The Official Ron Paul Thread(We Have Too Many Threads on Him, lets consolidate them)

Look at Switzerland. They are democratic, and that is why they have one of the lowest levels of corruption.

Nah. Democracy vs. dictatorship corruption is a given. BUT... In regards to Swiss corruption compared to other democracies:

They have one of the lowest levels of population and thus smallest governments - that's why they have one of the lowest levels of corruption.

Population of Switzerland: 7.5m
Population of the US: 300m

The bigger the government, the less efficient and more corrupt. It's a simple matter of middle-men taking their cut.
 
Toss up between Thompson/Huckabee...with Romney a distant third...and way futher out in the field I would actually seriously consider voting for Bill Richardson (if he had a chance in hell of getting the democrat nomination).
Are you willing to put up $20 if I gave you 3 candidates (Thompson, Huckabee, and Richardson). If one of them gets the nomination of their party, you win. If none of them do, I win. I'll even give you $40 if Richardson gets the Dem nod and either Huckebee or Thompson gets the GOP nod. Surely, its a better proposition than the Ron Paul bet you keep chiding those poor, Ron Paul followers over. Maybe you can set an example for them.
 
Yeah, they probably woulda been more focused on killing brown people.

The german empire (1871-1918) was a constituional monarchy just like Great Britain. The closest they had to genocidal policies were in their colonies for example the treatment of the heroro people however that being sad they were no worse than any other colonial power for example Great Britain.

If the US had not intervened in WWI it's debatable whether it would've been a German victory, probably not actually. But Germnay wouldn't have been crushed, the German empire would still exist, the treaty of Brest Litovsk would have been in force. The Germans would probably intervene for the white side (which they did up to the armistice especially in Finland). Germany would the proabably continue its development towards democracies, just like all the other monarchies in Europe and would definentely not elect Hitler hence no WWII. The US intervention in WWI was one of the greatest misstakes in the 20th century.
 
Oil.

Preventing extremists from getting NUKES.

Why would we need to worry about exteremists, if we were not interefering in their domestic policies?

Why would we need to worry about oil? We have huge muscle as being the biggest consumer. Oil is so expensive right now for 2 reasons:

1. the iraqi spicket is still broken
2. Our dollar is being turned into toilet paper


All governments have corruption. The USA isn't particularly corrupt.

Watch iraq for sale.

The cost for WWII adjusted in 1990 dollars, was $2 trillion. Iraq is already nearing $1.2 trillion.... yet we are fighting just one country of 27 million, not 3 major world military powers.

the military industrial complex is sucking us dry. It is incredibly corrupt.
 
Why would we need to worry about exteremists, if we were not interefering in their domestic policies?

Because they are extremists.

Why would we need to worry about oil? We have huge muscle as being the biggest consumer. Oil is so expensive right now for 2 reasons:

1. the iraqi spicket is still broken
2. Our dollar is being turned into toilet paper
You left out China and India and speculators. Iraq's spicket wasn't a factor in oil prices for years why is it so important now? Oh and this thing called OPEC.
 
Problems I have with Dr. Paul:
-Some of his economic policies would make the Fed meaningless, and even if he can't achieve those goals, it's a bad signal
-His immigration stance: he opposes illegal immigration, but I've never seen him talk about relaxing the quotas or simplifying the immigration process.
-He opposes Net Neutrality. It's not a major concern, but it is a bad signal.
.

I guess I don't understand why we need the Fed in the first place. I think his opposition to the Fed and his desire for the gold standard are too separate issues. I am in favor of returning the creation of money to Congress and the Treasury Department. I don't support returning to the gold standard because I don't think it's practical. I also disagree with his belief that fiat money is unconstitutional. The Constitution forbids the states from creating fiat money but does not have a similar prohibition for Congress. The United States Note is a fiat currency that is debt free and could be issued by the Treasury Department to replace Federal Reserve Notes.

I agree that he should probably elaborate more on what should be done to reform immigration laws to make it easier for foreigners to live here legally. I've always felt it was a bit unfair that foreigners are required to know more about US history and civics than most natural born citizens. I think we're still big enough to be a melting pot. Diversity is what has made our country great.

