The new crazed

[Imuratep]

As I said if you give the unit a movement order at end of your turn you can still decide where it should go. So actually now the enraged promotion doesn't do anything, except that you have to decide one turn before what you want to do.
For units at AC 90 this isn't an option, but for highly promoted units or the few units that get enraged before it is worth doing it

 

[Jules.lt]

That could have saved me a Guybrush in the Momus scenario...

 

[Ranos]

Ranos, I think you're partially right, but you're attaching too much of a value judgment to "Civvers" and "RPGers." Because of my background as a Magic player, here's what I kept thinking when I read this thread: "this is an argument between Timmy and Spike." The two primary positions in this arguments are kind of arguing past one another.

Here's what I see as the Spike side of it: "I want to play chess, not roulette. The change to crazed/enraged moves this away from 'game I play' and towards 'thing I watch.' Crazed/enraged used to be a calculated risk that added strategic depth. Now the calculation has been simplified: delete the unit immediately, because good results are vanishingly rare and results worse than just losing the unit are likely. Because I am losing control, especially in the specific areas of high-AC game states, Baron Duin Halfmorn, and Mutate/Chaos-using civs, the strategic depth of the game as a whole has been reduced. This change hurts my ability to engage with the game."

Here's what I see the Timmy side answering: "This is part of a vibrant and fully realized world. It increases the depth of immersion into Erebus. Bad things happen in that world, and that's okay because it makes playing the game more of an interesting, dynamic, emotionally engaging experience. This change helps my ability to engage with the game."

I hope you realize that you just said the same basic thing I said. I just didn't elaborate quite as much.

Civvers are about strategy. This moves here, this goes here, this gets built, etc. They are in total control of their part of the game with limited or no randomness (except for combat results and events). RPGers are about the story and trying to figure out ways around an unexpected and practically uncontrollable situation. They enjoy the thrill of not necessarily knowing what's going to happen until it's right in their face.

With that said, here's my input: FFH's primary audience is the Spikes of Civ. The wonderful thing about looking for narrative and engagement is that with imagination, you can find 'em anywhere. The Timmy voices in this thread have certainly demonstrated ample imagination. I think that this change is a misstep by the design team: they've already demonstrated many times in the past that it's possible to add flavor, depth, and richness to the world, to create an emotionally engaging experience, without doing it at the expense of equally engaging strategy mechanics. The change we're discussing doesn't live up to the standards that they've previously held themselves to: it's not that making a strategy-for-story tradeoff is inherently bad, it's that this particular one is a really bad tradeoff that affects large areas of the game. It should be stricken from the mechanics.

I am, of course, going to have to disagree with you here. If FFH's audience was the Spikes or Civvers of Civilization, it would be more Civ like. FFH has had a lot more flavor and color added to it. Let's also not forget that the entire idea for FFH along with the Civs, heros and, let's face it, just about everything else about the mod, is based off of Kael's D&D experiences.

If you also look at a number of the newer posts, a lot of people have been going out and buying Civ4 just so they can play FFH. In other words, they saw Civ4 before and had no real interest in it because it wasn't the type of game they thought they would enjoy. Tell them about a mod that crosses the best aspects of Civ4 with and RPG and they rush out and spend $$$ to get the game, just so they can play the mod.

I am however aware that this is a game based off of civ and a lot of the people playing it want that strategy aspect. That's why I think there should be a way to regain control of your enraged units and not just let them run around on their own forever. A spell and or unit that can remove enraged or at least give you control of that enraged unit should be added in.

Other options, either to work with my above suggestions or replace them, are:

• Having enraged have a % chance to wear off every turn.
• Add a second promo that functions like the old enraged that could be added instead of enraged (this would only be for certain times of the game like AC 90) or the two could be completely randomly interchanged where you sometimes get enraged and sometimes get the other promo.
• Combine the two systems together where your unit is under AI control but has a chance to become a barbarian unit every turn.

