[GS] The mythical +45 Hansa

[Sostratus]

I wonder what the wonder build times are with this thing.

The turn i took the screencaps, the capital has something like 406 production, only one trade route. Just before I entered the dark age it was like 240ish. I also picked up Amundsen-scott and Work Ethic religion, so the capital has absurd +88% modifier. Of the 406, 208 of it is just from the Hansa and its buildings providing the 111 production. I had a option for a 4 turn Eiffel tower not long before I took screenies.

Spoiler :

But all those cities forming the ring are no slouches either. Berlin and Bremen put out 150, Hamburg and Magdeburg have 180-190, and nuremburg pulls in 227. All one TR each.

What in God’s name do you build with that much production? Just interested because most things are going to take 5 turns.

Projects?

Projects indeed. The problem is that while in this instance I maximized one city, look at those other 5 hansa. Some are +8. I settle other cities in clusters of usually 3, and they have +7 - +10 Hansas themselves. The issue is every city has tons of production.
It's not uncommon in my Germany games to win in a golden age (so no abusing robber barons/collectivism) where every single city (and there's like 20) has over 100 production. the upside is that since this all spikes at industrialization, it's actually really easy to be able to build flood barriers fast.
Basically the biggest Germany buff in GS is the production queue; games were just too unwieldy without it. Need to train athletes? Every child is now a gymnast. Aid emergency? Ship them literal mountains of relief. Need diplo favor? Scrub so much carbon from the air that the plants start choking. I also realized that Freddie's +7 vs city states is finally useful to beat back pesky Hungarian rushers. That'll teach 'em.

German UU should be a unique tank. It would make it better.

In civ6 terms, the civ5 panzer was roughly an 83 str, 5 move tank. I think that would be a little overpowering though. I would be happy to get a panzer UU that had normal stats and got a +5 bonus when attacking.

 

[Sostratus]

Well, OP you know what’s next (and you were the one suggesting it in the other thread) - the Mythical Suguba.

I spent all day yesterday playing emperor starts to get that Hansa just so. I might have to tone it back to go easy on myself with Mali. I can already envision the desert sands and flowing river...

 

[UWHabs]

I spent all day yesterday playing emperor starts to get that Hansa just so. I might have to tone it back to go easy on myself with Mali. I can already envision the desert sands and flowing river...

Suguba feels like it should be easier, since I quite often see massive stretched of dessert with nothing sight. Bonus points if you can get each city next to an oasis too.

 

[Sostratus]

By popular demand of @Sagax

You eke out a little extra on the sugubas via rivers.
But since the suguba doesn't have a coal plant, the Hansa is clearly superior.

I hope FXS lurkers see these and are moved by my piety

 

[Cagarustus]

Thank you so much for this! I want to ask: how would you use Magnus’ vertical integration promotion to the greatest effect?

Would you place him in the centre city?

 

[Sostratus]

Thank you so much for this! I want to ask: how would you use Magnus’ vertical integration promotion to the greatest effect?

Would you place him in the centre city?

I have magnus in the +45 city, in the screenshot it's for the +2 he grants to any power plant in his city. However, if we only had these 6 cities to think about, what you notice is that any of these 6 cities is in range of all 6 IZs, so it doesn't matter. Note in the picture that the Colosseum is located precisely so it hits every city as well. (Efficient!)
In a real game where you have more than 6 cities, if you build them clustered in 3's like I do, you basically want to put magnus in a city that can also pick up the factories of another cluster. (Or maybe you have a couple odd coastal cities with hansas floating around.) Mexico city really helps with this.

 

[Cagarustus]

I have magnus in the +45 city, in the screenshot it's for the +2 he grants to any power plant in his city. However, if we only had these 6 cities to think about, what you notice is that any of these 6 cities is in range of all 6 IZs, so it doesn't matter. Note in the picture that the Colosseum is located precisely so it hits every city as well. (Efficient!)
In a real game where you have more than 6 cities, if you build them clustered in 3's like I do, you basically want to put magnus in a city that can also pick up the factories of another cluster. (Or maybe you have a couple odd coastal cities with hansas floating around.) Mexico city really helps with this.

Ah ok. Thanks.

 

[Aristos]

Should be an achievement.

 

[playshogi]

I suppose if you go for religion you should take work ethic? I kind of like going for religion since I discovered the wonders of religious colonization, plus I have Yerevan in my backyard.

 

[Sostratus]

I suppose if you go for religion you should take work ethic?

