[RD] The most intellectually challenging PC game

[Agent327]

Well, Akka, games have to sell as well. So if you make the game too intellectually challenging, it might not sell as well. That's kind of a natural break on how intellectually challenging a game can be.

Samely, having fun is usually done in relaxation time. So, even if a game can be challenging (in whatever manner), it's still relaxation. The two don't necessarily contradict.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

I would say study flight simulators like Falcon BMS and some complex planes for DCS or MSFS where you keep learning forever. But I wonder why nobody in a strategy forum like this has mentioned any Paradox games yet.

 

[Akka]

Well, Akka, games have to sell as well. So if you make the game too intellectually challenging, it might not sell as well. That's kind of a natural break on how intellectually challenging a game can be.

Yeah, but that's a sales argument. Your previous one seemed to mean that "fun" and "challenging" were mutually exclusive.

Samely, having fun is usually done in relaxation time. So, even if a game can be challenging (in whatever manner), it's still relaxation. The two don't necessarily contradict.

Well, I admit when I have fun with a frantic action game or doing some heavy sport, I'm really not thinking about "relaxation", which brings to my mind idea of quiet and letting go ^^

 

[muhtesem insan]

I believe "Close Combat" series would be the one.

 

[Agent327]

Yeah, but that's a sales argument. Your previous one seemed to mean that "fun" and "challenging" were mutually exclusive.

Whatever gave you this idea?

No, I meant for a selling game to be fun and challenging (on whatever level) there has to be compromise. (It also, of course, depends on they consumer group you're aiming at.)

Well, I admit when I have fun with a frantic action game or doing some heavy sport, I'm really not thinking about "relaxation", which brings to my mind idea of quiet and letting go ^^

Some relax this, others that way.

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

There's an almost unknown indie hardcore MMO gem called Haven and Hearth. It resembles Ultima Online.

Not only you have to work hard in H&H, you have to think hard, to find ways, to improvise. To communicate through language, paranoia and fear barriers. The game mechanics is done so that you have to deal PvP intimately, where P is for primate. Fight primates, trade with them, rob and bully them, build walls to stop them doing that to you, enslave them, rule them! Unless you're young, unknown, with no balls nor hands, of course, then be a villager ape, or a wild gatherer, or a sticky beggar, and hope for the best till you die!

Btw, if you look through Paradox games there's Hearts of Iron, which is the most complex and hard one.

 

[dusters]

There's an almost unknown indie hardcore MMO gem called Haven and Hearth. It resembles Ultima Online.

Not only you have to work hard in H&H, you have to think hard, to find ways, to improvise. To communicate through language, paranoia and fear barriers. The game mechanics is done so that you have to deal PvP intimately, where P is for primate. Fight primates, trade with them, rob and bully them, build walls to stop them doing that to you, enslave them, rule them! Unless you're young, unknown, with no balls nor hands, of course, then be a villager ape, or a wild gatherer, or a sticky beggar, and hope for the best till you die!

Btw, if you look through Paradox games there's Hearts of Iron, which is the most complex and hard one.

From screenshot Hearts of iron 4 looks like a bit like Europe Universalis 4. Are they similar? Both are war strategy planning games?

 

[Aleksey_aka_al]

From screenshot Hearts of iron 4 looks like a bit like Europe Universalis 4. Are they similar? Both are war strategy planning games?

Yes. The same engine and basic principles. But HOI is overly complex.

 

[plarq]

I played Go and contract bridge, both are pretty hard for my taste.

 

[civvver]

Actually I don't think civ series requires that much intellect at all. You simply learn the rules and how to apply them/exploit them in your games. Someone said something about optimal path? That's really all it is. And then varying levels of micromanagement. I guarantee you anyone can win civ4 on deity if they learn exactly how to use diplomacy to their benefit and how to micro economy. The thing is that level of detailed play can seem tedious and uninteresting to most so we turn the difficulty down so we don't have to do as much route thinking. But it doesn't require more intelligence, just more attention to detail.

Almost all games vs an AI are going to be that way, except maybe like chess I guess where AI is significantly advanced.

Thus my pick goes to Dota 2. It's so slowed down compared to rts or fps that it becomes a very cerebral game. Awareness and understanding of the game are usually more crucial to winning than twitch reactions. Imagine rock paper scissors game but with 38 variations of rocks, papers and scissors, each that slightly counter each other or multiples in different ways. And it changes all the time too with new content and balance patches to keep you on your toes.

 

[Traitorfish]

It occurs to me that a lot of what's being discussed so far is the meta-game. Would the answer change if we asked what game presented the greatest intellectual challenge while remaining immersed in the game? Is that even a useful distinction? (At high-level play, I suppose it might not be.)

 

[tetley]

I believe "Close Combat" series would be the one.

I thought about Close Combat, I played the whole series, but decided against it. A lot of Close Combat had to do with emotional intelligence. (for example, having the patience not to run your Sherman tank too close to that unscouted building with the clock running down).

 

[dusters]

It occurs to me that a lot of what's being discussed so far is the meta-game. Would the answer change if we asked what game presented the greatest intellectual challenge while remaining immersed in the game? Is that even a useful distinction? (At high-level play, I suppose it might not be.)

Well, If I wanted anything then I could just take samples from IQ tests, from the 140-180 IQ range and incorporate them into small, silly games... but then it wouldn't be a PC game, but adapted IQ test.

So this immersion is a rather good approach. At the moment Dota, Hearts of Iron is up for testing. That game with goblins and football someone mentioned very early - i have to buy that too

 

[Martin Alvito]

How did you all get three pages in without Infocom coming up? Do this: download Frotz and a copy of Suspended. You can print the map (the game came with it). No hints. Good luck. I beat a lot of Infocom games without hints, but that was very much not one of them.

 

[dusters]

How did you all get three pages in without Infocom coming up? Do this: download Frotz and a copy of Suspended. You can print the map (the game came with it). No hints. Good luck. I beat a lot of Infocom games without hints, but that was very much not one of them.

This looks like something pretty hardcore, gonna try to keep this in mind.

 

[PhroX]

From screenshot Hearts of iron 4 looks like a bit like Europe Universalis 4. Are they similar? Both are war strategy planning games?

I would go with HoI3 based on what you're looking for, as it is definitely a hugely complex game. 4 is more streamlined/dumbed down (depending on whether or not you consider it a good or bad thing).

 

[REDY]

Aside challenge or complexity my favorite sequel is HoI 2(more specifically Arsenal of democracy and Darkest Hour). Other Paradox games are pretty much evolution of same, HoI not. Since II every sequel is quite different.

 

[Smellincoffee]

Weren't those Hearts of Iron games and Europa Universalis pretty dense?

 

[cardgame]

I think it has to go to an RTS as the pressure adds a ton of challenge to the decision making. Which RTS? I'm not sure.

 

[amadeus]

I'd like to recommend either Balance of Power (1990) or Capitalism Plus (1996) for games that are very challenging. I've had both games for ages and I don't think I've ever come close to mastering either one.