There are probably other options as well I just can't think of them at the moment.

I do agree that this is an arguement that will never be won, but it may produce some good ideas and a solution that will work for both sides.

 

[Sarisin]

So, I'm playing my 3rd FFH2 (.40n) game as the Luchiurp. I build the Baron for the 2nd time in my 3 games.

Let me refresh you as to how the new Crazed/Enraged works when you play the Baron. Well, actually, there is no Crazed. When the Baron kills a living unit, he has a chance of creating a Ravenous Werewolf. So far the Baron has almost 100 XP, mostly from killing Hippus units and a few barbs. He has created 10 Ravenous Werewolves.

The Ravenous Werewolves are created with Enraged and IMMEDIATELY leave your control. You have zero chance to do anything with them. If they should happen to kill a living unit, they get promoted to Blooded Werewolf.

So, that's 10 Ravenous Werewolves. Care to guess how many Blooded Werewolves I have?

Zero. That's right. Every Ravenous Werewolf was killed and didn't upgrade to a Blooded Werewolf.

Now, 10 is not a huge sample size and I'm sure some are thinking, ah, Sarisin, it's just a run of bad luck. It happens all the time in FFH2.

Maybe, but I watched as five of these Ravenous Werewolves scooted right past very killable targets such as Workers, Wounded Hippus units and the occasional barb (Wolf Rider, Goblin, etc.). Instead these genius Ravenous Werewolves decided to take on promoted Champions and Horse Archers, and, my favorite, Archers and Champions fortified in cities - that's like an Al Queda suicide bomber armed with one of the New Year's Eve party poppers going head-on with an Abrams M-1.

I am fairly certain that had I had control of the newly created Ravenous Werewolves even for a few turns, I could have turned at least half of them into Blooded Werewolves. But, no, the AI killed them all off for me.

I play and enjoy all kinds of computer games. I don't care what your favorite genre is and how you like to play, this is just not interesting or fun.

My two suggestions:

1. Give some control to the player for a few turns and give him a chance to kill something. The old way of being Crazed and not turning Enraged immediately would be an improvement.

2. Eliminate the whole Werewolf creation deal. As it is now, all this does is cost you maintenance while they run around (thankfully not long) and provides XP for the enemy. Sadly, this would take out one of the most fun features of the game IMO, but it is better than having what you have now.

Now, I know someone will say, hey, if you don't like how this works, you don't have to build the Baron, do you? There is even an option that takes ole Furball out of the game. True, although he is a decent hero that any civ can build.

But, I think with a few tweaks OR a return to the way it used to be, this very good feature of the game could be back.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

The Ravenous Werewolves are created with Enraged and IMMEDIATELY leave your control. You have zero chance to do anything with them. If they should happen to kill a living unit, they get promoted to Blooded Werewolf.

So what? The old way would be that they would become barbarian and attack one of your weakest units...RIP.

I had the same happened to me with just created Lunatics. I was at war and was hoping to turn the odds. They had changed to barbarian immediately upon production and I lost a city by them, which it was a hell to regain with the war and all... Much better now! I prefer having a unit act on its own but allied to me than having it become my enemy...

 

[Fafnir13]

They were a part of your game. You used them in an effective way to attack your enemies. Now you can no longer do that and you don't like it. Instead of trying to figure out a new way to use them, you are just complaining that you can't use them the old way.

Your right. I can no longer select my unit and tell it where to attack. There goes my entire strategy.

As for the new idea, I was trying to figure out someway to include random with useful. Honestly, I really don't like it either. Just throwing stuff at the wall to see if it sticks. I think it hit with a splat and slid slowly down...yeah, didn't look like it stuck.
Not complaining. It's where it belongs.

Instead of complaining about not being able to use them how you did before, try and figure out new ways to use them. Just sitting here writing this post, I have already though of a couple of ways they could possibly be used and will propbably try them in my next game.