Usually work ethic isn't as impactful as other top picks like choral music, but when you have a Hansa producing 111 production... it adds up quick. (And even the lesser cities are pulling 50+ production from their IZs) Scroll up a few posts, I included a shot of my capital's production bonuses incl. +23% from work ethic. You those Germans, they are efficient.

 

[BK*]

this would take such a perfect city layout I don't see it being possible in most games, what size map do you use for this? Difficulty? or was this just to show this can be done?

 

[Aurelesk]

I do think only the Hansa can do this high, mostly because he can have 2 adjacency cards in dark age. I guess the second best Industrial Zone are from Netherlands with 8 Production (+2 (Grote Riveren), +6 (Mines), so a low 24 Production (instead of 45). Kind of weak for most of all. I always wonder why the prerequisite of Era Score from Industrial Zone was 4 instead of 3.

So I wanted to know the possibilities with others districts. This is what I found, maybe there is better (so correct me!):

For the Harbor, the RNDY can go to a 10 Gold adjacency (+2 (city-center), +1 (government plaza), +1 (2 districts), +4 (4 coastal ressources), +2 (foreign continent)). With Naval Infreastructure policy, Reyna's title 'Harbomaster', Free Inquiry dedication, and a Shipyard, you end up with 30 Gold, 30 Science and 30 Production.
With all the buildings, a RNDY can end up with 31 Gold, 30 Science, 30 Production, 2 Housing, 3 Food, +75% Experience and 1 Movement for new trained naval units, -25% needed Production towards fleet and armadas, 1 Food and 2 Gold for coastal tiles, 4 Loyalty, and 1 Trade route, without counting disembarking easily and extra gold from trade route on water tiles.

For Holy Site, you can go to 16 Faith adjacency with Australia (+2 (government plaza + 1 district), +3 (breathtaking tiles), +4 (2 adjacents Hubsunur Hollow), +6 (toundra with Pantheon), +1 (2 woods / 2 districts). With Revelation policy, and Hildegard of Bingen, we end up with 32 Faith and 32 Science.
With Synagogue and Simulteneum policy, we come from 11 to 22 Faith from buildings, so extra +11 Faith. So a a city can end up to have 54 Faith and 32 Science from a Holy Site, probably more with Dar-e Mehr.

For the Commercial Hub, the Suguba can go to 17 Gold adjacency (+2 (river), +15 (6 Holy Site (+2.5 each)). With Town Charters policy, Reyna's title 'Harbomaster', and Free Inquiry dedication, we end up with 51 Gold and 51 Science.
With powered buildings and Free Market policy, we come from 18 to 36 Gold from buildings, so extra +18 Gold. So a city can end up to have 87 Gold and 51 Science from a Suguba.

For the Campus, we can go up to 15 Science adjacency with Australia (+3 (breathtaking tiles), +12 (6 geothermal fissures). With Natural Philosophy policy, and Heartbeat of Steam dedication, we end up with 30 Science and 30 Production.
With powered buildings, Hypatia, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein and Rationalism policy, we come from 14 to 42 from buildings, so extra +28. So a city can end up to have 72 Science and 30 Production in total from a Campus (and 1 Housing).

For the Theatre Square, I think it's possible to get to 16 Culture with Australia (12 Culture (6 Wonder, one of them is Machu Picchu), 1 (Mountain, from Machu Pichu), 3 (breathtaking tiles)). With Aesthetics policy, we end up with 32 Culture.
With powered buildings, and Grand Opéra policy, we come from 10 to 20 Culture from buildings, so extra +10. So a city can end up to have 52 Culture in total from Theatre Square, and up to 30 more with Great Works (so 82).

The maximal bonus is quiet big to next time. I think I know what kind of screenshot I will try to do next time

 

[Sostratus]

this would take such a perfect city layout I don't see it being possible in most games, what size map do you use for this? Difficulty? or was this just to show this can be done?

Emperor, small Pangaea map. My only issue was Peter's capital was a neighbor to one of the ring cities, and he did attempt attacking me early. I was lucky in that he expanded along the river he started on instead of south.
The entire thing is only 7 tiles across - It's not actually that big. And you only need a few tiles to be both land and free of obstruction: The center ring of 7, and the six city sites. (Obviously being able to get the other Hansas around the ring is ideal.)

