That looks like a good city location (although we may want to move it 1 SW - depends on what else is around), but based on what we see, it won't be a settler factory until we reach Republic. The main item that makes a settler factory is food - a settler costs 2 pop, so you can only produce 1 settler every time your pop increases 2. Since there is no food bonus in sight (fish don't count as a bonus while we are in despotism), it can only grow once every 10 turns (every 5 with a granary), it can only produce one settler every 20 turns (10 with granary).
The next few turns...
- Thread starter Chamnix
- Start date
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
That does look like a good city location but not better than the river/tabacco tile up north.
Are you advocating changing the location for city #4?
(I'm open to hear but not convinced yet!)
Are you advocating changing the location for city #4?
(I'm open to hear but not convinced yet!)
Meleager
Stoned as a Statue
The seaside city location will provide another quick city with low corruption. The tobaco city would provide us with another lux and some territory grabbing.
If we go seaside we must go tobbaco next.
I am actually inclined to go tobbaco.
If we go seaside we must go tobbaco next.
I am actually inclined to go tobbaco.
I don't think tobacco is a luxury (?) I think we had a consensus of settling near the tobacco next. I'm not sure if Feaurius meant to reopen the discussion of the next city or if he was talking about the city after the next one, but unless there are strong opinions to change, I think we should stick with the original plan.
fe3333au
Deity
Just saw all the fish and got excited ... forgot about our Govt 
Meleager
Stoned as a Statue
Chamnix said:
well that wasn't very wise on fraxis part then wasn't it
Time for some more strategic planning
we still need more of everything immediately, but here is how I see our cities in order of priority:
Athens Athens will complete its settler, then start a granary. Immediately upon completion of the granary, it will be ready to operate as a 4-turn warrior + settler factory (warrior first). IMO, getting this going is our highest priority, and everything else is a distant second. I recommend a double forest chop to get this ASAP Jarom will chop the forest on grassland directly to his east (and, Meleet willing, we will uncover a BG there). Rambuchan, upon completing his road will chop the plains forest to his southeast. This chop will also clear a path so we can eventually irrigate the plains around Heron. The downside is that the terrain around Heron will not be improved as quickly since we are using workers for Athens, but as I said, I think Athens comes first right now. I set up a spreadsheet to calculate the fastest way to get the granary with the double chop and without waste, but it is on my home computer so I will have to attach it here later.
The Black Hole In the short term, The Black Hole will continue to use the wheat and produce workers until our new town is ready to take those duties. We will be able to produce a worker every 5 turns, and once the wheat is irrigated, we should be able to produce a worker every 4 turns. Once the new city is able to produce workers fairly quickly, The Black Hole will change to military.
Heron This one is questionable. After it completes its worker (I still think a worker is necessary next since it has so much terrain improvement needed), I was thinking barracks next, but now I am torn between barracks and warrior next. Long-term, we definitely want a barracks there to produce veteran military. Short-term, we need military we dont really need strong military because I dont see KISS as an imminent threat, but we need numbers barb protection (in particular to protect our improvements when we pop that hut that is stuck in our craw), also to explore the area to the N/NE of Athens so we can plan city placement, and it would be nice to have 2 warriors garrisoned in Athens so we can turn down luxury spending and increase science. Having a barracks will also cost us 1 gpt cutting into science spending. I am interested in hearing what everyone else thinks Heron should do.
New Town This town was planned to go in the tobacco fields, and I dont see any urgent reason to change that. At first it will produce 10 turn workers, but once the terrain is improved, it will take the wheat from The Black Hole and should be capable of 4-turn workers.
Athens Athens will complete its settler, then start a granary. Immediately upon completion of the granary, it will be ready to operate as a 4-turn warrior + settler factory (warrior first). IMO, getting this going is our highest priority, and everything else is a distant second. I recommend a double forest chop to get this ASAP Jarom will chop the forest on grassland directly to his east (and, Meleet willing, we will uncover a BG there). Rambuchan, upon completing his road will chop the plains forest to his southeast. This chop will also clear a path so we can eventually irrigate the plains around Heron. The downside is that the terrain around Heron will not be improved as quickly since we are using workers for Athens, but as I said, I think Athens comes first right now. I set up a spreadsheet to calculate the fastest way to get the granary with the double chop and without waste, but it is on my home computer so I will have to attach it here later.