By all means, enlighten. All I can possibly come up with is build lots of them and hope for the best. In anything other then a steamroll of a game, I don't see how slightly boosted units attacking at random does anything for you. They don't do anything special/unique other then attack at poor odds with no back-up plan.

So what? The old way would be that they would become barbarian and attack one of your weakest units...RIP.

That's what the Good Baron's retinue of beastmasters was for. Any errant werewolf that thought it knew better who needed a good bighting got a good smack and then came back into your service, although a bit worn out from the lesson. I know under normal turns, you do get a chance to attack any of your units turned barbarian. I know I played a game with simultaneous turns where I made good use of the Baron, but I can't remember if you get to go attack it first in that situation as well.

I had the same happened to me with just created Lunatics. I was at war and was hoping to turn the odds. They had changed to barbarian immediately upon production and I lost a city by them, which it was a hell to regain with the war and all... Much better now! I prefer having a unit act on its own but allied to me than having it become my enemy...

I liked having that small element of danger remaining, even with loyalty casters waiting to cast. Usually just meant a little heavier of a garrison in any city popping crazed units and never, ever building heroes out of those cities. Planning for the dangerous long shots does pay off occasionally.

On a different note, I thought I might mention the lone crazed unit I've got in my current game, contracted via my singular dungeon exploration. Normally I'd just delete the unit, but I thought I'd give him a chance to show me what's so fun about the new enraged. Thus far, he's proved rather boring, sitting and guarding his assigned city. Might run off if I clicked on him, but I don't feel the need to feed the local hill giants. I've never seen one with 5 star and 4 drill before now, let alone several...
I find this arrangement rather passive. Yes, I could click and potentially send him on his merry way, but that would be the end of it. I'm not even required to watch him as anything he does is going to be negligible against the backdrop of global conquest I've got going.
I know that under the old enraged I'd need to at least get him out of my core territory to avoid trouble when he inevitably turned. If I could get him to the front lines, even better as the enraged promo would make him excellent cannon fodder. If not, there'd at least be one more barbarian unit to siphon xp off of.
This is the difference I'm finding most annoying: Passive vs Active. New enraged requires nothing of the player. Just sit back and watch the show (if there is one). Old one at least required you to take note of it and react accordingly.

 

[Medicine_Man_55]

Of course, it is possible to go into the Civ4unitinfor.xml and remove the enraged promotion from the ravenous werewolf entry. Problem solved.

 

[Sarisin]

So what? The old way would be that they would become barbarian and attack one of your weakest units...RIP.

Not at all. The old way, as you call it, had two advantages, and more importantly some control for the player:

1. The Crazed Ravenous Werewolf didn't always go barbarian immediately like it does now. You did have a chance to try and kill another living unit without the AI taking control and ignoring easy to kill targets.

2. You had the now obsoleted Law I Loyalty spell to use. I always tried to have an Adept with Law I with the Baron to make those Ravenous Werewolves immediately Loyal so they wouldn't go barb. Then, I could take my time and choose my targets to turn him into a Blooded Werewolf.

I know some thought this was an exploit for some reason. I don't know why. It makes sense and is really no different than mass-using Spirit I/Courage to prepare your guys for the arrival of the Horsemen.

Again, I just wanted to give this example from my game on building the Baron and how it is working. It is NOT a big problem like AC90 - although I must admit I get the Baron in my games more than AC 90. I just go back to my two suggestions. Either change the way this immediate Enraged is assigned (or have some calming spell) or just remove the lychantropy spreading mechanism from the game.

 

[Ranos]

@ Sarisin

I just built the Baron in my current game and got a Ravenous Werewolf on my second combat. I watched as he started wondering around. He came across a Barb Axeman walking through the forest and decided to ignore him. A short while later He came across another Barb Axeman wandering through the open tundra and attacked him and won. I now have a Blooded Werewolf.

I'm thinking there may be another bug or possible feature that comes with Enraged.

