The Netherlands

[Funak]

I said from the start that this adjacency thing wouldn't work out properly, they need to be balanced around themselves, not around building them in a circle around villages.
The terrace farm is suffering from the exact same thing with the exception that the TF have decent base-yields meaning it is completely overpowered as a result.

 

[Gazebo]

What is the intended use case for this implementation of the polder? As they are currently balanced, the only use I can find for them is squeezing them in where you otherwise can't get decent farm adjacency. They max out at +2 Food, which I can beat with 3 farms in a triangle. By the time I'm able to build them at all, I likely have or could have Civil Service to get the same food yield from a farm, plus adjacency. It seems I'm trading a very valuable and rather difficult to obtain yield (food) for a bunch of easy to obtain and unhelpful yield (gold). I also get a production and a culture in the swap. When I'm making a choice between 2 Food, or 1 Production 3 Gold 1 Culture, the 2 Food is almost always the better choice.

You made farms give adjacency food bonuses to each other. You balanced your population growth and specialist food consumption to match the now-inflated food potential from the adjacency-fueled farms. If you want a Civ to have a unique improvement that takes the place of farms, they HAVE TO provide equal or superior food. This is why I suggested they buff village food yield instead of gold, and suggested higher Polder yields, in the post I made here. As a reminder, these were the suggested yields:
Base 3 Food 1 Gold
with Economics Polder gains +2 Gold
with Chemistry Polder gains +1 Culture
adjacent Villages +1 Food

An example from an (effectively) late-game city. Six tiles and their yields, first as Polders and a Village, then as Polders with 2 Villages, then as Farms. Total yield counts from each, in spoiler text and above image.

Spoiler Polders 20F 24P 22G 6C :

Polders 20F 24P 22G 6C

Spoiler 2 Villages 18F 23P 26G 6C :

2 Villages 18F 23P 26G 6C

Spoiler Farms 34F 17P 0G 0C :

Farms 34F 17P 0G 0C

So we're trading 14 or 16 Food to get 7 or 6 Production, 22 or 26 Gold, and 6 Culture. Conversely, specialists in Information Age cost 6 Food each, so we can support a couple more Specialists with the Farms. We can get 18 Gold, 4 Production, and Great Merchant points using merchant specialists. We can get 18 Production 8 Science from Engineers, 18 Science 4 Culture from Scientists, 18 Culture 6 Production from Artists, 18 Culture 6 Science from Writers, 16 Culture 8 Gold from Musicians, and 6 Culture, Science, and Gold from Civil Servants. This is before Wonders, Policies, and Religion. With Freedom, that becomes 5 more Specialists instead of 2. On top of greater yields for everything but Gold, you also get Great Person points from working these specialists.

If we were to use the yields I suggested earlier, we would have these results:
Polders, 1 Village: 27F 19P 20G 6C
Polders, 2 Villages: 28F 19P 22G 6C
Farms: 34F 17P 0G 0C
This is a trade-off worth making. The 2 village yields show that it takes a river bend where you can get 4 polders adjacent to 1 village to get superior yields compared to just putting a polder there. Looking at these, the polder gold yield is likely too high and should come down by 1.

Something similar to this change needs to happen if polders are to be a useful improvement we want to build when possible. I'm sure this isn't the only solution, it's simply one solution that looks good to me.

I had a hard time finding a nice balance - the initial values we discussed above were very inflationary, or at least they became inflationary with the AI. BUT - and this is key - I was testing all this prior to the river spaghetti fix, so the Polders need some love, yep.

G

 

[Atlas627]

I said from the start that this adjacency thing wouldn't work out properly, they need to be balanced around themselves, not around building them in a circle around villages.
The terrace farm is suffering from the exact same thing with the exception that the TF have decent base-yields meaning it is completely overpowered as a result.

What's wrong with balancing them around building them in circles around villages?

 

[Funak]

What's wrong with balancing them around building them in circles around villages?

Nothing really, but what's the reasoning behind it? Are farms balanced around building them in circles around villages, are eki balanced around building them in circles around villages? Polders are pretty much pimped up farms, there is no reason why they should be based around building around villages when farms are based around being built next to each other.
This is a solution that's trying to invent a problem to fix, a new feature that everyone are desperate to make use of for no good reason. The only practical difference between balancing polders around themselvers and balancing them around villages is that you force the player to make villages, limiting choice.

 

[Atlas627]

Nothing really, but what's the reasoning behind it? Are farms balanced around building them in circles around villages, are eki balanced around building them in circles around villages? Polders are pretty much pimped up farms, there is no reason why they should be based around building around villages when farms are based around being built next to each other.
This is a solution that's trying to invent a problem to fix, a new feature that everyone are desperate to make use of for no good reason. The only practical difference between balancing polders around themselvers and balancing them around villages is that you force the player to make villages, limiting choice.