The Black Hole In the short term, The Black Hole will continue to use the wheat and produce workers until our new town is ready to take those duties. We will be able to produce a worker every 5 turns, and once the wheat is irrigated, we should be able to produce a worker every 4 turns. Once the new city is able to produce workers fairly quickly, The Black Hole will change to military.
Heron This one is questionable. After it completes its worker (I still think a worker is necessary next since it has so much terrain improvement needed), I was thinking barracks next, but now I am torn between barracks and warrior next. Long-term, we definitely want a barracks there to produce veteran military. Short-term, we need military we dont really need strong military because I dont see KISS as an imminent threat, but we need numbers barb protection (in particular to protect our improvements when we pop that hut that is stuck in our craw), also to explore the area to the N/NE of Athens so we can plan city placement, and it would be nice to have 2 warriors garrisoned in Athens so we can turn down luxury spending and increase science. Having a barracks will also cost us 1 gpt cutting into science spending. I am interested in hearing what everyone else thinks Heron should do.
New Town This town was planned to go in the tobacco fields, and I dont see any urgent reason to change that. At first it will produce 10 turn workers, but once the terrain is improved, it will take the wheat from The Black Hole and should be capable of 4-turn workers.
fe3333au
Deity
brilliant and your arguments are sound ...
Regarding Heron ... I would like a warrior asap ... if only to keep and eye and possibly guide the KISS tourist to a meeting with the local savages ...
Regarding Heron ... I would like a warrior asap ... if only to keep and eye and possibly guide the KISS tourist to a meeting with the local savages ...
General_W said:
Next turn luxuries should be at 0%, science at 100% (no towns with pop greater than 2, and every town will have ivory connected by the end of next turn).
General_W said:
Next turn:
Athens cow and wheat for growth in 1
Black Hole Wheat and Roaded BG (the road will be completed so we get the same gold and food by working the BG as the flood plains, and we will get an extra shield).
Heron R.M BG and regular BG.
General_W said:
Next turn:
Jarom chop
Rambuchan SE with an axe preparing to chop. Granary/settler factory is priority 1, 2, and 3 right now one of these days I will remember to post my Athens granary spreadsheet when I am home.
Imnzerg no move next turn but will head NW-W to irrigate and road the wheat next turn (there is no hurry to mine where he is once the road is there, then The Black Hole should have 2 uncorrupted shields, but the third shield will be corrupted anyway).
General_W said:
Absolutely explore the other coast. North or south on the other shoreline? We would prefer to meet TNT than to end up at the Donuts starting location. Any chance our foreign ministry can get Donuts to divulge the general direction to their homeland, so we can go the other way and hopefully meet TNT?
General_W said:
Settle on location E on this post (W-W-N of The Black Hole). Who names this one?
General_W said:
Lets go a poppin.
If I may make a request of our Defense Minister also, please have Butes escort the settler by ending each turn with Butes 1 tile in front of our settler that way if barbs attack, and he dies, then the settler still has time to flee to safety instead of dying with him.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
As always - excellent analysis Chamnix!
I like this plan very much
As for this:
(and as such, I would advocate sailing that direction.)
Am I missing something?
I like this plan very much
As for this:
I agree but I don't think we need to wrangle much out of D'nuts it only makes sense that they came from the south end of their Continent. If you factor in the time to build a Curragh (even if that was their first build) and assuming that Rik has made things as balanced as they continue to appear to be the only logical conclusion is that TNT is in the North.
(and as such, I would advocate sailing that direction.)
Am I missing something?
You are probably right, but it is tough to know for sure. We were figuring they had been sailing for something like 24 turns. We have only been sailing for a few, and it seems either end of the other continent might be reachable in another 20. I'll wait for peter grimes' opinion since he is the one who put the most thought into this already.
Quick thoughts (no time for detail right now)...
Luxuries will have to go back to 10% next turn.
Imnzerg definitely to the wheat (the extra shield from mining would be corrupt anyway).
Athens works cow, wheat, and mined BG.
What Heron builds next is an interesting question... I think we need a warrior most, but there are definitely arguments for barracks or curragh.
New worker from Heron should probably move north to BG, but if we are building a barracks next or a warrior then barracks, it is possible that moving to the forest to chop is better.
I'm still not convinced that the Donuts are south and TNT north - I hope the Donuts will eventually talk to us and maybe provide a hint.