From the couple of examples you have given in this thread, it looks like you were at war when your Ravenous Werewolves went off and suicided against the walls of a city. If that is the case and in all examples they died trying to attack cities, then it is probably a bug that makes the AI head straight for a city instead of attacking other units along the way.

If it wasn't always attacking cities (or you weren't always at war) then it may be a feature that forces the Enraged unit to ignore a random number of units before attacking. This could also be a bug.

Just a note on my successful Werewolf, I was not at war with anybody at the time.

@ Fafnir13

I haven't had a chance to test them yet but both ways I thought of using them was as diversions. The best way I think it would work would be to build a bunch of lunatics, 5-10, while at peace. Let them start wandering around and when you have a SOD ready to go out and attack, declare war. Im' betting the Lunies would head straight for your enemies border. Send the SOD in while the lunies are attacking various differnt cities and the AI may have moved some of it's units out of the city you are planning to attack. This might mak it a bit easier to take the city.

The other way would be to move your SOD next to the borders and declare war. Hit the city right away while the Lunies are still heading for the enemy. After you have taken the city, the Lunies may draw off units that would otherwise come at you for a counter attack. They'd also probably draw off other defenders allowing you to take a smaller stack in to take a second city.

Just thoughts here obviously but you never know until you try.

 

[Sarisin]

@ Sarisin

I just built the Baron in my current game and got a Ravenous Werewolf on my second combat. I watched as he started wondering around. He came across a Barb Axeman walking through the forest and decided to ignore him. A short while later He came across another Barb Axeman wandering through the open tundra and attacked him and won. I now have a Blooded Werewolf.

I'm thinking there may be another bug or possible feature that comes with Enraged.

From the couple of examples you have given in this thread, it looks like you were at war when your Ravenous Werewolves went off and suicided against the walls of a city. If that is the case and in all examples they died trying to attack cities, then it is probably a bug that makes the AI head straight for a city instead of attacking other units along the way.

If it wasn't always attacking cities (or you weren't always at war) then it may be a feature that forces the Enraged unit to ignore a random number of units before attacking. This could also be a bug.

Just a note on my successful Werewolf, I was not at war with anybody at the time.

Ranos, I agree with you about there being something wrong with the AI-Controlled Ravenous Werewolves and their targeting. That is why I would like to see this taken out of the hands of the AI and given back to the player where it belongs.

Really, I have seen the avoiding of fat targets for tougher ones issue whether I was at war or not. For example, it a previous game I saw an out of control Ravenous Werewolf ignore a barb chariot that withdrew (strength 0.x) and go after another unit.

If I recall, the odds of a Ravenous Werewolf defeating a barb Axeman are not overwhelming, especially if the Axeman has a terrain bonus. The Ravenous Werewolf is improved with Enraged, but that was not a gimme win. If I had control, I might have waited for a Warrior, Goblin, Chariot, or Wolf Rider.

This WAS the first time I noticed them throwing themselves up against the walls of cities.

Also, I'm wondering why, instead of just moving around looking for tough targets, they don't do any pillaging? And, if they did, I would think I would get the Gold, right? At least I would get something before they did their suicide thing.

 

[Ranos]

Ranos, I agree with you about there being something wrong with the AI-Controlled Ravenous Werewolves and their targeting. That is why I would like to see this taken out of the hands of the AI and given back to the player where it belongs.

Really, I have seen the avoiding of fat targets for tougher ones issue whether I was at war or not. For example, it a previous game I saw an out of control Ravenous Werewolf ignore a barb chariot that withdrew (strength 0.x) and go after another unit.

If I recall, the odds of a Ravenous Werewolf defeating a barb Axeman are not overwhelming, especially if the Axeman has a terrain bonus. The Ravenous Werewolf is improved with Enraged, but that was not a gimme win. If I had control, I might have waited for a Warrior, Goblin, Chariot, or Wolf Rider.