Of course none of those things are based around circling villages, that's what's making this unique. Polders are no longer pimped up farms with this mechanic, they are unique. If you want to make their UA "farms actually have yields of Polders" then that's boring.

Do I like this mechanic in particular? No. But I certainly don't think its limiting choice at all. Trying to decide where to sacrifice farm adjacency and trade/roads to place villages is fun. Trying to decide how to develop that in tandem with Polder-able land limitations is also fun. This would be fine if the yields were worth it.

 

[Funak]

Of course none of those things are based around circling villages, that's what's making this unique. Polders are no longer pimped up farms with this mechanic, they are unique. If you want to make their UA "farms actually have yields of Polders" then that's boring.

I didn't exactly mean in-game

Do I like this mechanic in particular? No. But I certainly don't think its limiting choice at all. Trying to decide where to sacrifice farm adjacency and trade/roads to place villages is fun. Trying to decide how to develop that in tandem with Polder-able land limitations is also fun. This would be fine if the yields were worth it.

Another issue I have with it is aesthetics, clustered Polders look awesome, polders in a circle around something doesn't. I would be a lot more fine with this if the bonus was just for building a tradingpost near a polder, meaning it would be worth building tradingposts around a field of polders, but not actually replacing polders in the middle of the field. But at that point I don't really see the point in an adjacency-bonus at all, I mean tradingposts would probably be worth building there even without a bonus.

 

[Atlas627]

I didn't exactly mean in-game



Another issue I have with it is aesthetics, clustered Polders look awesome, polders in a circle around something doesn't. I would be a lot more fine with this if the bonus was just for building a tradingpost near a polder, meaning it would be worth building tradingposts around a field of polders, but not actually replacing polders in the middle of the field. But at that point I don't really see the point in an adjacency-bonus at all, I mean tradingposts would probably be worth building there even without a bonus.

Well I agree with all of these points.

 

[Gazebo]

I didn't exactly mean in-game



Another issue I have with it is aesthetics, clustered Polders look awesome, polders in a circle around something doesn't. I would be a lot more fine with this if the bonus was just for building a tradingpost near a polder, meaning it would be worth building tradingposts around a field of polders, but not actually replacing polders in the middle of the field. But at that point I don't really see the point in an adjacency-bonus at all, I mean tradingposts would probably be worth building there even without a bonus.

Unless you have a weird river system, it'll be hard to circle anything with polders. Generally you'll have a line of them on a fresh water source and TPs adjacent to them.

 

[Atlas627]

Unless you have a weird river system, it'll be hard to circle anything with polders. Generally you'll have a line of them on a fresh water source and TPs adjacent to them.

If there's a bend in the river, you can replace one of the polders with a town and get a nice set of buffs on it. Its nice and cool, but the scaling on the adjacency buff is really poor while the yields on the Polder itself got a huge nerf, on top of rivers being great places for farm adjacency.

 

[Gazebo]

If there's a bend in the river, you can replace one of the polders with a town and get a nice set of buffs on it. Its nice and cool, but the scaling on the adjacency buff is really poor while the yields on the Polder itself got a huge nerf, on top of rivers being great places for farm adjacency.

Well, as I said earlier, I was doing my best to balance while we were dealing with river spaghetti issue. Polders need a buff generally.

 

[Llednar Twem]

It's also important to remember that polders aren't actually available until guilds. That's fairly well into the game. The long period of unavailability means it needs to be that much stronger relative to earlier uniques since it has that much less time to make a difference before the game ends.

 

[Funak]

It's also important to remember that polders aren't actually available until guilds. That's fairly well into the game. The long period of unavailability means it needs to be that much stronger relative to earlier uniques since it has that much less time to make a difference before the game ends.

Yeah, exactly, it is worth remembering that you're pretty much forced to first build farms on all these tiles and then replace the farms with polders once you reach guilds, you can't really go that long with unimproved tiles.

Unless you have a weird river system, it'll be hard to circle anything with polders. Generally you'll have a line of them on a fresh water source and TPs adjacent to them.

Well, situations do happen, I fairly often still see spots where I could have one polders with 6 adjacent polders, and pretty much being forced to slam a village into the middle of them because it gets an extra 6 yields feels silly. Just putting in a limit stopping that from happening would be nice, something to make sure that building a polder is actually always stronger than or at least equal to building a village.
If at all possible not letting the bonus to villages stack would probably be a good start, along with buffed up yields on the polder (and probably a farm style Adjacency bonus if that isn't already present)

 

[Atlas627]

Well, situations do happen, I fairly often still see spots where I could have one polders with 6 adjacent polders, and pretty much being forced to slam a village into the middle of them because it gets an extra 6 yields feels silly. Just putting in a limit stopping that from happening would be nice, something to make sure that building a polder is actually always stronger than or at least equal to building a village.
If at all possible not letting the bonus to villages stack would probably be a good start, along with buffed up yields on the polder (and probably a farm style Adjacency bonus if that isn't already present)

What's wrong with a UI sometimes not being the right thing to build? Especially if its because of how you strategically chose to use the UI elsewhere?