As for Net Neutrality, I think part of his opposition comes from not completely understanding the technical aspects. He also tends to distrust government regulation, especially when directed towards the Internet. I myself fail to understand exactly what problem Net Neutrality is supposed to solve.
 
The German empire (1871-1918) was a constitutional monarchy just like Great Britain. The closest they had to genocidal policies were in their colonies for example the treatment of the heroro people however that being sad they were no worse than any other colonial power for example Great Britain.

If the US had not intervened in WWI it's debatable whether it would've been a German victory, probably not actually. But Germany wouldn't have been crushed, the German empire would still exist, the treaty of Brest Litovsk would have been in force. The Germans would probably intervene for the white side (which they did up to the armistice especially in Finland). Germany would the probably continue its development towards democracies, just like all the other monarchies in Europe and would definitely not elect Hitler hence no WWII. The US intervention in WWI was one of the greatest mistakes in the 20th century.

I see we both agree completly. :)
 
#1. He seems like he wants us to go back to the isolationist policy of 100 years ago, which failed badly then, and is impossible to maintain now, due to the War on Terrorism.

He is not an Isolationist. There is a very distinct difference.

Isolationist Non-Interventionist

Why is it vital for America's interests to be a super power that bullies the world? I have no doubt that Ron Paul would react to threats in much the same way as Jeffferson did when American shipping was threatened. I think the main difference is that he would seek the approval of Congress first unless there was an immediate threat. The key issue is what constitutes American interest? I used to be of the opinion that ousting Saddam from Kuwait was in our interest. I've since become aware of facts that make me question whether or not a steady supply of Middle East oil is something that we absolutely need to fight over. The fact is that of the 66% of imported oil, only about 15-20% comes from the Middle East. The rest comes from a number of other places but mostly from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. Seeing as how the US is a major market for oil, I don't think it really matters who controls it, they are still likely to sell to us since having a market is in their best interest.

#2, He wants us out of Iraq yesterday!

I was against the war in Iraq from the beginning because I didn't buy into the bag of goods being sold to the American people. It never made any sense to me that somebody like Saddam who was known for his paranoia would ever trust a terrorist organization with a nuke. He was always pretty secular and distrustful of the mullahs despite his convenient occasional use of Islam to rally the people against America. Most of that was to keep them focused outside rather than inside.

Having said all of that, there is a part of me that does feel a moral obligation because of complacency. The American people should have forced a debate in Congress rather than allow them to pass the buck to Bush. As I expected would happen, they now blame him and try to say they were deceived. They were willingly deceived.

It amazes me that despite all the inconsistencies in policy, people still think we are fighting a war on terror. We hand billions of dollars to Pakistan, a nation that already has nukes, despite the fact that Al Qaeda lives in their backyard and Musharraf seems to do little to hunt them down. We then rail against Iran, a nation that has yet to actually produce a nuke. The more we threaten them, the more incentive they have to produce a nuke for self preservation. America has shown we respect and subsidize those who have nukes. We run over those who don't.

It has been suggested that the war on terror is global and that it is somehow America's responsibility as the world's policeman. American meddling does more harm than good. It is American meddling that eventually resulted in the establishment of Iran's Islamic Republic. American meddling then resulted in Saddam building his war machine. American meddling lead to the Taliban. See a pattern here?

Consider the alternative. We back off and give Iran some breathing room. Maybe they build a nuke and maybe they don't. What does the Iranian government gain by giving Al Qaeda a nuke? The utter destruction of their land and people? The extremists might be suicidal but I don't happen to believe that the officials in charge are that nuts. Instead of sanctioning, we begin to trade and talk directly. American goods find their way into Iran. The removal of trade barriers and the absence of American bullying allows the Iranian economy to thrive. Over time the standard of living improves. As that happens, they demand more and more freedom as often happens when a society gets richer. That is what is happening in China right now. It has been true in Vietnam. Would they ever be a shining example of democracy? Probably not. Forcing them into democracy isn't going to accomplish anything either.
 
Why would we need to worry about exteremists, if we were not interefering in their domestic policies?

Because their foreign policy = "death to America"? I seriously doubt that they would go without an enemy, given the need for one in a dictatorship.