I just rolled a random map (small continents) and using firetuner to show vision, here's just the start area (I didn't move the settler) :

Spoiler :

Except for that one water tile to the NE, this would fit in this start. You could even get all the extra hansas in. See how the mountains and natural wonder and lake don't actually obstruct?
There are multiple spots on virtually any land map to pull this off. The city layout is fairly precise if you want to get all six - but getting the terrain to work with you isn't actually that hard. If you try to be fancy like me and get all the CHs on a river, and make your capital one of the cities, you'll probably need to reroll once or twice.
Now, is getting a +15 worth it?
Well, it's much safer to try to do a combo of 3 or 4, which can fit into any start and usually you can get at least one +10 out of it by positioning near resources and/or or using the government plaza. If you check my signature there's a template for 4 cities to force a +11.

we end up with 51 Gold and 51 Science.

I did exactly this in a thread linked at the bottom of the OP. "The Sublime Suguba."

For the Theatre Square,

Note: I'm fairly sure that Aussie's breathtaking bonus is not part of the adjacency. It's added on after.
You can actually do better: Vilnius suzerain bonus offers +150% theater square adjacency if you have an active tier 3 alliance. So you could extract an extra 19 (13*1.5 rounded down) for a total of 13 base+3 (aussie)+13 (aesth)+19 (vilnius)= 48.

Technically if you get lucky or use firetuner, you can end up with resources being revealed under the commercial hubs in the ring, which gives an extra +1 to a Hansa even though its under a district. (Also works if you found a city on top of something.) So you could hack a map and push the Hansa +21 by surrounding it with resources under the hubs (coal, for flavor) and then ultimately that would get you +63, with a +69 coal plant.

 

[Aurelesk]

My bad for this, thank you for helping me find the best adjacency

For a Holy Site, it mean the max is 15 for Japan or Poland: they have +1 Faith per adjacent districts, so up to 30 Faith and 30 Science that will work for all the game with Revelation, and not situational to a specific dark age policy or golden age dedication.

So a Campus can only go for +14 adjacency with the Netherlands, if we manage to get 6 Geothermal fissures and a river next to him, or make it 4 with the Pamukkale wonder. This is... kind of highly improbable.

For Theatre Square, that means that the base maximum is 15 with Netherlands, with +2 from rivers. If we can stack "mountain" and "Machu Pichu" for adjacency. Glad you mention Vilnius, and learn that I misunderstood it (or blame the translation: I thought a gain +50% if I get a level 3 alliance). So we could end with 52 from adjacency with Vilnius (+150%) and Aesthetics!

 

[Victoria]

6 Geothermal fissures

That is just not gonna happen as you said. you are likely to average 2-3 adjacency for campi and I find that figure far more useful but it is nice to know maxes.
What do people say is the honest average for IZ adjacency?

 

[Sostratus]

For a Holy Site, it mean the max is 15 for Japan or Poland: they have +1 Faith per adjacent districts,

Japan's Meiji Restoration text is misleading: it does not give an extra +1, it changes the +0.5 to +1. Poland's text is more clear. Surrounding a holy site with districts gets you to +6 with Japan or Poland.

However, have faith: you can still get +30 from a holy site: Dance of the aurora (+6 for surrounded by tundra) and surround by woods (+3 for all 6) and Norway's stave church (grants an extra +1 adjacency for woods, extra +6) which takes you to +15, using the card to 30.

What do people say is the honest average for IZ adjacency?

I am an absolute IZ monger almost no matter who I play, and honestly, +3 is about what I can get on average. Some better, some worse but using districts to try to make up for fewer mines. Most cities just don't have the kind of hills you need.
If I'm dutch or japan its more like +4.5 - japan from padding with districts and dutch because the river is nice, but then you need hills on the river so that hurts the average a little.

 

[UWHabs]

I don't like placing an IZ for less than +3, which is not hard to get (2 mines and 2 districts).

Also when talking about the max ones, I still don't always know which bonuses stack and which override. For example, Dance of the Aurora can combine with forest adjacency or district adjacency to get to +7 or more, but a tundra mountain still only gives +1 to the holy site. Japan and Poland's +1 bonus overrides the default, but I think Brasil's rainforest bonus does stack for campuses, if I remember right last time I played them. The government plaza adds +1, so is effectively +1.5 including the base district bonus. I forget which other cases do or don't stack with each other.

 

[Sostratus]

but a tundra mountain still only gives +1 to the holy site.

Mountains are coded to all just be mountains- the tundra vs snow vs plains etc, is just graphical. Natural wonders that look like mountains are not mountains, they're NWs.

I forget which other cases do or don't stack with each other.