Luxuries will have to go back to 10% next turn.
Imnzerg definitely to the wheat (the extra shield from mining would be corrupt anyway).
Athens works cow, wheat, and mined BG.
What Heron builds next is an interesting question... I think we need a warrior most, but there are definitely arguments for barracks or curragh.
New worker from Heron should probably move north to BG, but if we are building a barracks next or a warrior then barracks, it is possible that moving to the forest to chop is better.
I'm still not convinced that the Donuts are south and TNT north - I hope the Donuts will eventually talk to us and maybe provide a hint.
fe3333au
Deity
Next Curragh can wait until be can load with a warrior to pop the goody hut on the coastal mountain schpitzering out from the new world ... so I'd say warrior ... that way we can pop the eastern coastal hut ... I just don't want KISS popping our huts ...
Curraghs can't carry units - we will not be able to bring a warrior over there until Map Making. The reason for considering a curragh next is to send one in each direction around the other continent to be certain of meeting TNT timely.
this is from chamnix's strategic post above, musing about the future of Heron
How many turns until Athens gets back to warrior/settler? Does that impact the timing of a barracks? I can't figure out if there is any advantage to a barracks at this point.
It goes against every impulse I have, but I really can't seem to justify the expense of the lost science to a barracks producing units we may not need for a couple dozen turns.
How many turns until Athens gets back to warrior/settler? Does that impact the timing of a barracks? I can't figure out if there is any advantage to a barracks at this point.
It goes against every impulse I have, but I really can't seem to justify the expense of the lost science to a barracks producing units we may not need for a couple dozen turns.
Or, now that the road to TBH is complete, would it make more sense for TBH to be our military factory, and switch Heron to worker production?
Athens should have its granary in 7 turns (thanks to the double forest chop) and will be set to build a 1-turn warrior next followed by a 3-turn settler.peter grimes said:
Heron will never be able to build enough workers because it doesn't have enough food - it can only grow once every 10 turns so it can only build a worker at most once every 10 turns. The Black Hole will have to stay on worker duty until our soon-to-be-founded city is improved enough to take on that responsibility (minimum of about 15 turns away).peter grimes said:
I guess part of the question of barracks vs. warrior comes down to our long-range military plans. Do we believe there will be war (with KISS or overseas) before the Middle Ages? If not, do we expect to fight with Medieval Infantry or Knights (or Cavalry eventually)?
If we expect early war, then we probably want veteran warriors to upgrade to swords and should build a barracks first. Same thing if we plan to fight with Medieval Infantry.
If our plan is to use mounted units, then a lot of our warriors will never be upgraded and will probably just be disbanded when we reach Republic (unit costs). In that case, we should just build regular warriors for now and make sure we have a barracks ready around the time we hook up horses so we can build veteran chariots or horsemen for upgrade.
Second part of the question is, how soon do we want (or need) to settle near the iron? I know classical_hero has mentioned that as an absolute must in his platform for Domestic Minister. In order to do that, I think we need an absolute minimum of 3 warriors in the homeland area to protect our workers and terrain improvements from the potential popped barbs. If we build a barracks first, then we will not get any warriors from Heron very soon, and it will be 9 turns after the granary completes (16 total turns from now) before we have 3 more warriors, and that assumes that either we will not send them out with settlers, or they will have time to return before founding Iron City.
General_W
Councilor & Merlot Noble
Being on the cusp of many potential changes in leadership makes long range planning a little bit more difficult but I'd like to just make a couple quick comments:
1) First of all, any Long Range discussion should probably be kept to their respective threads with tweaks, adjustments, and implementation discussed in this thread. Otherwise we risk having this become the thread for everything! Chamnix in that spirit, I will copy some of your comments over the Defense thread and write my comments there.
2) Even with the above comments I know why you brought all that up here we need to make some of these decisions for the next turn!
So here's where I'm at:
We've got to gamble no matter how you look at it. Weak Military: We risk an early sneak attack. Strong Military: We risk getting left in the dust in land grabbing.
I think our greater risk at this time is falling behind in cities and therefore advocate holding off any barracks. What about some warriors (or some hoplites). I'm not thinking of anything else that Heron could be doing that would be of more use right now and some MP warriors or hoplites could free up some extra cash for Science. Those military support points we have are just going to waste right now.
