1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

The next beta- changelog

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    18,033
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    Hey all,

    I'm still catching up and testing things, but here's my working changelog based on the discussions and feedback I've received over the past few weeks. Thanks again for your invaluable help. I'm pasting this 'raw' (i.e. no bullets) because, frankly, I'm sleepy. :)

    These changes aren't 'locked' but they're also relatively agreed upon. I'd like to use this set of changes for the next beta if they don't cause a riot.

    Cheers,
    G
     
    diaul, Txurce, Beniito and 1 other person like this.
  2. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    3,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere in California
    seems good 12 new spies instead of 4 spy now I can definitely guarantee 21 diplomats inside all my enemy's capitals
     
  3. Glidergun

    Glidergun Chieftain

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2014
    Messages:
    59
    I might suggest "Mare Nostrum" as a name for the Autocracy naval tenet.
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  4. Aldebaran1997

    Aldebaran1997 Prince

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    512
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheonan, South Korea
    Cool. I'm looking forward to releasing next beta so much. How does New Deal now work on Towns or Holy Sites? It used to increase +2 their respective yields iirc. And I think barb-cannot-plunder handicap needs to be scaled with game speed as well.
     
    vyyt likes this.
  5. Beniito

    Beniito Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    Messages:
    106
    No change to stingy open borders ? :cry:
     
  6. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    3,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere in California
    Honestly I would be fine with paying 20-30 GPT for their open borders if it meant I could flex my armies through a war, but their stinginess prevents them from getting rich. :cry:
     
    Bromar1 likes this.
  7. Beniito

    Beniito Warlord

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    Messages:
    106
    Yeah i wouldnt mind paying a hefty price especially if that means I can move my army to strategic position, however in this beta AI doesnt give you open borders unless you're super friendly with them. I reckon thats a little hard to do if there are many civs in play and you're one to wage wars.
    I don't think open borders should come cheap, I just think they shouldn't be impossible if the AI you're asking for open borders is at least neutral.
    I've had instances when when even friendly civs won't allow open borders and not only that but they also dont want my open borders...
     
  8. ElliotS

    ElliotS Warmonger

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2013
    Messages:
    2,868
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Tampa, Florida
    This is an overall nerf to autocracy. Lightning Warfare as written here is massively over-nerfed. Additionally Autarky is still bad. It adds a restriction AND only provides like 100 GPT in good scenarios. I can't see it being anything but an F.

    Honestly a lot of these buffs feel like they're not where they should be. For example:
    "New World Order - +50% construction speed for Constab/Police Station" Should be +100% speed. It's not like the police station is a good building regardless.

    As it is I can't imagine choosing Autocracy over Order for any real reason. Autocracy is a bunch of Cs and Fs with a few OP policies, but instead of balancing it it feels like a disguised nerf.

    Also: "Gunboat Diplomacy (edited) - Gunboat Diplomacy +6 Influence (Standard speed) per turn from City-States you can bully. 50% easier to bully City-States, and unit gifts to City-States generate 40 Influence." Is it really that hard to code Tribute GAINS Influence? I'm not being snide, I'm literally wondering how hard it would be. Because that seems infinitely more flavorful and better. This just turns your units into diplomats, which isn't T3 material.

    Regardless I think you need to remove the "-1000 Relations too high" modifier from bullying. It's still an F as it is, but would be a C if you did that.

    So to sum up my opinion on the newer, crappier, autocracy:

    Autarky - F

    Elite Forces - A

    Futurism - A

    Lebensraum - A

    Military-Industrial Complex - A


    New World Order - C

    United Front - F


    T2

    Lightning Warfare - F

    Martial Spirit - A

    Blue-Water Doctrine - C

    Police State - A

    Syndicalism - A


    Third Alternative - A

    Total War - C or A (Hard to tell with this one. I feel much more certain on other ones)

    T3s
    Air Supremacy
    - A

    Cult of Personality - A

    Gunboat Diplomacy - F


    ---

    To be clear I really do appreciate what you do any love most of the new patch. It's just this issue I disagree on, and I want to make sure that I don't come off too harsh. I'm playing Galactic Civilizations 3: Crusade now and seeing the dumb AI makes me so grateful to you. Thanks again for the awesome work!
     