1. the iraqi spicket is still broken

Not really

Figure2-36HiRes.jpg

http://www.sigir.mil/reports/quarterlyreports/Oct07/figures.aspx

2.2/2.6 = 85% of production capacity is online. A 15% reduction of Iraqi oil hardly has an impact on oil prices. After all, prices were not so high last year, when Iraqi oil production was less.

Gas prices in the US have almost reached those of Europe, Africa, and S. America. Gas is still cheap here, globally speaking.
 
He is not an Isolationist. There is a very distinct difference.

Isolationist Non-Interventionist

Why is it vital for America's interests to be a super power that bullies the world? I have no doubt that Ron Paul would react to threats in much the same way as Jeffferson did when American shipping was threatened. I think the main difference is that he would seek the approval of Congress first unless there was an immediate threat. The key issue is what constitutes American interest? I used to be of the opinion that ousting Saddam from Kuwait was in our interest. I've since become aware of facts that make me question whether or not a steady supply of Middle East oil is something that we absolutely need to fight over. The fact is that of the 66% of imported oil, only about 15-20% comes from the Middle East. The rest comes from a number of other places but mostly from Canada, Mexico, and Venezuela. Seeing as how the US is a major market for oil, I don't think it really matters who controls it, they are still likely to sell to us since having a market is in their best interest.



I was against the war in Iraq from the beginning because I didn't buy into the bag of goods being sold to the American people. It never made any sense to me that somebody like Saddam who was known for his paranoia would ever trust a terrorist organization with a nuke. He was always pretty secular and distrustful of the mullahs despite his convenient occasional use of Islam to rally the people against America. Most of that was to keep them focused outside rather than inside.

Having said all of that, there is a part of me that does feel a moral obligation because of complacency. The American people should have forced a debate in Congress rather than allow them to pass the buck to Bush. As I expected would happen, they now blame him and try to say they were deceived. They were willingly deceived.

It amazes me that despite all the inconsistencies in policy, people still think we are fighting a war on terror. We hand billions of dollars to Pakistan, a nation that already has nukes, despite the fact that Al Qaeda lives in their backyard and Musharraf seems to do little to hunt them down. We then rail against Iran, a nation that has yet to actually produce a nuke. The more we threaten them, the more incentive they have to produce a nuke for self preservation. America has shown we respect and subsidize those who have nukes. We run over those who don't.

It has been suggested that the war on terror is global and that it is somehow America's responsibility as the world's policeman. American meddling does more harm than good. It is American meddling that eventually resulted in the establishment of Iran's Islamic Republic. American meddling then resulted in Saddam building his war machine. American meddling lead to the Taliban. See a pattern here?

Consider the alternative. We back off and give Iran some breathing room. Maybe they build a nuke and maybe they don't. What does the Iranian government gain by giving Al Qaeda a nuke? The utter destruction of their land and people? The extremists might be suicidal but I don't happen to believe that the officials in charge are that nuts. Instead of sanctioning, we begin to trade and talk directly. American goods find their way into Iran. The removal of trade barriers and the absence of American bullying allows the Iranian economy to thrive. Over time the standard of living improves. As that happens, they demand more and more freedom as often happens when a society gets richer. That is what is happening in China right now. It has been true in Vietnam. Would they ever be a shining example of democracy? Probably not. Forcing them into democracy isn't going to accomplish anything either.

I totally agree except for the first point. Sometimes, intervention is required. I'm not saying our current situation requires it, but I do not like Ron Paul's stance. He does not make exceptions or point out contingencies where US intervention is beneficial to all parties.
 
Because their foreign policy = "death to America"?

:rolleyes:


2.2/2.6 = 85% of production capacity is online. A 15% reduction of Iraqi oil hardly has an impact on oil prices. After all, prices were not so high last year, when Iraqi oil production was less.

:rolleyes:

You have no clue what you are talking about.
 
Those are the production numbers for Iraqi oil.

You can go on with your "rollie-eyes" all you want, but those are the production numbers. Right now, Iraq is producing oil at 2.158 million barrels per day. Like it or not, Iraqi oil production is at roughly 85% of production pre-invasion (not total capacity, but pre-war production levels - perhaps my missuse of that term caused confusion). It was less last year, and oil prices were lower... Where's the coorelation?