This WAS the first time I noticed them throwing themselves up against the walls of cities.

Also, I'm wondering why, instead of just moving around looking for tough targets, they don't do any pillaging? And, if they did, I would think I would get the Gold, right? At least I would get something before they did their suicide thing.

Hopefully the team will try fixing the AI control first before resorting to bringing back the old enraged.

It would be nice if Kael would jump in and let us know if the attack behavior is a bug with teh system or a feature. If it's a feature, I'll be the first to say the system if flawed and needs to be changed. If it's a bug, hopefully they are already hard at work trying to fix it.

 

[Smakemupagus]

Hmm, just a brainstorm, what do you guys think about this:

if an Enraged unit that spends a turn camped in a town with an Asylum it gets the "Straightjacketed" promo for 10 turns

"Straightjacketed" gives the unit a large combat minus (like -4 first strikes or -50%) but makes it controlable.

In this scenario Crazed will no longer ruin settlers or great people, and will allow you to get some benefit out of crazed mages, and will give you an opportunity to at least direct your lunatics in the general vicinity of where they're wanted.

 

[Fafnir13]

Move and then unleash. That would be much better then the utterly random results we have currently. Still would need a bit more as allowing only OO to counter crazed doesn't seem right.

@ Ranos

In your proposed situations, wouldn't you be better off building low level units of much smaller hammer cost then building lunatics? If you're looking for a diversion that can take a hit or two, some champions with mobility would more then suffice. They cost the same hammers as a lunatic, have better defense, and don't require an extra building.
The biggest bonus is that you can then control where your diversion is diverting, rather then rolling the dice to see what happens.

 

[Sarisin]

Hmm, just a brainstorm, what do you guys think about this:

if an Enraged unit that spends a turn camped in a town with an Asylum it gets the "Straightjacketed" promo for 10 turns

"Straightjacketed" gives the unit a large combat minus (like -4 first strikes or -50%) but makes it controlable.

In this scenario Crazed will no longer ruin settlers or great people, and will allow you to get some benefit out of crazed mages, and will give you an opportunity to at least direct your lunatics in the general vicinity of where they're wanted.

Nice idea, but what if you don't have OO as your religion and cannot build Asylums?

Also, when the Baron kills a living unit, for example, he gets an Enraged Ravenous Werewolf sometimes. You lose control of the unit immediately. How do you get it to go to a city with the asylum?

 

[Jules.lt]

I love this idea. It makes lunatics worthwhile
(Edit: and it doesn't involve any complicated new mechanic, so it's more likely to actually happen)
Maybe make the promotion last a bit less, though. 4-5 turns sounds better to me.

Non-OO civs still need a counter to crazed/enraged, of course, but who says that a problem can't have several solutions?
(hint: the medicine tech and medic2/medic3 units could have an effect)

I actually like that ravenous werewolves should run around until they're "blooded". Your baron is probably in a battle with numerous weak targets at hand anyway.
For the player experience to be improved, I think that the enraged units AI should be allowed less randomness and go more directly to whatever target they can find (whatever the probabilities). It's the bypassing of weak targets to go get killed further away that is most frustrating to players, imho.
Then at least when the player creates a werewolf he has some idea of what's going to happen to it, just by looking at the close targets.

Also, the effect enraged could be differentiated depending on the unit type. A combat unit should clearly go kill something.
On the other hand, a 0 unit is endangered enough running around as it is. I think those should skip the "agressive" part and get a decent chance of calming down by themselves (say 3-5% per turn).
As for mages, I'm sure that we can find creative ways to make them more interesting before they get killed
Of course, the player shouldn't be able to make his enraged units cast spells when he feels like it.

 

[Afterburner]

Just to toss out more anecdotal information:

As a n00b player, the first time I got to the endgame was with the Grigori. One of my early adventurers was now a Dragon Slayer with 150+ xp and a brace of promotions. He was instrumental in helping me defend my territory against the depredations of the grasping Lanun. After the war died down and peace was declared, I gave him the order to move to a nearby city, where he would stay until needed again.