1) First of all, any Long Range discussion should probably be kept to their respective threads with tweaks, adjustments, and implementation discussed in this thread. Otherwise we risk having this become the thread for everything! Chamnix in that spirit, I will copy some of your comments over the Defense thread and write my comments there.
2) Even with the above comments I know why you brought all that up here we need to make some of these decisions for the next turn!
So here's where I'm at:
We've got to gamble no matter how you look at it. Weak Military: We risk an early sneak attack. Strong Military: We risk getting left in the dust in land grabbing.
I think our greater risk at this time is falling behind in cities and therefore advocate holding off any barracks. What about some warriors (or some hoplites). I'm not thinking of anything else that Heron could be doing that would be of more use right now and some MP warriors or hoplites could free up some extra cash for Science. Those military support points we have are just going to waste right now.
General_W said:
I believe Imnzerg should road first:
If I am calculating correctly, then if he irrigates first, he will complete when The Black Hole already has 4 food in the bin. So irrigating first will have absolutely no effect on the growth of The Black Hole. It will enable our new city to work the wheat for 1 turn (since The Black Hole won't need it every turn) and reach size 2 a turn earlier. This has no short term advantage to us due to corruption, but we would have 2 extra food in the bin long-term.
If we road first, we gain 4 gold by having the road earlier. So the question is, would we rather have 2 extra food in our soon-to-be-founded town, or 4 extra gold toward science? Although I almost never turn down food early in the game, it will be some time before our new town is productive, so I would opt for the gold in this case.
M4 Sherman I think should also road, but it really depends on what we are building in Heron. If we are going warrior-warrior, then we only need 3-3-2-2 shields to get there. Athens will be able to use the mined BG for 2 turns (it will need it once it gets to size 4) and Heron will work the BG that M4 Sherman is on. Since Heron only needs 2 shields for 2 turns, mining won't help so we should get the extra gold from roading.
Unfortunately, it gets confusing fast once Athens reaches warrior-settler mode, and I cannot guarantee the mine will be done on time if we road first, but I think roading first is better (if we go warrior-warrior in Heron).
General_W said:
The questions from classical_hero in the Domestic Ministry thread have really made me scrutinize my Athens spreadsheet to determine if we could squeeze out the granary any faster. The answer is yes, we can get it one turn faster, but I am not sure it is worth it: from my original plan (called plan A for reference), the granary will be done in 5 turns (we have 10 shields now, we will get 20 from forest chops, and we will gain 5+6+7+5+7 to complete the granary with no overrun). We can get the granary in 4 turns (10+20+5+7+9+9) if we want (Plan B). However, that will leave us with less food in the bin, and we will not be able to start the warrior+settler factory right away. We can build a 2-turn warrior, but then we just lost the turn we gained by building the granary earlier, and we paid maintenance on the granary for a turn, so that is clearly worse.
A different alternative for Plan B would be to build a curragh instead of the first warrior and then we will be right back on schedule. The plus side is we get a curragh instead of a warrior (called a plus just because a curragh is 15 shields and a warrior 10 Im not sure we would prefer a curragh to a warrior right now). The downside is we lose 4 gold total (3 because we are forced to work lower income tiles and 1 from having the granary earlier).
So, the question is, after we complete the granary, do we build a warrior next and have 4 extra gold, or do we build a curragh next? Whichever we choose, a settler will be immediately following and will be done at the same time either way.
Personally, I vote warrior (and gold) in which case we should now work cow, wheat, and ivory next turn (if we are taking 5 turns to build the granary, then working the mined BG will mean we build a 62-shield granary we are better off dropping a shield and getting the extra gold). If we are going for the earlier granary followed by curragh, then the citizens should stay as they are (we need that shield to get the granary in 4).
General_W said:
Does this matter? Once KISS has traveled over that part of the map, wont our city just appear on their map regardless of where their warrior is now, or am I missing something?
General_W said:
Keep those workers coming.
General_W said:
Multiplayer is odd will we be able to see if he uncovers a bonus grassland next turn even though he cant move? If we will, Ill wait until we know before I think about what to do next. If not, then Ill have to figure out if we do something different depending on what we see.
General_W said:
The new worker from The Black Hole he should go SE and mine the BG. I know I said before that there was no urgency to getting that mined, but that is because we are currently producing 5-turn workers from The Black Hole. Once the wheat is irrigated, then we want 4-turn workers, and to do that, we need that mined.