You say that oil prices are high because the Iraqi spicket is broken and I show you data that says it is at 85%. I also demonstrate that there is no coorelation between Iraqi oil production +/-5% and oil prices...

How much more proof do you want that you are wrong about this? I'm sure Iraq being down 15% in production has an impact, but not a significant one. Not when a change of 5% makes no discernable difference in the price of gas.

Perhaps you could provide a source to back up your claims instead of dismissing my evidence with "You don't know what you're talking about". Be a sport.
 
I totally agree except for the first point. Sometimes, intervention is required. I'm not saying our current situation requires it, but I do not like Ron Paul's stance. He does not make exceptions or point out contingencies where US intervention is beneficial to all parties.

So give an example of where American intervention would be necessary.

I would also point out that he has consistently said that Congress makes the decision to go to war. So if Congress felt that we should intervene by going to war with Nation X, they should pass a DoW and he would carry out those instructions. It would be his Constitutional duty as Commander-in-Chief.
 
So give an example of where American intervention would be necessary.

If the Taliban was about to take control of the Pakistani nuclear arsenal? The problem is, we would not be declaring war against Pakistan. Would you have congress pass a DoW on an organization, instead of a soverign nation? That seems a little shaky.

If Iran continues to develop nuclear weapons?

I would also point out that he has consistently said that Congress makes the decision to go to war. So if Congress felt that we should intervene by going to war with Nation X, they should pass a DoW and he would carry out those instructions. It would be his Constitutional duty as Commander-in-Chief.

True.

2002:

Washington, DC: Congressman Ron Paul, insisting that the House International Relations committee follow constitutional principles, yesterday introduced a formal congressional declaration of war with Iraq. The language of the declaration was very clear: "A state of war is declared to exist between the United States and the government of Iraq."

"I don’t believe in resolutions that cite the UN as authority for our military actions," Paul stated yesterday after a committee hearing. "America has a sovereign right to defend itself, and we don’t need UN permission or approval to act in the interests of American national security. The decision to go to war should be made by the U.S. Congress alone. Congress should give the President full warmaking authority, rather than binding him with resolutions designed to please our UN detractors."

"Sadly, the leadership of both parties on the International Relations committee fails to understand that the Constitution requires a congressional declaration of war before our troops are sent into battle," Paul continued. "One Republican member stated that the constitutional requirement that Congress declare war is an anachronism and should no longer be followed," while a Democratic member said that a declaration of war would be ‘frivolous.’ I don’t think most Americans believe our Constitution is outdated or frivolous, and they expect Congress to follow it."

"When Congress issued clear declarations of war against Japan and Germany during World War II, the nation was committed and victory was achieved," Paul concluded. "When Congress shirks its duty and avoids declaring war, as with Korea, and Vietnam, the nation is less committed and the goals are less clear. No lives should be lost in Iraq unless Congress expresses the clear will of the American people and votes yes or no on a declaration of war."
http://www.house.gov/paul/press/press2002/pr100402.htm
 
Be a sport.

15% reduction in oil from a huge oil producing country like Iraq is definitely enough to increase oil prices.

Not only that, but the constant need to repair sabotaged pipelines, makes the price go up.
 
15% reduction in oil from a huge oil producing country like Iraq is definitely enough to increase oil prices.

Not only that, but the constant need to repair sabotaged pipelines, makes the price go up.

In all fairness, The other oil producing countries upped production to compensate for Iraq, and are to an extent probably still are.
 
How come when it changes 5%, we do not see a coorelating change in price? I know, there's lag, but still... Iraqi oil production drops 5%, oil prices drop. Iraqi oil production increases 5%, oil prices increase... That's how it's been the last couple years.

In 2006, Iraq produced less oil, and prices were lower. In 2007, Iraq increased production by a some percent (no exact math for me at this hour), and oil prices increased.

Did someone else change their oil production?

:dunno:

Then there's OPEC... Does .4million barrels per day (15% of Iraqi pre-war production) impact global prices significantly? If so, I would estimate that is is barely significant (5% of current price, to use the term statistically) if not in the 1% impact range.

There must be more significant sources of rising oil prices. There's no way that Iraqi production is in the top10 of factors at 85% production.

