The new crazed

[Imuratep]

I think that Balseraphs and OOs should have some incentive to keep people crazy, so they should have special ways to handle crazy people (and be able to do something with these#%$! lunatics)

- crazy people don't get enraged while in a city with an asylum
- asylums allow the creation of "handlers": crazy people don't get enraged while on the same square as a handler (or maybe you can just give that ability to cultists?)

I don't know the Balseraphs well enough to say what could be appropriate...

As a OO-fanatic I have thought for quite some time that the crazed promotion should be part of a OO mechanic - think of the monstrosities in Lovecraft's stories or of those included in FFH. How about a new promotion named "Nameless Horrors" only available for OO units with the Demon or Undead promotion that gives a unit that attacked you the enraged promotion (or too make it stronger, units that are in the stack of the attacked unit have the chance too get it)? You could even introduce an enhanced version of it that gives the Crazed promotion (both promotions should of course have large requirements like fear for "Nameless Horrors1" and "Nameless Horrors1" for "Nameless Horrors2".)
In Lovecraft's stories those who have been confrontated with the atrocious creatures of the Old Ones at the end of the story turn mad. My proposition IMHO would reflect it quite well.

 

[Fafnir13]

I'm not sure that fear of the nameless evil nasty things with tentacles and spikes in places they have no place being would really inspire affected enemy units to attack. Shouldn't they be buggering off in fear leaving a trail of umentionable leavings in their wake?
I do really, really prefer the thought of enrage's new effects being an offensive ability. Sort of like taunt but much more random.

 

[Jules.lt]

It's been suggested before that ennemy units in OO territory (with the shrine) should have a chance to go crazy, a la Nox Noctis.

Crazed would be too powerful, though, and enraged might actually help the enemy in some cases, since obviously there are targets around. But mostly they'd just lose control of some units.

Most of the time crazy units just die a stupid death, unlike Krovus.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

It's been suggested before that enemy units in OO territory (with the shrine) should have a chance to go crazy, a la Nox Noctis.

I really like this idea. quite flavourful and LOTS of fun

 

[Imuratep]

You're right, in the way enraged works right now it does not make much sense. It would be more fitting the way it was before or as a long termed version of fear that prevents the unit from being able to attack or to enter enemy borders or to use its abilities for a certain number of turns.

 

[[NWO]_Valis]

For me the biggest down fall of it [aside that your heroes could go wankers] is that it does not affect the AI at all. It already has a lot of bonuses for maintenance and inflation but this one is just unfair :/

 

[loocas]

Does it really not affect the AI? Crazed has its own "more aggressive" priorities. Won't they still wander off and attack anything? Or is the AI always like that? Speak up, AI!

 

[Sarisin]

Does it really not affect the AI? Crazed has its own "more aggressive" priorities. Won't they still wander off and attack anything? Or is the AI always like that? Speak up, AI!

From what I saw, Enraged units were just sitting in the AI cities. I had a few of them too I discovered. However, when I clicked on the Enraged unit, it took off (initially with the rest of the units attached to it, but I think that has been fixed).

So, the AI would not click on those units and they would be unaffected.

The strange thing was that I know they must have had some Enraged units they were using and I never saw them wandering around like mine were.

 

[Asthix]

The fact that most AI units are exempted from the effects of the new enraged simply cannot be intended. I defy anyone to claim that it's entertaining when the player gets nerfed but not the AI.

 

[Dux_]

The real issue is losing control of a possibly valuable unit, the fact that a enraged hero may go off & kill himself it's just not right. Take away the fun of mutating heroes Can we get a fix on this?

 

[Sarisin]

The real issue is losing control of a possibly valuable unit, the fact that a enraged hero may go off & kill himself it's just not right. Take away the fun of mutating heroes Can we get a fix on this?

In the game I posted under the AC 90 thread, I did not lose any heroes or veteran units. They were too strong and finally won a combat. However, when AC 90 hit, there were almost no viable targets in the game (no wars, no barbs), so I basically lost use of the units for a long time as they couldn't kill anything.

I did manage to lose a few high XP Moebius Witches I was saving to upgrade to Eaters of Dreams, a few Great People, an Adventurer ( future hero), and a bunch of Workers.

 

[Imuratep]

I don't have a problem with the AI getting boni as it is too dumb to use most of the special mechanics of FFH. But it shouldn't be this mechanic as it doesn't do enough to help out the AI.
What is the use for the AI in the named cases: none. Lunatics sitting in cities doing nothing are no use. Or would you build lunatics as city defenders? If someone really has seen an AI unit with Enraged that acts as normal that's a different story.
Concerning mutation and dungeons: You have a choice if you want to risk to lose your hero. Chaosmana should be in some way risky and you can choose not to enter dungeons. The only issue with this mechanic IMHO is AC 90 (as it is inevitable) and Lunatics (as they are quite useless right now).

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I do believe this post deserves to be posted again. check it out. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7609326&postcount=14

 

[Medicine_Man_55]

I have no problems with Crazed being a nasty, incurable, bastard of a promotion. It is really, really hard to accidentally get a unit crazed. You can get crazed units from an asylum, by casting mutate, from an event, or from some bad results while exploring dungeons/barrows/lairs. All of these things are avoidable for any unit you don't want to lose.

