The Netherlands (pre-release thread)

^^ this...

...and...

+ 2 gold for oasis (keep in mind Arabian desert start bias)
+ 2 gold for oil (keep in mind Arabian desert start bias)

...and...

makes no sense for Dutch UA to come into action before Arabian UB due to real-life events.

Much better IMO is a slightly weaker bazaar for Arabia that's available early with a slightly more powerful UA for Dutch that's available from Astonomy or Navigation onwards.
Actually, for all we know the dev's may have already nerfed the bazaar to maintain balance...

Ideas:
Bazaar - same as market plus...+2 gold for each oasis, +2 gold for each oil, +5% gold for each improved luxury in city radius (though I'm worried this may make the bazaar too bland)
or
Bazaar - same as market plus...+2 gold for each oasis, +2 gold for each oil, +5% gold for each imported luxury (encouraging and rewarding trade for Arabia)

East India Company - After researching Astronomy, retain 50% happiness when trading away last luxury or when trading away imported luxury (giving Dutch ability to buy and sell)
or
East India Company - After researching Astronomy, 1 free Great Merchant or Great Admiral (player choice) and does not lose any happiness when trading away luxuries

...meh, probably not gonna happen and the game is probably going to be balanced anyway (in ways I haven't thought of), but doesn't hurt to brainstorm cool ideas right? :)
 
Babri said:
Please read my previous posts as well as those of Lyoncet. I have already mentioned it that bazar/market is a must building which u'll always construct whether u are Arabia or any other civ. So the point that bazar has to be constructed is moot. The only advantage Dutch UA have is that it comes into action early but not so much earlier than bazar. U won't get start selling luxuries on turn 1 so it will too take some time to establish ur trading.

It is just like saying that Chariot archers are going to best Keshliks because they come earlier. There are many other factors u need to consider before deciding which one is better.
Click to expand...

Thanks for that. ;) Additionally, something I kind of hinted at but didn't explicitly say, is that not only do markets/Bazaars come online early, the lag between the point where you'll usually start selling your resources and the point where you'd get Bazaars isn't even that great. East India isn't providing you a turn-1 benefit. It provides you a benefit once you've researched your luxury techs, gotten a worker, and improved your tile. That's a good chunk of the pre-market era, when you consider how little time it takes before you're forced to start building markets anyways because they're necessary not long into the game.

Also, please note that East India doesn't give you extra money. It gives you extra happiness. That means this small window of opportunity shrinks even further when you realize that in lots of games, depending on how much food you can produce, how many cities you can afford to expand to, etc., that extra happiness which you cannot turn into gold may not even do much for you. Yes, with extra happiness you can maintain positive :c5happy:, but again, that window disappears quickly, and regardless, I find it's usually best to sell those early resources even if it puts you into negatives so you can get more units/libraries/cities whathaveyou. Maybe you'll squeeze an extra 2 or 4 population out of your cities really early on as a result. But maybe not. Either way, in 50 turns you'd be much better served by a different unique anyways, and for the reasons I mentioned a few days back those are much more powerful. I won't reiterate all of them in full, but I'm talking about things like being able to turn them into gold, or twice the happiness bonus, and getting extra happiness/gold per resource instead of per type of resource (very relevant due to resource clustering), etc.

Now this isn't saying that East India Company is bad. An ability that can net you an extra 10 or so happiness is pretty good. But the particulars really don't, IMO, bear out the opinion that just being early is enough to make EIC better than a watered-down Bazaar, which is the point most of us have taken up I believe. For the same reason, as babri so eloquently noted, that Chariot Archers aren't better than Keshiks. There's a lot more that has to be taken into account than the opportunity cost.
 
The window is not nearly as small as you seem to be suggesting (especially considering you have to build the Bazaar, so it's not like you automatically obtain the benefit once researching Currency, and considering that you'd maximise the benefit by going straight to Calendar for plantations if playing as the Dutch). It would almost always be at least an entire trade cycle, which would in all likelihood mean a 480 gold bonus by that stage at least. That bonus could buy you the worker necessary to get your luxuries online quicker, increasing the benefit again (plus providing numerous turns of improvement building that increase the food and production of your cities, allowing buildings and units to be built quicker, and gold and research to increase more rapidly). A worker bought before Currency is worth way more than one bought after. Or you could buy some buildings that you'd otherwise build, and produce a wonder instead.

Alternatively, that early extra gold would buy you some units necessary to conquer Arabia before they can gain any benefit from the Bazaar. ;)

My point being, the Bazaar is good, obviously, but saying the Dutch UA is 'watered-down' seems to be underestimating the crucial importance of early gold.
 
Camikaze said:
The window is not nearly as small as you seem to be suggesting (especially considering you have to build the Bazaar, so it's not like you automatically obtain the benefit once researching Currency, and considering that you'd maximise the benefit by going straight to Calendar for plantations if playing as the Dutch). It would almost always be at least an entire trade cycle, which would in all likelihood mean a 480 gold bonus by that stage at least.
Click to expand...

