The Netherlands

[pineappledan]

That's how it works in 4UC and the usage is pretty marginal. From experience it's just not nearly enough to make it even a decent UI. It also requires two Polder icons as a separate improvement, and I doubt Gazebo would want Netherlands workers to have two polder icons, one for non-fresh marsh, one for fresh.

No it doesn't. There's SQL code to "hide" an improvement from the UI. CBP added a trait that allows the UA to bestow build actions on units of a specific civ. So just don't lock the special MarshPolder to the Netherlands (which would flag it for inclusion in the civ select screen), and give Dutch workers the ability to building MarshPolders via the UA.

 

[Stalker0]

If you were looking to add a wow-factor to the polder, you could make them add 1 movement cost to the tile. That would require new code, but lots of UIs have special unique thingies about them. Polders are pretty vanilla

I think we are getting into a bad trend too much lately.

We go from: "I think this civ is a little underpowered" to "lets give this civ a completely new ability....just because!"

Hehe PAD, that's how Rome happened after all

 

[pineappledan]

Hehe PAD, that's how Rome happened after all

Rome happened because people have a weird boner for Roman military and civic history. People want Rome to be everything and more because they know the most about it.

 

[Stalker0]

Rome happened because people have a weird boner for Roman military and civic history. People want Rome to be everything and more because they know the most about it.

So what is so broken about the Dutch that we have to sudden add in an entirely new mechanic, as opposed to adding in a few yields, or....just leave it alone because the civ is fine?

 

[pineappledan]

I really don't know what to say to you. This is so apples and oranges you may as well be trying to argue down is up.

I suggest one thing to spruce up a UI that currently only gives straight yields, and your response is to say that no change should ever be considered for any unique component.

Why? because Rome's kit is an abomination (which it is). Precisely how is Rome's kit being a god-awful mess a justification for not tweaking the Dutch, or any other civ?

 

[Stalker0]

I suggest one thing to spruce up a UI that currently only gives straight yields, and your response is to say that no change should ever be considered for any unique component.

I think the mechanic change should warrant the need, considering how late in design the mod is. If the Dutch was fundamentally flawed, bottom of the barrel, people think they are garbage and most importantly....no fun....than a more radical idea would make sense.

But the comment is "the polder is weak". The first reaction to that should be a buff, not a fundamental redesign in what the polder does.

Recently someone had a cool idea for the Shoshone, one I also thought was really neat, but G cut it off. And he was right, I got carried away, it was too radical an idea, something the Shoshone didn't need. They are a fun unique civ to play, and so are the Dutch. Sometimes, its ok for a civ to just be good and unique and fun to play, we don't have to reinvent the wheel for every civ

 

[Gazebo]

Rome happened because people have a weird boner for Roman military and civic history. People want Rome to be everything and more because they know the most about it.

a.) There's nothing wrong with my boner
b.) Rome's UA was pioneered by me because it's, well, the primary 'unique' feature of the civ. Everything else they do is pretty simple.

The Dutch trade mechanic in their UA sets them apart, they don't need a Polder that changes everything. I really think slapping some yields on it, or using one of the many, many open improvement_ tables, is the way to go.

I'll also shoot the 'movement baby' by noting that improvements that affect movement would be a bear for the AI to use correctly. Movement is expensive and complex to calculate.

G

 

[ChefGuevara]

I think re-adding the polder to marshes is fine. Even if it doesn't totally change the Dutch, it was the only thing that changed marshes, so I like having it be unique like that.

 

[pineappledan]

a.) There's nothing wrong with my boner
b.) Rome's UA was pioneered by me because it's, well, the primary 'unique' feature of the civ. Everything else they do is pretty simple.

a) G, you seem like a real good lad, but you have the weirdest boners
b) Except Rome's got lots of other unique thingies about it:

• 100% Capture chance on buildings. Even if it didn't steal uniques, that would be very unique and powerful.
• Highest GGeneral/GAdmiral spawn rate
• Compounding global on its UB (The % connection gold)
• A UU that has a very unique combat promotion (pilum) and can build improvements (shared only with Bandeirantes and Nau)

But yeah, re-adding the marshes to polders is both possible with current code and a small bump. Makes Goddess of Purity a good pickup for the Dutch, which is a pretty unique synergy.