The Enraged promotion, Crazed's little brother, is a little bit easier to get but still is mostly avoidable for any valuable unit. My only real objection to the new enraged mechanic is that it castrates Duin Halfmorn's unique mechanic and makes the emergence of the Avatar of Wrath more comical than terrifying.

 

[Sarisin]

I have no problems with Crazed being a nasty, incurable, bastard of a promotion. It is really, really hard to accidentally get a unit crazed. You can get crazed units from an asylum, by casting mutate, from an event, or from some bad results while exploring dungeons/barrows/lairs. All of these things are avoidable for any unit you don't want to lose.

The Enraged promotion, Crazed's little brother, is a little bit easier to get but still is mostly avoidable for any valuable unit. My only real objection to the new enraged mechanic is that it castrates Duin Halfmorn's unique mechanic and makes the emergence of the Avatar of Wrath more comical than terrifying.

Your point and Imuratep's is exactly what I am saying.

The player has choices for the most part whether his units get Crazed/Enraged. You don't have to build Lunatics, Freaks (although the Balseraphs would not be so good), the Baron. You don't have to use Mutation on your units. There are a few ways you can still get mutation (lairs, etc.), but with AC 90 many of your units get this and it just takes the game away from you. As someone already said, why play 100s of turns in a game to come up against this -every time.

I suppose the player does have some control over the counter increasing, but in game with AV, Hyborem, lots of Evil civs, etc. you are doomed.

For anyone who has played .40 and reached AC 90, I think you will agree it needs to be modified in some way - either the event or the way you deal with the Enraged given to most your units. If you haven't yet hit AC 90 play a game with your goal to raise the counter and get there to see what happens.

 

[notque]

I think crazed should stay how it is, but i do agree 100% that AC90 is a bug that needs to be fixed.

And the AI must be changed so that crazed matters to them.

 

[Ranos]

After thinking about it, I think that there should be a second promotion added that works like the old enraged. This promotion would be used at AC 90. The concept behind enraged at AC 90 (or at least from the history I've read on it here) is that the world is ending and everyone is freaking out.

Additionally, with the way it used to work where all of the units would be transported to The Avatar's location, was that the only way these units could see to survive was by giving into the very evil they feared and become servants. I kind of picture the scene in The Mummy where all of the people are serving Imhotep.

The new enraged would be used like it is now but a priest and/or spirit spell needs to be added to remove enraged from your units if you don't want it. Additionally, there should be a new unit, another spell for priests or a building effect that allows crazed units to be held. This could either last until you release them or until the unit is healed. This way, enraged units that have taken damage can at least heal.

I also think it would be cool to give Ravenous Werewolves HN but remove it automatically when they become Blooded.

 

[Fafnir13]

You don't have to build Lunatics...

But I like them.
Allow me to elaborate. My very first game of FFH, I went random civ and got the Lanun. Eventually got OO and started playing around with their various unique units. One of them that stood out was this crazy thing called a lunatic. Essentially a mob of crazies running around wielding flails, they struck a cord with me somehow. Even better, they were a dynamic unit with this great little random buff that made every turn with them like Christmas. Will my little lunatics go crazy and get better at killing things this turn? Ooh! You did! Good job little lunatics.

I managed to finish that game, played many more, then upgraded to BtS after some deliberation. Thanks to the lack of up to date pedia entry, I did not realize for a long time that loyalty prevented units from turning barbarian without also dying. In a way, I lost my beloved little lunatics. Even made a post at one time decrying the existence of crazed. That's when I learned that loyalty did work and once again my legions of flail wielding guys were out having fun.

But no more. Once again they have been banished to the backside of the world. If you use them as fodder units, the crazed ain't so bad, but their building also adds the risk of any unit coming out crazed and they don't get a lower % chance to turn like lunatics. That and the unhappiness makes creating an unwieldy mob even less attractive.

Anyways....

NEW IDEA

No more wandering units. That just bights. Instead, make them attack any non-owner unit with 1 tile. For even more fun, they do not attack the stacks chief defender. They attack randomly. The enraged promotion retains move and attack bonus as well as the old school chance to turn barbarian. This accomplishes several things.

1: Enraged is still dangerous. Allies might not like it if you're killing their units and you will still need loyalty to guarantee you keep your units.

2: Enraged units are still a viable part of the army. Scattered units are useless, and little but fodder. You still have to handle them with care as they will attack if you get them too close.

3: Enraged gives something of a benefit with the ability to attack randomly in a stack. Or not. They might just waste attacks on workers or not even attack the stack you want them too, but you might just get lucky. Plenty of randomness but with an element of control. Like a funky bomb in ye olde scorched earth. You may not control where all the random shots are going, but you at least can aim the core shot. Sorry if no one else get the analogy.

Anyways, that's my NEW IDEA. Let me know what you think.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I like Ranos' idea. you could have Crazed have a chance to make the unit go crazy, i.e. controlled by an aggressive AI like enraged does now .

and then you have enraged which gives them a chance to go barbarian. then you can use one or the other depending on which one fits better. AC 90 should have units going barbarian for example. sounds like an easy solution.

 

[Algeroth]

I don't see a need for a change. I'm more pleased with the new enraged than with the former. The only things that needs addressing is the AC 90 and efect on AI.

My 0.02 gold