See, here's where we find the breakdown between the two camps. It looks like it's +(Nx240) gold, but it's not. It's +(Nx2) happiness. That +happiness cannot be turned into gold. It can be turned into Nx2 population, in an instance where you would otherwise be between -(Nx2) and -1 happiness (happiness is more-or-less binary, so in a case where you'd be past -(Nx2), it doesn't help growth, and in a case where you'd be neutral or positive, it doesn't help growth. Only if is responsible for putting you back above negative does it really have an effect whatsoever). In my experience, that extra couple happiness at the early stages of the game is inconsequential, since there are many things limiting your growth rate (quality of tiles, number of improvements you have access to, worker turns, hammers/gold sunk into works vs. settlers vs. units, how willing you are to put off important buildings like Libraries, National College, and early wonders, etc.) So calling it extra gold isn't quite accurate, since you're not getting gold from it unless the 2 extra happiness per resource would be a make-or-break deal for being able to sell the resource, which, again, I would say at that point in the game it's unlikely to be. Also, you'd need 4 different types of luxuries improved and sold off for that much gold in happiness even if you could turn it into gold, and 4 different types found, settled, improved, and sold is also unlikely that early on. Maybe 240. Again, if you could turn it into gold. :p

Camikaze said:
Alternatively, that early extra gold would buy you some units necessary to conquer Arabia before they can gain any benefit from the Bazaar. ;)
Click to expand...

Do your worst, infidel! I welcome the challenge! ;) Also, my shoes > your shoes. :lol:
 
I tend to find myself quite pushed for happiness at that stage, to the extent that I don't trade away my luxuries. Having the ability to do so without losing the full happiness (combined with potential religious beliefs to supplement happiness and the UA) will in any given situation more likely than not translate into those trades being viable. Whilst the benefit does not directly translate into gold, it effectively will in almost every game. You seem to be discounting this fact by saying that it's rare that that will be the case, when it's really not. Of course, if you're not expanding this isn't going to be as useful, but obviously it's going to be the case that if you're not pursuing a strategy that pressures your happiness, a happiness UA isn't going to be as useful! This UA enables that strategy and goes a long way to removing that limitation on growth and expansion.

So let's assume that the UA was to keep all the happiness. Would that be overpowered? I would think so. You could sell every luxury that is in your territory without incurring any sort of detriment. Assuming five luxury tiles before you get to Currency, you might normally sell one of them, but now you can sell them all, for a bonus of 960 gold! Coming before Currency, that would compound into some pretty amazing benefits; so amazing that it would certainly seem overpowered.
 
Wouldn't it be possible that polder only provided tulips on marsh and not on floodplains.

This way a marsh would be 4 food and tulips and a floodplain 5 food and 1 gold. Both very good tiles and well balanced.
 
You guys highly underestimate the additional gold netherlands can get in the early game without sacrificing too much happiness.

I won't even try to argue here because I know the impact of an additional early worker or a bit more cash to secure the flanks after a fast REX strategy. That's all that matters to me.

I also think that comparing Netherlands to a single other CIV isn't going to prove that it's a weak UA somehow. In fact, it's a very flexible UA because it can either give you more gold or more happiness and on top of that more growth (trading for "We love the king day" resources becomes much more desirable = +25% more growth).

Gold and happiness are probably (besides production) the two most important values in the first 50-70 turns and you get more of both when you pick the netherlands ftw! (and long before bazaars can be built)

That's all I'm going to say about this topic.
 
The Dutch UA provides a faster early game empire growth/expansion that no other civ can get. That means more land and more resources falling under their control, earlier.

Let's toss some basic numbers out there:

9 default happiness.
average start = 2 copies of one unique lux, 1 copy of a 2nd unique lux. (starts vary, but this seems to be average).

so...

Capital @ 5 pop = 8 unhappiness.
2nd city @ 2 pop = 5 unhappiness.
So you need 1 lux to hit 'zero' (and therefore still grow) happiness while selling all other luxuries.

Assuming you grow your 2nd city to 3 pop, then that's where your growth and expansion 'stop' until you get more luxuries.

As the Dutch, you would be up 2 more happiness (and pop) in the same situation. That's 1/2 a new city. Assume you do a lux for lux trade on your 'single' luxury and you've got 2 more happiness. Now you can afford:

Capital @ 5 pop
2nd city @ 3 pop
3rd city @ 2 pop and be at -2 unhappiness.

So the obvious choice there is to lux/lux trade each type of luxury that you have (sell the rest for gold) to gain +2 happy/lux each trade. With 2 luxuries, that's +4 happiness = a new luxury.

Which means that the 9 default happiness covers the first 3 cities unhappiness and you have 12 pop to spread around the 3 cities. Which means that each city will grow faster (direct boost to science), build faster, gain gold faster, expand borders faster, etc etc than other civs in the same situation.