 

[Funak]

What's wrong with a UI sometimes not being the right thing to build? Especially if its because of how you strategically chose to use the UI elsewhere?

Because it looks terrible, feels terrible and leave a bad taste in the mouth? Finding a spot where you can build a 7 polder cluster should feel awesome, not feel like you have to ditch the middle polder for a village.

 

[PurpleMentat]

What's wrong with a UI sometimes not being the right thing to build? Especially if its because of how you strategically chose to use the UI elsewhere?

Personal preference. We have a competition of opinions and taste in this thread ATM, not direct balance concerns.

 

[Atlas627]

Because it looks terrible, feels terrible and leave a bad taste in the mouth? Finding a spot where you can build a 7 polder cluster should feel awesome, not feel like you have to ditch the middle polder for a village.

Why can't finding a spot where you have a 6-polder cluster with a spot in the middle for a village feel awesome instead?

Personal preference. We have a competition of opinions and taste in this thread ATM, not direct balance concerns.

Absolutely, which is my point. Funak doesn't like these things but he keeps saying it "can't work". He may not like it and that's fine, he doesn't have to like every civ in the game. But right now he's trying to say that if it doesn't amuse him it can't amuse anyone, so I'm arguing with that.

 

[Funak]

Why can't finding a spot where you have a 6-polder cluster with a spot in the middle for a village feel awesome instead?

Absolutely, which is my point. Funak doesn't like these things but he keeps saying it "can't work". He may not like it and that's fine, he doesn't have to like every civ in the game. But right now he's trying to say that if it doesn't amuse him it can't amuse anyone, so I'm arguing with that.

Not at all, your point is that I either have to like it or have to keep quiet. All I'm saying is that I think it's a silly idea that's going to be impossible to balance and look like a mess.
I'm saying that I think a unique improvement should feel awesome by itself, not feel like a mediocre farm that makes nearby villages feel awesome. That's not interesting design to me and makes the entire civilization feel dreadfully dull.
I'm saying that I think you should never choose to build a non-unique improvement instead of a unique improvement, you should be angry over the fact that you can't build it because a bonus-resource is blocking the tile.


And you're saying I don't have to like every civ in the game as if I'd never back down from this. For your information I've backed down in probably 20 leader balance discussions, I still think solutions are terrible, but they are there and no one else seems to care.

 

[Atlas627]

Not at all, your point is that I either have to like it or have to keep quiet. All I'm saying is that I think it's a silly idea that's going to be impossible to balance and look like a mess.
I'm saying that I think a unique improvement should feel awesome by itself, not feel like a mediocre farm that makes nearby villages feel awesome. That's not interesting design to me and makes the entire civilization feel dreadfully dull.
I'm saying that I think you should never choose to build a non-unique improvement instead of a unique improvement, you should be angry over the fact that you can't build it because a bonus-resource is blocking the tile.


And you're saying I don't have to like every civ in the game as if I'd never back down from this. For your information I've backed down in probably 20 leader balance discussions, I still think solutions are terrible, but they are there and no one else seems to care.

You absolutely can say you don't like the idea, but the way you've worded it is saying that nobody can like the idea because it is inherently flawed. So I'm not telling you to shut up if you don't like it, I'm saying you should talk about what you don't like about it rather than just naysaying that the whole idea is completely bad design objectively.

As for the reasons why you don't like it, I'm asking for some elaboration. You say the improvement itself is weak and I agree, but you say that improving adjacent tiles is inherently weak and I disagree. Why do you not associate the buffing of adjacent tiles with the original improvement? Its an effect of building the Polder and is thus something exciting about the Polder.

The buffed town you build is essentially an extra UI. Its special just like the Polder is.

And no, I'm not suggesting you wouldn't back down. I'm saying that just because it isn't fun for you doesn't mean it can't be fun for someone else.

 

[Funak]

You absolutely can say you don't like the idea, but the way you've worded it is saying that nobody can like the idea because it is inherently flawed. So I'm not telling you to shut up if you don't like it, I'm saying you should talk about what you don't like about it rather than just naysaying that the whole idea is completely bad design objectively.

First of all I don't understand why I have to give elaborate explanations about anything when no one can even give me one good reason why polders should buff villages. (And 'I like it' 'It is fun' 'It is different' 'It makes them special' are clearly not good reasons)

As for the reasons why you don't like it, I'm asking for some elaboration. You say the improvement itself is weak and I agree, but you say that improving adjacent tiles is inherently weak and I disagree.