 

[Gazebo]

a) G, you seem like a real good lad, but you have the weirdest boners
b) Except Rome's got lots of other unique thingies about it:

• 100% Capture chance on buildings. Even if it didn't steal uniques, that would be very unique and powerful.
• Highest GGeneral/GAdmiral spawn rate
• Compounding global on its UB (The % connection gold)
• A UU that has a very unique combat promotion (pilum) and can build improvements (shared only with Bandeirantes and Nau)

But yeah, re-adding the marshes to polders is both possible with current code and a small bump. Makes Goddess of Purity a good pickup for the Dutch, which is a pretty unique synergy.

a.) Don't make too many assumptions
b.) Polder on marsh could be considered. But it will cost you. All of you.

G

 

[pineappledan]

a.) Don't make too many assumptions

That sounds like an invitation. You're right though; assumptions are dangerous. Next time I'm in Rhode Island, I'll have to remember to bring my callipers.

 

[Gazebo]

That sounds like an invitation. You're right though; assumptions are dangerous. Next time I'm in Rhode Island, I'll have to remember to bring my callipers.

 

[pineappledan]

So Polders on marsh isn’t happening?

 

[Kim Dong Un]

Does Willy get yields on trading for every lux, or only different types? If I trade for 3 gems, do I get 3+3+3 = 9 gold/culture, or only 3 because it's the same type of lux?

*Edit - Never mind, I understand now, although had some weirdness where it wasn't granting me copper monopoly

Spoiler :

Persia still has monopoly

Spoiler :

 

[Omen of Peace]

You need to have at least 1 more than they do, because Monopolies are first come, first served, and they don't lose the resources they trade with you.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Vanguard (+100% vs Cities, -50% from Cities) on Sea Beggars is very powerful on their UU, that also comes earlier (Astronomy, instead of Navigation). What ever issues you have with Naval Melee Units terrorizing Cities magnified. As Ironclads, they should be hitting Cities for 173%+ (125% from Vanguard, 33% from Ironclads onward, and at least +20% from Promotions) and at base 60 CS (155 CS at +173%). They will be hitting Cities for at least 200 damage, probably 1-shotting the Garrison, letting you take Cities in 2-3 hits. It doesn't really synergize with their other ability to capture Ships, Prize Ships. Although, it gives them another role however.

Polders don't seem very useful. I do like that you can build them next to each other. It is very difficult to be able to use them for their bonus to Villages and Towns. It's not very rewarding as it is only +1 . They only get 2 Tech boosts, both in Renaissance, so eventually Farms can actually match them in Yields with the Agribusiness.

 

[Drakle]

The 3rd and 4th Unique Component has a sea-based UI produced by workers. Maybe the Polder should be buildable on coastlines.

UI - Kampong (Worker Improvement):
available at Sailing
build time - 7 turns
can be built on featureless Lake and Coast
cannot be built next to each other
+1 Food and +1 Culture
+1 Production to adjacent Fishing Boats
+1 Production at Compass, +1 Culture at Navigation, +1 Food at Dynamite, +1 at Ecology

The Dutch reclaimed land. So maybe a boost for having coastal Polders next to land Polders.

Or maybe Polders should have a chance to spawn a resource like Egypt's Flax (also from the 3rd and 4th UC mod).

Finally, flooding the Polders was a defensive strategy. Maybe a defensive bonus for Dutch units, standing on Polders.

 

[azum4roll]

It was suggested some time ago that hostile units stepping on Polders lose all movement points.

 

[SuperNoobCamper]

Starting next to a luxury improved by a first column tech (Mining or hunting) ,settling on top of it then researching that tech and selling it immediately even for 1 gold is a huge lead early on.
having 4 per urn as early as turn 10 is ridiculous.

 

[LifeOfBrian]

Yup, I was doing that for a long time until I decided it's a human exploit and that if the AI can't be taught to do it, I'd refrain from doing it as well. It makes the Netherlands arguably the best civ in the game, enabling you (along with the rest of the UA) to blitz through any of the three opening policy trees. That's why I recommended changing the UA to make it less powerful.