and/or 57,35.They can be used to get to the Vikings and perhaps the Carths....

The ocean at the nortwest near the Vikings is #2. So reaching them via Aleppo is not easy. Using the canalcities I mention above make it a lot easier and we can use them also to get to all other civs (except the Romans).

I like 54,28 mainly for a route to Beijing, and it's a good "Plan B" for some other civs. It's a long and uncertain path to Carthage though.

An Option to Consider: Currently Shanghai is size 3 and contains only one warrior. A trireme with 2 horsemen, for example, has a very good chance of taking that city, allowing us to build boats on that coast and move on, even without (or before) a canal. For a canal at 54,28 we need to take out Shanghai anyway. A safer option is 57,35 but we'd need to defend it.

I disagree about the Vikings. Their capital is on ocean 1, probably easiest to approach from the SE (from Alleppo). We could come in from the SW instead, or try it both ways. We don't have enough map info to be sure which route is better. Either way, I'd suggest carrying settlers, rather than ellies, to allow emergency canals. Also, I'd give priority to Carthage until we've found a route there.

Reaching the romans I think (by blackclicking) we can get close to Rome via canalcities at 53,39 ; 52,44 ; 50,46 and 49,49.

We can get as close by sailing directly to 42,48. Either way, there are approx 10 land tiles to cross, which is slower and more risky than boats. We might eventually send a boat south of Rome to explore for a closer landing; then ferry in troops from the Beijing or Carthage campaigns, if one of those finishes early.

I'd probably make an outpost+barracks at/near 42,48, and send a 2nd settler in closer from there. Send out explorers/etc from 42,48 for huts and map info. Keep an eye out for chances to get boat(s) or explorers south of Rome. I still like 19,25 + 16,26 as an option to get into the western seas quickly.

And by building at 39,55 and hoping that the ocean can be reached with 1 canal city we can reach the Carths pretty easy. I will read the post of Peaster again tomorrow and decide than how I think we can play best.

I don't see the idea of 39,55 yet. Is that to get from Rome to Carthage ?

I think our EC priority #1 is to get into the western sea via Alleppo and/or 16,26 and to send 2 to 4 settlers south that way if possible. We'll probably find better places for Roman outposts later (maybe approx 44,64 ... hard to say yet). Also, if anyone wants to work van trade with Carthage into this game, that seems the way to go. I don't think such vans will be a big factor here, but they might help when tribute dries up.

Then [#2], invade near Shanghai and/or 42,48. By then, we can hope to know more of the map and may adjust our plans.

I'm betting our land mass doesn't connect to the north pole. We could send a boat [or horse?] a few tiles north from Alleppo to check, before loading up settlers. But this seems a small risk - a blocked flotilla could just return south with little harm done.

If you really don't like the western-sea plan, we could make a beeline for Beijing via Shanghai; then hope to expand from there to Rome/Carthage, but that looks longer to me.

 

[Magic_gorter]

Played my turns and try to stick to the plan of Peaster:

preturn 1000 bc: rearranged some vans to settler/trireme
turn 1 975 bc: first trireme build (Chinese got Trade)
turn 2 950 bc: trireme is heading to Aleppo / part RB settler near Basra for harborcity
turn 3 925 bc: settler build in Tabriz (aboard of trireme) / spanish getting closer to Omuz / start building HG
turn 4 900 bc: Vikings (Iron W) and Spanish (Literacy) change techs / Basra build settler and start horsemen (will change to Elephant later)... / Horsemen at Aleppo kills barb archer / last part of HG is build (by van)
turn 5 875 bc: We are largest civ / HG build in Bokhara / Khanbalyk at 42,24
turn 6 850 bc: got rid of one Spanish warrior after request / horsemen at Aleppo start exploring now barb is gone
turn 7 825 bc: start first barrack
turn 8 800 bc: Romans acquire writing / Spanish and Chinese at war / Chinese got Literacy / build several settler / don't know if it's the right thing to do but decided to have alliance with Spanish (no more problems with their troups) and got 50 g from them but at war with Chinese/ RB barrack
turn 9 775 bc: barracks build / horsemen at 17,17 is near Ulundi....which is not city of one the civ's....so there must be a barb city !!!!
turn 10 750 bc: Chinese nearly complete Pyramids / we discover Polytheism and start learning mysticism/ settlers land at 19,25 for quick route to Carth's / got Mysticism from Carth's

Notes:
1 trireme with 2 horsemen is heading to Shanghai and can try to conquer it next turn.
There are two settlers heading to Khanbalyk which can be used to land near Chinese area (canalcities).
Settlers at 19,25 can build city and the other can move west for another city as Peaster described.
We can use the last settlers to get closer to the Romans as Peaster described.

There are some units left to move and a bit of money left to use. Don't forget to change some cityproduction (at least 1 horsemen is build and should be changed).

Don't know if the spanish alliance is a good choise but it's easy to cancel when the time is right....

 

[mackerel]

I'm nervous about building with the western settlers with barbarian archers so close, but I'll rush warriors to ease my troubled mind. Ulundi is a zulu name, zulus were destroyed by barbs. Aleppo or one of the new western cities will send a diplomat.

To keep up expansionism, I'll change the southern size 2 cities to produce settlers, northern size 1 cities to mainly elephants until they're ready to send settlers again.