Anything that says additional bonus with the sole exception of japan's UA text, is added on top of everything else. Anything with its own line in the civilopedia adjacency list for a district is separate from the base district bonus too (Harbor-city center interaction is +0.5 for district, +2 for being a City center.) It's just that japan has the literal worst language use to describe that it modifies the base district bonus to +1.
The acropolis gets +1 from districts, but it's an upgraded district bonus, not a separate one - you can see there's just one line for it in the civilopedia.

Normally the 'pedia is pretty mediocre but the numerical attributes on the sidebars are pulled straight from essentially the "in-game database" and, like shakira's hips, do not lie.

 

[Tannhauser]

However, have faith: you can still get +30 from a holy site: Dance of the aurora (+6 for surrounded by tundra) and surround by woods (+3 for all 6) and Norway's stave church (grants an extra +1 adjacency for woods, extra +6) which takes you to +15, using the card to 30.

I believe Aurelsk meant +15 in the ideal configuration for Japan/Poland, like in his previous example : +4 (NW)+6(tundra)+5(4 districts including GP)=15.

If the stave church bonus for woods stacks with the normal wood adjacency then I believe the max is +16: +4(NW)+6(tundra)+6(4 woods)

 

[Aurelesk]

I completely forgot about Norway, sorry. Thank you Tannhauser. Yes, +32 with Norway seems to be the maximum with the natural wonder.


So if I remake the list of maximum adjacency (hoping that I'm good now, correct me if I'm wrong!):

Campus: +28 Science and +28 Production (Netherlands only) (nearly impossible: involve a lot of luck)
You need a river (+2 Science, Grote Rivieren ability), six adjacents Geothermal Fissure (+12 Science) or four adjacent Geothermal Fissure (+8 Science) with the natural wonder "Pamukkale" (+4 Science), making it +14 Science, +28 with Rationalism policy (+100%). The dedication "Heartbeat of Steam" allows to have Production from Campus adjacencies.
Without Geothermal Fissure, it is +20 Science, possible by Brazil (Pamukkale and 4 rainforests), or Netherlands (Pamukkale, river, 3-4 moutains, 0-1 Government Plaza).

Commercial Hub: +51 Gold (and +51 Science) (Mali only, Suguba)
You need a river (+2 Gold), six adjacent Holy Site (+15 Gold), making it +17 Gold, +51 with "Harbormaster" Reyna's title (+100%) and the Towns Charters policy card (+100%). The dedication "Free Inquiry" allow to have Science from Commercial Hub adjacencies.

Harbor: +30 Gold (and +30 Science and +30 Production) (England only, Royal Navy Dockyard)
You need a City-Center (+2 Gold), a Governement Plaza (+1 Gold), so 2 districts (+1 Gold), four adjacent marine ressource (+4 Gold) and be on a foreign continent (+2 Gold), making it +10 Gold, +30 with "Harbormaster" Reyna's title (+100%) and Free Market policy card (+100%). The dedication "Free Inquiry" allows to have Science from Harbor adjacencies, and the Shipyard building allows to have Production from Harbor adjacencies too.

Holy Site: +32 Faith (and +32 Science) (Norway only)
You need the natural wonder "Hubsunur Hollow" (+4 Faith), four adjacent woods (+2 Faith), the pantheon "Danse of the Aurora" (+6 Faith, Hubsunur Hollow counts as toundra), and four adjacent woods with Stave Church (+4 Faith), making it 16 Faith, 32 with the Revelation policy card (+100%). The great Scientist "Hildegard of Bingen" allows to have science from a specific Holy Site adjacency.

Industrial Zone: +63 Production (or +126 Production) (Germany only, Hansa) (nearly impossible: involve a lot of luck)
You need six adjacent Commercial Hub (+15 Production), and having under each Commercial Hub a Strategic Ressource (+6 Production), making it +21 Production, +63 with the Craftsmen policy card (+100%), and the Collectivism dark age policy card (+100%). The Coal Power Plant building allows to have Production from Industrial Zone adjacencies.
Without luck, it is +45 Production, +90 with the Coal Power Plant.

Theatre Square: +52 Culture (Netherlands only)
You need a river (+2 Culture, Grote Rivieren ability), six adjacents wonders (+12 Culture), one of the wonder must be the Machu Picchu (+1 Culture from mountain), making it +15 Culture, +52 with the Grand Opera policy card (+100%) and Vilnius suzerain's bonus with a level 3 alliance (+150%) (technically: +52.5).