  9. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,500
    Bulbing of Great Scientists, Merchants, and Engineers now scales based on the number of GP UIs of their type you own.

    How will this work/change the current system?
     
  10. Enrico Swagolo

    Enrico Swagolo Deity

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2013
    Messages:
    2,387
    Order and Freedom seem good, they've gained more options. But I'll be honest, I dislike the new Autocracy. It's outright worse than the current bundle and few issues are really fixed. I wouldn't say those changes are relatively agreed upon as they seem to have pretty much nothing to do with the discussion in the Autocracy thread and seem a bit random to be honest, like making Autarky even worse somehow which nobody asked for. Seriously, you're a warmongerer - with old one, at this point you might have 20-50 cities on standard. That's 60-150 production, and some gold from internal trade routes, as compared to the benefits from trade routes and a heavy penalty to trading with others. If you're Venice it's maybe a buff, but Venice will be going Freedom for 4 trade routes, not even paying this one any attention.

    Lightning Warfare is pretty much unpickable, United Front (often considered the worst) is unchanged, NWO's change doesn't change much, MIC will still be first picked, etc. It's probably better MIC is still first picked but Autocracy as a bundle is not OP than it receives the LW treatment (I doubt anybody wants that) because it's one of the reasons to not just go Order, and if Autocracy lost that too, I can't see myself not going Order instead for warmongering needs. Gunboat as it is is nothing but lots of text still as the policy is pretty much only +40 influence from gifts and features that don't actually work to make you more than Friends (and/or require more than they're worth) so it's still an easy F. Autocracy thread explained why the policy doesn't really work as it is, basically -1000 penalty ruins any hope of tributing to become more than friend.

    BWC is better than Nationalism and is C (obvious A if very coastal) though, but I've seen too many AIs who pick resource pantheons despite only having the resources around the capital - someone who picks that while only a small amount of his cities is coastal won't really benefit much if at all, and it might even be an F then. Total War is better than what it is now, but it's hard to say how good it is. This one might be good, though, especially if you're an Imperialist too. I like the synergy with unit gifts, but both unit gift policies still remain bad.

    I also question the runestone. Does it work on neutral tiles and roads? If not, people will be building roads in neutral area to pillage them. The UA still sucks but that's okay if UB carries it and it synergises in such a way. Thematic and fun, I like that, but in practice it could become either broken or unfun. This one will have to be tried.

    Overall I like most changes to Freedom and Order though not buffing Creative Expression to be better is a bit disappointing too because it's not going to be picked as it is (GAP are the worst yield, culture it gives is a joke even for Egypt), but Autocracy got hit a bit. Overall some steps in the right direction, but some that aren't, as is expected for a beta. I know however during the course it will most likely become way better, just like the last beta patch trail turned out right and for the better in the end.
     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2017
    Lucas A. and Gokudo01 like this.
  11. bigcat88

    bigcat88 King

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    736
    Gender:
    Male
    Don't see much buff of order. And again u will almost always first build factories and then get ideology...
    And New Deal will now give +3/2 buff or 2/3 to Towns? :crazyeye: Like changes to freedom, it looks so good now.

    No changes to open borders... :sad: why AI cant allow me to pass their borders for 50-100 gpt...
     
  12. Enginseer

    Enginseer Salientia of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2012
    Messages:
    3,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somewhere in California
    I believe it follows the same system as where you have to choose to settle or bulb as bulbing become influenced on how many times you settle your great people + your yields per turn rather than just yields per turn.
     