It's a snowball that starts as soon as you have a luxury improved. and you didn't use buildings, religions or SPs to boost happiness yet.

edit: and you can't underestimate the benefit of hitting the first golden age earlier if you stick with lux/lux trades.
 
Babri said:
Hmm... So no tulips for Dutch then. And how can u say that Sea Begger would be a sea-keshlik (in usefulness) ? Do we know its unique strengths yet ? :think:
Click to expand...

I said that for two reasons.

1) You have to judge civs by the whole package. Mongolia is a great example. They have a not so great bonus against city states... but keshiks.

2) I'm heavily invested in horse scuba gear. :D

Don't think we know what Sea Beggars can do over Privateers yet. Maybe they're awesome is what I'm getting at.
 
I believe we can lay the question to rest whether the Polder provides Tullips or not (it doesn't) now that I found this preview that was written on 21 May in Dutch which explains what the Polder and the Sea Beggar does.

www.gamer.nl/preview/295357/civilization-v-gods-kings-hands-on

I translated the part that talks about what the Dutch UA, UI and UU does:

The unique bonuses of The Netherlands are particularly strong in the Renaissance period, which also was the moment the preview version came to an end. We have not completely been able to put the effectiveness under the microscope. The Netherlands can construct a Polder on Floodplains and Marshes, making it yield more food. In later periods, you also get more production points and gold from it. The other unique unit is the Sea Beggar (The Beggars), a strong ship that can attack cities and conquer enemy ships.

As a unique feature, the Netherlands has the Dutch East India Company (VOC), allowing you to retain 50% of your Happiness when you trade away one of your last luxury goods. Well, the Dutch will even sell their grandmother for money.
 
CanaDutch said:
I believe we can lay the question to rest whether the Polder provides Tullips or not (it doesn't) now that I found this preview that was written on 21 May in Dutch which explains what the Polder and the Sea Beggar does.

www.gamer.nl/preview/295357/civilization-v-gods-kings-hands-on

I translated the part that talks about what the Dutch UA, UI and UU does:

The unique bonuses of The Netherlands are particularly strong in the Renaissance period, which also was the moment the preview version came to an end. We have not completely been able to put the effectiveness under the microscope. The Netherlands can construct a Polder on Floodplains and Marshes, making it yield more food. In later periods, you also get more production points and gold from it. The other unique unit is the Sea Beggar (The Beggars), a strong ship that can attack cities and conquer enemy ships.

As a unique feature, the Netherlands has the Dutch East India Company (VOC), allowing you to retain 50% of your Happiness when you trade away one of your last luxury goods. Well, the Dutch will even sell their grandmother for money.
Click to expand...

well, that makes some sense. The Polder starts with a food bonus, but later gets a production+gold bonus. Makes marshes definitely better than a farm.
 
Hmmm... If poler also gives production and gold later on, then that's really very good :)

Still, I dislike the idea Polders will be most effective in deserts...



Warning, some pure unfounded speculation coming up: perhaps flood plains in general are being changed? I've always found it strange that every desert tile next to a river got one, the only location in the real world where this is the case is the Nile delta (and even this can be argued).

I'd prefer if floodplains could appear next to rivers on grass and plains as well. It would appear only on 1/4 of the tiles next to a river, and give +3 base food on desert, +2 on plains and +1 on grass. That way deserts will be less atractive (unless you get really lucky with mainy flood plains nearby), and plains and grass rivers would be a bit more attractive. It would also make more sense for the Polder.
 
A Rabid Dopsis said:
I said that for two reasons.

1) You have to judge civs by the whole package. Mongolia is a great example. They have a not so great bonus against city states... but keshiks.

2) I'm heavily invested in horse scuba gear. :D

Don't think we know what Sea Beggars can do over Privateers yet. Maybe they're awesome is what I'm getting at.
Click to expand...

Atleast I am not expecting Sea Beggers to be that strong. However the post by the other user about polders that they'll give production & gold later on sounds interesting. Dutch could be a good civ to play then if their UI is sufficiently strong. :)
 
The fact that the Sea Beggar can actually conquer an enemy ship sounds highly interesting to me. Especially on Naval Warfare, it seems the Sea Beggar can allow Holland to amass a bigger naval fleet then others by its stealing. Would be fun if you could hide a few of them, and them sneak them up on Destroyers and such to steal them away from your opposition...
As for the Polder, the Production+Gold bonus makes it a lot more interesting. Shame there's no tulips, but this works, it works very well.
 
So it looks like the main benefit of the Dutch is going to be the Polder. The video released today had it at 4:c5food:1:c5production:2:c5gold: in late Renaissance or early Industrial. That's equivalent to a resource tile (Wheat would be 5:c5food:1:c5production: for example). Besides that they are still a Marsh, so if you have a few adjacent you get a mini Great Wall in the bargain.

Edit: And that's on a Marsh. On a Floodplain it would be 5:c5food:1:c5production:3:c5gold:

Edit 2: snipperrabbitt!! points out in the main thread about the video that it looks as if Polders create trade routes without roads as well.
 
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