Infinitely stacking adjacency-bonuses are a balancing mess. Just look at how the terrace farms in vanilla shifted between 'just farms on hills' to completely insanely overpowered between games just because they had out of control bonuses from adjacent mountains. This situation is way worse off, because the polders unlike mountains have to actually be workable tiles, in fact they have to be good enough to still look fun.

Why do you not associate the buffing of adjacent tiles with the original improvement? Its an effect of building the Polder and is thus something exciting about the Polder.

Because the adjacent tiles are not the original improvement. Buffing a bunch of non-special tiles is what a unique building does. A unique improvement is a cool tile that you should want to work. I mean I'm not spending 15 turns constructing an awesome looking chateau just to work the farm next to it, I'm spending 15 turns constructing it so that my city can work it.

The buffed town you build is essentially an extra UI. Its special just like the Polder is.

Except in this situation neither of them are special. The over all power of the civ can't be raised so all this is going to do is split the power between the village and the polder, meaning both of them would turn out mediocre at best, especially considering the liberal terrain-restrictions on the polder.

 

[Atlas627]

First of all I don't understand why I have to give elaborate explanations about anything when no one can even give me one good reason why polders should buff villages. (And 'I like it' 'It is fun' 'It is different' 'It makes them special' are clearly not good reasons)


Infinitely stacking adjacency-bonuses are a balancing mess. Just look at how the terrace farms in vanilla shifted between 'just farms on hills' to completely insanely overpowered between games just because they had out of control bonuses from adjacent mountains. This situation is way worse off, because the polders unlike mountains have to actually be workable tiles, in fact they have to be good enough to still look fun.


Because the adjacent tiles are not the original improvement. Buffing a bunch of non-special tiles is what a unique building does. A unique improvement is a cool tile that you should want to work. I mean I'm not spending 15 turns constructing an awesome looking chateau just to work the farm next to it, I'm spending 15 turns constructing it so that my city can work it.


Except in this situation neither of them are special. The over all power of the civ can't be raised so all this is going to do is split the power between the village and the polder, meaning both of them would turn out mediocre at best, especially considering the liberal terrain-restrictions on the polder.

Thank you for finally having some actual discussion.

The reason why you have to elaborate first is because you're the one arguing against status quo.

The Terrace Farms were never insanely overpowered because they were surrounded by unworkable tiles. They ranged from hill farms (which is not unique) to powerful single tiles surrounded by unworkable tiles. But I understand your point in theory. In the case of the Polders, the stacking yield they are providing is gold, which is already the least useful yield with the most inflation, so it doesn't seem to be overwhelming in its best form. The new CBP Terrace Farm might be a problem though, I haven't tried it.

An improvement buffs an individual tile of your choice in the form specific to the improvement type. I'm going to reword the improvements to help explain my point.

Polder: Provides strong yields, buildable only on freshwater tiles.
Dutch village: Provides normal village yields, +1 gold for each adjacent Polder.

Your final point is the only one that I think holds any merit at all, and is why I also did not want this rework. I like that the Polder had very difficult building conditions but provided very high yields as a result. This resulted in me planning my settling around trying to get Polder-able lands, which I found a lot of fun. However, in the case of games where I got a ton of valid land, it was too easy, and when I got none, it was too boring. Changing the requirements and yields to be more consistent seems fine. Additionally, the yields have been spread to the adjacent tiles as well, which means that the Polder itself is even weaker than before, but it is a different type of fun.

Now I don't see why the Dutch can't be buffed, since their UA received a significant nerf in the average use case by again changing the requirements and yields. So I don't see a reason why the Polders can't be stronger AND have the village mechanic.


Here is the argument I would make against the mechanic: there can only be so much power in the Polders. Some of that power is being spread to adjacent villages. Unique Improvements are not about boosting overall yields but about creating single amazing tiles. While a village adjacent to multiple Polders could be a single amazing tile and each Polder could also be good, it is difficult to balance that scenario to be consistent yet not overwhelming. Not impossible, but difficult. I think the Polder needs more power overall to balance this situation. The Polder needs to be strong enough to build by itself instead of farms in some situations. The scaling on villages needs to be better to create super villages.

Gazebo, what are you looking at for numbers? I think the Polder could use one more food or hammer for the base tile (its available at Guilds and on freshwater (which is also usually near flatlands) meaning its competing with river farm fields right out of the gate, which are either +3 or +4 food usually, so +3 food +1 hammer +1 gold seems good (since you aren't just losing the +3/4 food from one farm, but also +1 for some adjacent farms, so this should be usually but not always better). Then a scaling on villages of +2 gold or +1 food? Those villages are also probably replacing farms and farm adjacencies.