    LukaSlovenia29 likes this.
  13. Deadstarre

    Deadstarre Expert

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2015
    Messages:
    960
    Location:
    New York
    Like when everybody just agreed that zoos adding tourism to forest was bogus, then he goes ahead and changes the extra bonus tourism on zoo completion without addressing the issue at all. But if you take yourself out of the shoes of a "player", and put yourself into the shoes of a person who runs a bunch of simulated games looking at the overall end results, then some of his changes begin to make at least a little sense to you. It's the same reason he's probably not concerned about open borders right now, overall in sim games it's likely having the desired effect he was looking for, even though it's obviously untenable for somebody playing the game.

    All the random, needless changes that fail to hit the mark of issues sprinkled in every patch have this mod continuously moving in the wrong direction, just constantly making new problems to address. This mod needs the -community- put back into -vox populi-, have someone like ElliotS (or anyone who actually plays the game and knows whats up from a players perspective) be put in charge of the balancing, and if G wants to contribute he can continue to handle bugs and implement things like the fog of war change they just did, things that improve AI functions. Let G continue to do the things like that he's actually good at, and delegate some responsibility for the balancing aspect because he continues to show just time and time again balance isn't something he can get a grasp on.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 6, 2017
  14. LukaSlovenia29

    LukaSlovenia29 Emperor

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2016
    Messages:
    1,500
    Wow, Deadstarre, I strongly disagree with your post. The mod has been moving in a great direction and Gazebo's work has been great, including on introducing new features and balancing the game. Yes, the mod still has some kinks, but the mod is becoming better and better with each new version.
     
  15. Fujisan

    Fujisan Warlord

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2003
    Messages:
    130
    Gender:
    Male
    Does this mean that there is no difference between being the first and others any more?
     
  16. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2016
    Messages:
    5,362
    Location:
    Beijing
    Yea G is just the worst. Spending enormous amounts of his time to create something we can all use for free. Doing ridiculous things like proposing a set of changes and asking we tell him what we like or don't like. What a jerk, we should kick him out of the mod

    /s
     
    mikes61293, Lucas A., diaul and 5 others like this.
  17. Barak

    Barak Emperor

    Joined:
    May 1, 2003
    Messages:
    1,514
    Location:
    Chicago
    "First adopters now only get 1 free tenet - used to be 2"

    With this change there seems to be no advantage to founding an ideology. Why wouldn't everyone just pick the same one as everyone else?
     
    bigcat88 likes this.
  18. bigcat88

    bigcat88 King

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2016
    Messages:
    736
    Gender:
    Male
    I think tuning ideologies is a bit more complex then just one patch. So after 2-3 patches they will become balanced. Cause I cant understand changes to autocracy without 2-3 new games.
     
    Lucas A. likes this.
  19. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2010
    Messages:
    18,033
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Little Rock
    My reply is to both you and Enrico, since your commentary is similar (and appreciated). As an aside, I never take criticism of mod changes personally. Why would I? I only take it personally if someone makes it personal, which is silly.

    In any case, yeah, Autocracy is nerfed in this outline (code hasn't been written yet, this is just a draft). Why? Because war is a zero-sum game, and tenets that make late-game war virtually trivial for the player take away any amount of challenge. If the game, up to ideologies, requires hard choices and decisions, and suddenly you can just say 'screw it,' grab autocracy + lightning warfare + any other tenet and steamroll your neighbors (ignoring diplo penalties, etc)...that kinda defeats the point of turns 0-300 no, right?

    Autarky is tough. I don't love my rewrite, but I also find that yet more base yields to cities is a really boring solution. A buff to international and internal trade routes at least generates player choices and can be used in interesting ways.

    United Front and Gunboat are buffed versions of their former selves. And yes, the 'increase influence from bullying' is a bear, as I'd have to teach the AI. Happy to consider other solutions, but AI work takes a lot of time.

    G
     
  20. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2002
    Messages:
    8,273
    Location:
    Venice, California
    Right.
     

Share This Page