And somehow -- I'm still not entirely clear on how -- he got the Mutated promotion. And that gave him the Crazed promotion. Which gave him the Enraged promotion.

And for the next 200+ turns, he wandered aimlessly around my territory, not doing anything. Occasionally I'd check on him via the Military screen, and he'd be somewhere within my (rather sizeable) culture borders. Always with 0/2 movement and always with the Enraged promotion.

Eventually, I took Open Borders with Lanun, and he started wandering around in their territory, and got killed by Stephanos.

Whee.

 

[SwampCow]

I don't mind either way, really, but wouldn't a fairly simple solution- one that doesn't affect balance- be to simply have crazed/enrage trigger once a unit leaves your borders and not in them? Maybe make that a facet of Asylums? That way you can corral them in your territories and then let them loose across the border. I think that would make for an exciting and entertaining attack. See stacks of crazed units amass at borders and then watch to see how many break off in a fit of rage and start rampaging as you begin your offensive. Maybe that's just me though.

 

[Caradoc]

Let me just jump in here to observe that there might be two different dynamics needed here. One is 'Berserk', where the unit goes off attacking anything nearby until it gets a kill or becomes exhausted. The other is 'Lunatic' where the unit stops taking orders and its actions become irrational.

 

[Iceciro]

I really, really like the idea of the "Straitjacket" Promo coming from OO Asylums- they synergize well with the civs that start with Chaos mana, and it'd honestly be really nice to see the Overlords doing something that doesn't NEED a water map to be highly helpful. I'd even really like to see Orderlies... low strength units who have a sole purpose of restraining Enraged units in an AoE.

Also, all the downing on the old system seems to be that you'd just use it as a free boon - loyal crazed units are stronger. Why don't we just make calm remove the promo, and thus the bonuses it gets? Say "Soothe" as a low level Mind/Spirit spell, or "Command" instead of Loyalty...

"Removes the Enraged promotion from all units in the stack and prevents them from gaining the Enraged promotion for 4 turns." This solves the "suddenly, ******** units are running into the hinterlands to get eaten by bears" and solves the "Enrage + Law I = stronger units at no loss"

 

[Sarisin]

I really, really like the idea of the "Straitjacket" Promo coming from OO Asylums- they synergize well with the civs that start with Chaos mana, and it'd honestly be really nice to see the Overlords doing something that doesn't NEED a water map to be highly helpful. I'd even really like to see Orderlies... low strength units who have a sole purpose of restraining Enraged units in an AoE.

Also, all the downing on the old system seems to be that you'd just use it as a free boon - loyal crazed units are stronger. Why don't we just make calm remove the promo, and thus the bonuses it gets? Say "Soothe" as a low level Mind/Spirit spell, or "Command" instead of Loyalty...

"Removes the Enraged promotion from all units in the stack and prevents them from gaining the Enraged promotion for 4 turns." This solves the "suddenly, ******** units are running into the hinterlands to get eaten by bears" and solves the "Enrage + Law I = stronger units at no loss"

I still think if you are going to use something like that for OO, you need a similar system for the rest of the religious followers.

Loyal crazed units are stronger, but don't they also suffer a penalty when it comes to defending? I've found that often they will get killed as they spin around looking for targets as their defend strength is lower.

Also, when you put Loyalty on a Ravenous Werewolf it does make it stronger (weaker on defense), but only until that first kill- then, it loses the Enraged promotion. Of course, it does become a Blooded Werewolf, but I thought that was the whole idea behind the Lychantropy feature in FFH2 - build the Baron, create Ravenous Werewolves, upgrade to Blooded and Greater Werewolves, make a movie starring Jack Nicholson or Lon Chaney Jr..

As it works now, you really only have the Baron, a fine hero in his own right, but Lychantropy is really dead in the game.