Is Iraq really "a huge oil producing country" considering the other OPEC members?

AUG 2007, OPEC Production

Algeria 1.38
Angola 1.67
Indonesia .84
Iran 3.85
Iraq 1.95
Kuwait 2.45
Libya 1.72
Nigeria 2.20
Qatar .82
S Arabia 8.68
UAE 2.55
Venezuela 2.42
Total 30.53
OPEC 26.10
http://www.mees.com/Energy_Tables/crude-oil.htm

So, does .40 from Iraq have a signicant impact? I think not.

Should we include Russia, the US, and other non-OPEC nations and then compare the global total to .40?

EDIT: I agree with Damnyankee, I think other countries are comphensating for the shortage in Iraq as well, but really, for each to OPEC nation to increase production by .04 (.4/~10 countries) is not exactly difficult. It's not a significant strain on the system.

Personally, I wish gas prices were only 15% higher than pre-invasion. Environmentally, I think current prices should be doubled.
 
2.2/2.6 = 85% of production capacity is online. A 15% reduction of Iraqi oil hardly has an impact on oil prices. After all, prices were not so high last year, when Iraqi oil production was less.

Gas prices in the US have almost reached those of Europe, Africa, and S. America. Gas is still cheap here, globally speaking.
That's about 2.5 million barrels per day with sanctions going on and the country virtually blockaded. Peak Iraqi production was around 3.5 million barrels in 1990, and they hadn't even explored half the country for oil.

First Source I could find.
 
It's peak was 3.5, but that was in preparation for invading Kuwait and not sustainable.

EIA's oil industry experts generally assess Iraq's sustainable production capacity at no higher than about 2.8-2.9 million barrels per day, with net export potential of around 2.3-2.5 million barrels per day.
http://usgovinfo.about.com/library/weekly/aairaqioil.htm

I don't know about exploring Iraq to increase oil reserves, but I find it hard to believe that 1/2 the country was unexplored (for oil) in the late 20th century.

Yesterday's announcement by Brazil; however, proves that additional reserves (in huge quantity) can still be discovered (they increased their oil reserve by 40% yesterday). Full-on export nation now, Brazil's future has been altered significantly.
 
If the Taliban was about to take control of the Pakistani nuclear arsenal? The problem is, we would not be declaring war against Pakistan. Would you have congress pass a DoW on an organization, instead of a soverign nation? That seems a little shaky.

At first you suggest that the Taliban is an identifiable organization which could orchestrate the takeover of Pakistan and it's nuclear arsenal. If this is indeed the case, then I see no reason why Congress can't declare war against an organization if the people are in support of such a war. The problem comes in identifying who belongs to that organization.

People assume that those who live in the outlaw regions of Pakistan are united. This is just as unlikely in Pakistan as it was in Afghanistan. There tend to be a lot of factions involved which are split along tribal lines.

We also make the assumption that the Taliban would point their newly acquired arsenal at the US because we are their only enemy. This assumption overlooks the fact that Pakistan and India have long been mortal enemies pursuing a program of MAD with respect to each other. I am willing to bet that India would have more to fear from the rogue possession of nukes than the US.

If Iran continues to develop nuclear weapons?

Why should this concern the United States? We have our own nukes that could be used in retaliation if they are really that stupid as to use them against us. The same is true for Israel. The "threat" of a nuclear Iran has more to do with drumming up support for a potentially unpopular war than it does with any clear and present danger posed.

Several assumptions are made:

1. Iran is really pursuing a nuke rather than energy.

Maybe but the proof is hardly overwhelming.

2. Iran would use the nuke against us or Israel.

They would first need to acquire sufficient missile technology to reach the United States or act covertly to smuggle one into the country. There are a few more logistical hurdles to jump over than just walking onto a plane with a suitcase nuke. It might be remotely possible but it's hardly a rational reason for going to war. If we spent these billions of dollars on port and border security, as well as the Coast Guard, I think we would have much less to worry about.

As for Israel, why are we always expected to be their guardian? They have had nuclear technology for quite some time. I think they can take care of themselves. Let's not forget that nuking Israel would most likely result in the deaths of millions of Palestinians and other Islamic people. I don't think Syria and Jordan would be thrilled to have fallout coming across the border.
 
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